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Health Care Reform is Dead

boxxerace

Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
179
0
@ Japanese Gultch
Can we now talk about health insurance / care reform that does not involve wholesale takeover by the Federal Government? This discussion does not have to be the polar opposite either. I hope that the public "option" is not our only option.

"The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse." --James Madison
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
Can we now talk about health insurance / care reform that does not involve wholesale takeover by the Federal Government? This discussion does not have to be the polar opposite either. I hope that the public "option" is not our only option.

"The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse." --James Madison
Nice quote.

We can talk about it all day. Any ideas? I doubt it, since you don't seem to be aware that Obama hasn't been talking about wholesale takeover of health care by the Federal Government at any time.

Maybe we can look at the real world and see what other countries do? Maybe there are ones out there that pay less for healthcare and have better incomes? Just a thought...
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,554
488
Im over here now
Can we now talk about health insurance / care reform that does not involve wholesale takeover by the Federal Government?
they seem to not know any other way. look at the auto industry and finance industry.
i guess our government is in the business business.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
they seem to not know any other way. look at the auto industry and finance industry.
i guess our government is in the business business.
Please. None of the banks are being run by the government. Neither are the auto companies or airlines.

Tell me you're not making the case that the finance industry was nationalized...
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
Please. None of the banks are being run by the government. Neither are the auto companies or airlines.

Tell me you're not making the case that the finance industry was nationalized...
they seem to not know any other way. look at the auto industry and finance industry.
i guess our government is in the business business.
Also the finance industry is a result of lack of regulation - the free market failed and helped push the auto industry over in a perfect storm. The fundamentals of the economy were not strong and a vast majority of economists slammed the Bush administration for its stupidity back in 2003. You have to economic theory based in economics just like you need a science policy/advisor based in science.

Its a massive cleanup of the last administration, not the present. Doing nothing would business as usual. Its true that lobbies and politics are a big portion - you will pay more for health now that you are too stupid to check in to the issue for yourself. The American people won't see much if any justice against prior administration officials who violated numerous laws without any question and wasted money in a multi trillion dollar war they started with prior known proven fabrications. Bravo you mindless jackasses, way to keep your eye on the prize:weee:

Next lets bitch about illegal immigration which is concretely shown to cause a economic surplus. We don't want that do we:rolleyes: No we just want to hear nutjobs (many of which are welfare) bitching about the major drain immigrants are causing with nothing to back up what they saying other than useless entertainment media sources.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,640
4
SF, CA
Also the finance industry is a result of lack of regulation
While I fall firmly on the government intervention side, the above is a misconception. The finance industry failed as the result of failing to enforce EXISTING regulation. After stabilization, we don't need new regulation, we just need real oversight and enforcement of the rules that were already there.

The problem was the Fed and SEC being in bed with private interests.

On healthcare, I've posted several times why this is a unique situation and if we're accepting the premise that we, as a society aren't going to let people die, than the private option doesn't work. From the opposition, I only see vague conceptual arguments about government power and bureacracy and personal responsibility... I have yet to see anything that describes specific problems or solutions, or demonstrates an understanding of:
a) how healthcare in America actually currently functions
b) what is actually in the current healthcare bill

To Pasqueeb, I do think healthcare reform in the US is on it's deathbed. I don't put nearly the blame on Obama that your article does. That sounded like a lot of anger from the typical breath-holders and foot-stompers.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
If the existing rules aren't enforced, that is lack of regulation as I said. I didn't say lack of or in need of new regulations.
 
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BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
To Pasqueeb, I do think healthcare reform in the US is on it's deathbed. I don't put nearly the blame on Obama that your article does. That sounded like a lot of anger from the typical breath-holders and foot-stompers.
So... we likely will never such reforms... or at least not in the near future. If not now, I dont see when the Dems will have this much power again.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,446
2,121
In my pants
So... we likely will never such reforms... or at least not in the near future. If not now, I dont see when the Dems will have this much power again.
I see a day, far beyond our lifetimes, when a new genetically engineered creature emerges from stem cells.


A democrat with a pair of testicles.
 
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ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,640
4
SF, CA
we likely will never such reforms...
It will take collapse. Literally, it will only happen when people feel very direct financial/lifestyle pain and become so angry they will no longer foot the bills of 90-year-old baby boomers who want $500k in ICU care (40 percent of Medicare dollars cover care for people in the last month) , and obese diabetics who refuse to address their lifestyles (est. $150B cost to the US), because those issues break through the cloud of ideological (and irrelevent) BS about private vs. public and just make people emotionally angry. Enough so that they'll start chucking the fat and old under the bus.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
1,069
4
PA
I see a day, far beyond our lifetimes, when a new genetically engineered creature emerges from stem cells.


A democrat with a pair of testicles.

Yeah, until we get a Dem that's willing to confront one of these assh***s with an assault rifle of their own, at one of their own rallies and a t-shirt that says " peace is for pvssies and I eat it daily " we might not see reform going anywhere.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/17/man-carrying-semi-automat_n_261279.html
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
obese diabetics who refuse to address their lifestyles (est. $150B cost to the US)
And thats small compared to cardiovascular disease which kills about 1.5 million according to the CDC. $500B+ cost to healthcare - 1/4 of the total cost. That does not include costs from other major health problems related to obesity (diabetes as you mentioned). Lifestyle changes would be huge since its not a drastic change to make a significant difference.

Beside healthcare they could place some regulations on the food industry so they aren't severely biasing profits over quality and health. Would you like to wash that down with some fine peanut butter and peppers?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
If you eat healthy and exercise your entire life, are you just supposed to die suddenly with no long term costs for care? Or is it still just the same, drawn out expensive process, only it starts later?
Cause if that's the case... why do I care that people are getting fat and dying young?
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
If you eat healthy and exercise your entire life, are you just supposed to die suddenly with no long term costs for care? Or is it still just the same, drawn out expensive process, only it starts later?
Cause if that's the case... why do I care that people are getting fat and dying young?
That view works with some diseases and makes sense, but not others. And who the hell is going put their weight behind it? Prevention rather than treatment after the fact has saved other countries money.

The food industry affects everyone since most companies are controlled by conglomerates these days and its time consuming and/or expensive to avoid their influence often. Why should poor people be condemned to be their on-going cost cutting food science experiment?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,640
4
SF, CA
If you eat healthy and exercise your entire life, are you just supposed to die suddenly with no long term costs for care? Or is it still just the same, drawn out expensive process, only it starts later?
Cause if that's the case... why do I care that people are getting fat and dying young?
To be clear, I'm not advocating cutting the obese and dying out of healthcare. I'm saying that the people are going to get real selfish, real fast, when the **** hits the fan and we're better off figuring out a way to get ahead of that event, than letting the angry lynch mob cut off the most expensive 10% (syadasti, totally agree that includes other diseases besides obesity and diabetes... I generally mean "complications from lifestyle choices rather than genetics").

IMO, the end-of-life counseling was one of the more important points (now gone) from Obama's plan, and I also think it is critical to introduce legislation/regulation that legalizes incentives for compliance and lifestyle. Right now that would be discrimination, but I'm convinced there is a way to fairly incentivize:
a) at minimum, compliance with treatment plans and regular check-ups, and,
b) at best, healthier lifestyle choices
...without discriminating against people who have genetic predispositions to illness.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
28,152
4,127
Riding the baggage carousel.
While I fall firmly on the government intervention side, the above is a misconception. The finance industry failed as the result of failing to enforce EXISTING regulation. After stabilization, we don't need new regulation, we just need real oversight and enforcement of the rules that were already there.

The problem was the Fed and SEC being in bed with private interests.

On healthcare, I've posted several times why this is a unique situation and if we're accepting the premise that we, as a society aren't going to let people die, than the private option doesn't work. From the opposition, I only see vague conceptual arguments about government power and bureaucracy and personal responsibility... I have yet to see anything that describes specific problems or solutions, or demonstrates an understanding of:
a) how healthcare in America actually currently functions
b) what is actually in the current healthcare bill

To Pesqueeb, I do think healthcare reform in the US is on it's deathbed. I don't put nearly the blame on Obama that your article does. That sounded like a lot of anger from the typical breath-holders and foot-stompers.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, except about placing blame on Obama. Maybe he should have thrown some weight around, spent some of that political capital. I recognize that too much presidential involvement is part of what killed health care in 1993. Does he deserve all of the blame? No, of course not, maybe half. The rest of the blame belongs on congress. I mean, if it cant be done now, when? When the fvck are we ever going to be in a position like this again to get real reform pushed through? Maybe I am a breath holding foot stomper, because I am pissed. Were really not going to get this done because the democrats can't sack up and tell the tinfoil hat crowd to go fvck themselves? I hate myself for saying it, but if Bush had wanted to do it he'd of shoved it right up our asses just like the "patriot" act, domestic wire taps, torture and the Iraqi war. And you know what? The Democrats laid down and let all that bullsh!t roll right over them too. Kidwoo is right, how many centuries do we have to wait for a democrat thats got a pair? Fvck! :banghead:

Is it time to go yet? I need a beer.
 
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kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,446
2,121
In my pants
IMO, the end-of-life counseling was one of the more important points (now gone) .
Wait, that's actually being stricken?


Jesus fvcking christ....

This is your democratic party: Too god damn lazy to actually explain something to a bunch of morons that will be beneficial......so just get rid of it so they shut up.


Mind boggling.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Wait, that's actually being stricken?


Jesus fvcking christ....

This is your democratic party: Too god damn lazy to actually explain something to a bunch of morons that will be beneficial......so just get rid of it so they shut up.


Mind boggling.
This is why nobody outside of the democrats in congress themselves actually claims to be a democrat. It's f*cking embarrassing.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,640
4
SF, CA

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,446
2,121
In my pants
Nonetheless, Senator Chuck Grassley, the Senate Finance Committee’s top Republican and one of six committee members trying to hash out a bipartisan bill, said yesterday that the provision could be misinterpreted and that it will not be contained in the committee’s proposed legislation.

Any two syllable word could be misinterpreted by the idiots bitching about this. How can anyone remove a provision that wasn't even being protested?

Fvck you grassley, and fvck all you other congressional half-wits.


Screw it. You know that part in the bill about pre-existing conditions no longer providing cause for recidivism?

I'm going to start saying that means the government is introducing cancer into your children's drinking water. You know.....the cancer virus. The government is trying to give your children cancer with this new bill. That's right.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
28,152
4,127
Riding the baggage carousel.
Cheer up everyone. I read this when I got home and it improved my mood substantially.
Walmart, Best Buy, CVS, and GMAC are among eight major advertisers that have confirmed pulling their advertising from Fox News' "Glenn Beck" program in light of his comments that President Obama is a racist.

The advertisers did not pull their spots from Fox News, but rather requested that their ads do not air during Beck's 5PM program.

The advertisers in the latest round of pull-out from Beck's show and their statements to ColorOfChange.org:

* Allergan (maker of Restasis): "We reviewed our commercial schedule, and based on your feedback, we've put any programming featuring Glenn Beck on our "do not air" list. This means that you will no longer see any Restasis ads during programming featuring Glenn Beck. Thanks again for bringing this to our attention."
* Ally Bank (a unit of GMAC Financial Services): "Ally advertises on a broad spectrum of programs to reach our potential customers. Our advertising is not an endorsement of editorial content on any program. We have ceased to advertise on the Glenn Beck program."
* Best Buy
* Broadview Security: "Given the considerations, we have requested of Fox News not to include us in the rotation that would have our commercials running on Glenn Beck's show."
* CVS: "While advertising on Fox is part of our communication plan, we had not requested time on Glenn Beck's show specifically. We have instructed our advertising agency to inform Fox to ensure Glenn Beck's program is not part of our advertising plan."
* Re-Bath: "...We are no longer airing our commercials on the Glenn Beck Show..."
* Travelocity: "We did not specifically place our ad on the show. We buy ads in bulk and then they are placed somewhat randomly. However, we have now specifically asked that our ads do not appear during this show."
* Wal-Mart: "Walmart today confirmed the retailer pulled ads from the Glenn Beck show on August 3rd,"

These companies join a growing list of advertisers to pull their ads from Beck's show, including ConAgra, GEICO, Lawyers.com, Men's Wearhouse, Procter & Gamble, Progressive Insurance, RadioShack, Roche, SC Johnson, Sanofi-Aventis, Sargento, and State Farm Insurance.
 

drkenan

anti-dentite
Oct 1, 2006
3,443
0
west asheville
ConAgra - one of the world's largest polluters and arguably the worst corporate criminal in history pulled their advertising on Glen Beck because he's being racist. :rofl:
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,130
251
Chapel Hill, NC
Sounds like it's going to stand. It may be heavily flawed, but it's a step in the right direction IMO. Maybe one day we will get to a single-payer system.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
28,152
4,127
Riding the baggage carousel.
Death Panel selection party @ Casa De Pesqueeb 1830! Socialist manifesto reading starts at 1900 followed by Margaritas and homosexual agenda until we run out of tequila or Focus on the Family shows up with the cops.