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Has anyone been paying attention to teh Dawkins, P.Z. Meyers, "Expelled" debacle?

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by Plummit, Mar 24, 2008.

  1. Plummit

    Plummit Monkey

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    The film makers conned Dawkins, Meyers, and several other science notables into giving interviews for the film by lying about what it was about. When Meyers later brought Dawkins as his guest to the premiere at the Mall of America (we are talking high production value here,) the producer and theater owner had the police ask Meyers to leave. Ironically, they didn't notice Dawkins and let him slip in.

    During the question and answer session after the showing, Dawkins apparently stood and asked the producer why he had one of the people featured in the film tossed from the venue. Indeed, Meyers, Dawkins and others are thanked in the credits for their appearances.

    The central tenet of the film is that there are hard working, god fearing "scientists" are out there making "discoveries" and running "experiments" that are yielding "evidence" of Intelligent Design. The real irony is that the movie claims that these "scientists" are being systematically "expelled," hence the name of the film, by the greater science community at large, and their work is being "suppressed."

    It's made the NYTimes, and many linked the the project, as in "Ben Stein's: Expelled." He's frequently a guest on cnbc, but i had no idea he was an I.D. freak. The always noxious "Discovery Institute" has taken the bait and entered the fray as well.
     

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  2. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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  3. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    I just saw this movie.


    Without a doubt the most disingenuous piece of shlt I've ever seen.

    Anyone who believes the well documented process of biological evolution is a godless heathen, just one step away from a nazi (yes, he really implies this), and ID proponents are honest scientists just victimized by a rock hard establishment who cannot question itself. Total Bullshlt.

    Just wanted to share that.
     
  4. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    I haven't seen it, now I have to.
     
  5. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Whatever you do, just make sure the morons who put this out receive no money.


    I got it on a 'watch now' feature from netflix.


    Seriously though. I'm compelled to make a better case for intelligent design myself. And I don't even buy the crap. But I know I could do a better job than these hacks. It's like they set out to do a movie and thought to themselves "let's appeal to the most uneducated demographic we can."


    edit: let wet your appetite
    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=ben-steins-expelled-review-john-rennie
     
    #5 -   Oct 27, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  6. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    Netflix at best, I wouldn't support it. I did have hopes due to the fact I enjoy Ben and his dry humor, though.
     
  7. vibiker

    vibiker Monkey

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    well documented? As in proven? From the plethora of transitional fossils? I know of at least one source that has a bounty for the first person to present one fossil. $10k I believe. So who claimed the prize?
     
  8. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    :busted:
     
  9. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    Man vs. dinosaur.

     
  10. MMike

    MMike A fowl peckerwood.

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    Ah of course! you don't believe in evolution either! That's awesome.....
     
  11. Plummit

    Plummit Monkey

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    Do you require a 'plethora' or will a whole bunch do?

    Of course, in a very real context, all living things, and the fossils and remains that were once living things are essentially 'transitional.' Perhaps next you'll start repeating talking points you've heard about 'fossil gaps.' I might as well ask you to document your complete lineage back to Adam and Eve.
     
    #11 -   Oct 28, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  12. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    I get the feeling you didn't spend a whole lot of time in science classes after high school. And I don't mean generally, I mean biology.
     
    #12 -   Oct 28, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  13. bohorec

    bohorec Monkey

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    It's usually entertaining that christians in America are using muslim sources in crusade against Darwin, however the fact that fanatics were successful in Turkey might rise some concerns.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ize-for-fossil-proof-of-evolution-945289.html

    To answer your question, here is the real proof:

    fossil
     
  14. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    And here's the best part.

    Pay attention now: You don't need fossils to verify the process of biological evolution. (although certainly nice to have)


    And just to clarify vbiker: when people who know what they're talking about use the term evolution, that's generally what they mean, the biological process. Not specifically the absolute origin of mankind in its current state. That's religion's job.
     
  15. bohorec

    bohorec Monkey

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    Well some forms of creationism denies evolution on all levels. I also remember some evolutionary ideas about origins of life on Earth from biology classes, none of them included fictional creatures.
     
  16. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    until you explain sporks using a scientific presentation to emily, it's a long road ahead.

    i see what you did there
     
  17. vibiker

    vibiker Monkey

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    One would do. Nice drawings over there.

    No argument that species evolve. Where are the interspecies fossils? We have millions of fossils of different species, some extinct, some not. But no transitional ones. So how do you explain "the gaps"?


    No argument from me about the absolute origin. That's not the point here.

    Bottom-line, science is not a democratic process. What is the specific proof of evolution?

    You might want to read a little of Michael Behe. The guy has had a few more Bio classes than me. Maybe even more than you.
     
  18. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    still a bone of contention for me is "have we accurately assessed what makes up an intermediate species?". in other words, we give a platypus its own designation, but would it not meet the definition for an intermediate species? i have no idea, and it doesn't keep me up @ night.


    oh, expect to be met w/ ad-hominem attacks when invoking behe; he's the only devil these lot believe in
     
  19. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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  20. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    You mean the guy who admitted that his definition of a scientific theory included astrology?

    Oh yes, he's a clever devil. Maybe when the fifth moon of Jupiter is ascendant over the fifth house of Mars, Xenu and Jesus will come back to earth and get married in California...
     
  21. Plummit

    Plummit Monkey

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    As I pointed out, in terms of what I take to be your beliefs, what you are asking for would be the equivalent of producing exact genealogical records of your lineage traced back to Adam and Eve, and preferably the Deity's birth certificate as well (or at the very least records of his birth at the town hall.)

    Quote below, bold is mine.
    Link
     
  22. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    What do you mean by "transitional" or "interspecies" fossils? If you find something morphologically different from what is already know to exist in the fossil record, it gets its own species designation. But the fact that we name things differently is only a result of our arbitrary naming system, simply for the sake of organization. Do yourself a favor and look into the concept of Cladistics.
    There's actually a very obvious path from the simple (Burgess Shale) to the very complex (living creatures today). And from the lobe finned fishes to the tetrapods like ourselves. The only means by which one can deny this is to claim "god put them there to test our faith" which is basically not worth debating.
    Something like a Lungfish (which still exist) is a perfect example of the transition from fish to tetrapod.
     
    #22 -   Oct 28, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  23. Westy

    Westy the teste

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  24. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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  25. Westy

    Westy the teste

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    It seems homo-erotic literature didn't evolve in modern times.
     
  26. vibiker

    vibiker Monkey

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    So what you are saying is that evolution is a belief system as well?


    Note that I am not trying to disprove evolution. I am just trying to see how you prove it. It is very difficult to prove a negative.

    So where are these transitional fossils that the Cal web site eludes to?
     
  27. Plummit

    Plummit Monkey

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    His own department at Lehigh University disavows his creationist/ID ideas:

    ... and I hear he's a jerk and has HORNS!
     
  28. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    That's good because overzealous spacktards have been trying to do so for the last 120 or so years and have come up empty. It's really a pretty solid theory compared to something like gravity.
     
  29. Plummit

    Plummit Monkey

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    If you don't understand the debate, change the question???
     
  30. johnbryanpeters

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    Y' don't prove anything.

    There are more or less useful models of "reality" which, if used while understanding their limitations, can improve, say, the likelihood that you'll survive a little longer.

    The scientific method provides a discipline for the evaluation of the usefulness of models.

    Evolution models have proved to be useful.

    Creationist models are useful if you desire comedy or tragedy, depending on how applied. :disgust1:

    That is all.
     
  31. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    There is a tunnel here in Portland that was dug for the train. They also cut an elevator from the train.

    In the tunnel, they took a sample of dirt from top to bottom, dated it, then mapped it. You can SEE the evolution from bottom to top while you wait for the next train.

    I believe that the dirt is actual dirt. So I guess it is a belief system in that respect.

    There is also a town in Oregon called Fossil. It's not just a clever name.
     
  32. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    so if classification is arbitrary, doesn't is also hold true our interpretation is as well? not trying to be a dick, but i'm trying to understand if we're going to point to exhibit B as the transitional species 'tween exhibits A & C, then we can dismiss the terms macro- and micro-evolution, as their thresholds are irrelevant.

    reaching back into formal grammatical frameworks, i have a segue: are there any species that ever fold in on themselves, like a->b->c->a, or some nonlinear combination of species a-N recombine to return to a? mathematically, it seems plausible, if indeed it is arbitrary.
     
  33. Secret Squirrel

    Secret Squirrel There is no Justice!

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    Excel only goes to Column IV. So, the answer seems to be yes.
     
  34. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    Yes

     
  35. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    are there studies/theories which map its genetic journey?
     
  36. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    mathematically, it is completely implausible. Do you understand chaos? It is as implausible as (actually less plausible than) the same two clouds ever existing.
     
  37. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    entropy, yes, yes.

    but for it to be implausible suggests there's some state data hashed in a table which says "cannot reproduce", which neither of us would suggest. i would, in fact, find it to be highly unlikely, but if we both understand the fundamentals of chaos, we have to believe there's an expectation of probability on a long enough time-line that it could re-exist (at least within the same "species" of cloud). so i take issue w/ your dissimilar analogy of 2 identical clouds ever existing, whereas they may not ever exist concurrently
     
  38. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    Yes, as a matter of fact, there is:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-platypus-dna_08may08,0,735091.story

     
  39. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    so it seems to me a species (as we categorize it) has 3 options: extinction, stasis, or evolution. so do anti-evolutionists purport there are imaginary boundaries beyond which a species may not venture genetically?

    seems a bit silly to me, but i'm just a man
     
  40. JohnE

    JohnE filthy rascist

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    ...if you come to the Monkey to answer your faith based questions, you are looking in the wrong place.