[Silver]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

For anyone who is bewildered at why the Iraqis seem to be resenting us more and more, this should help explain it. I haven't seen anything like this in the US media since the war started. I'd be willing to bet that the Iraqis see this every day though.

 

[MikeD]

I'm more bewildered at what asshole won't stop his car at an armed checkpoint with his f'in family in the car.

 

[jon cross]

With the car bombs and suicide runs that are being employed against US troops these men did what they had to do. There was no way to tell who or what was in that vehicle, only that it was rushing them and failed to yield to warning shots. Tragic, of course, but nothing that should be held against the soldiers.

 

[Silver]

I'm more bewildered at what asshole won't stop his car at an armed checkpoint with his f'in family in the car.

That's a good question, but it's not really my point. EDIT: I'm NOT blaming the soldiers here, at all. I totally understand why they shot the car.

The screaming blood covered girl is the issue here, along with a little of old fashioned US media criticism.

Fluff, do you ever see stuff like this involving British soldiers in the UK press, or is it just American soldiers?

 

[MikeD]

That's a good question, but it's not really my point.

Well, yeah, I know...but I'm not bewildered at all by the Iraqi resistance, so I guess that's all I had to say about the thread. I just got angry myself seeing those kids get shot, and I blame the driver of that car...

US troops aren't even supposed to fire warning shots...this guy got the benefit of them and kept coming. Makes you wonder. Then again, maybe he thought the warning shots were something else and accellerated to escape them. I doubt it, though.

MD

 

[Silver]

Personally, I'd hear shots and hit the gas as hard as I could. But then, I haven't been living in a war torn country lately. Maybe the guy was worried about getting killed by Iraqis if he stopped and talked to the patrol? Maybe he just panicked?

 

[MikeD]

Personally, I'd hear shots and hit the gas as hard as I could. But then, I haven't been living in a war torn country lately. Maybe the guy was worried about getting killed by Iraqis if he stopped and talked to the patrol? Maybe he just panicked?

Yep, and it's a lose/lose situation all around for all comers. Those soldiers have to live with what they did...easy enough to justify logically, but pulling bloody wounded kids out of a car in which you just shot their parents and perhaps maimed them is NOT a good thing to have to recall doing...the kids' lives, man, screwed up for good, and the PR damage to the American political cause in the Iraqi psyche...irreparable, like many of the day-to-day bad occurances in Iraq.

It's amazing that somehow, no one foresaw this...like we haven't been through it before, within living memory (Vietnam, Somalia). Yet, somehow, the American public is easily led to wanting blood and is utterly convinced that all wars will be as noble as WWII and as easily won as Gulf War I, just because we're American.

MD

 

[golgiaparatus]

I'm more bewildered at what asshole won't stop his car at an armed checkpoint with his f'in family in the car.

F'ing Word

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

It's amazing that somehow, no one foresaw this...like we haven't been through it before, within living memory (Vietnam, Somalia). Yet, somehow, the American public is easily led to wanting blood and is utterly convinced that all wars will be as noble as WWII and as easily won as Gulf War I, just because we're American.

MD

again...

..."Why, of course, the people don't want war".... "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

 

[DRB]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

For anyone who is bewildered at why the Iraqis seem to be resenting us more and more, this should help explain it. I haven't seen anything like this in the US media since the war started. I'd be willing to bet that the Iraqis see this every day though.

If an incident like this would cause them to resent us, wouldn't the daily car bombings claiming the lives of everyday Iraqis and shooting of Iraqis by the insurgentents do the samething?

 

[MikeD]

If an incident like this would cause them to resent us, wouldn't the daily car bombings claiming the lives of everyday Iraqis and shooting of Iraqis by the insurgentents do the samething?

No, they can blame those on our presence, too...pretty easy thing for them to do.

MD

 

[$tinkle]

from the looks of those pics, i believe we did reach both the hearts & minds of at least 2.

 

[Silver]

If an incident like this would cause them to resent us, wouldn't the daily car bombings claiming the lives of everyday Iraqis and shooting of Iraqis by the insurgentents do the samething?

I'm not saying that this will cause Iraqis to resent the US, that horse has left the barn.

I'm reminded on a quote from a South Park episode:

Kyle:
All right, I've had just about enough of this! They told us in school, and on TV, that most people in Pakistan and Afghanistan like America.
Boy in Blue Vest:
And you believe it? It is not just the Taliban that hates America. Over a third of the world hates America!
Stan:
But why? Why does a third of the world hate us?
Boy in Blue Vest:
Because, you don't realize that a third of the world hates you!!!


Here's the thing. We see pictures of insurgent car bombs and the results all the time. We don't see stuff like this very often, if at all. And then we scorn the Iraqis for their lack of gratitude at being liberated.

 

[fluff]

That's a good question, but it's not really my point. EDIT: I'm NOT blaming the soldiers here, at all. I totally understand why they shot the car.

The screaming blood covered girl is the issue here, along with a little of old fashioned US media criticism.

Fluff, do you ever see stuff like this involving British soldiers in the UK press, or is it just American soldiers?

Not really. I think the British controlled sectors have had fewer suicide attacks (if any) and hence such incidents are far less likely. How much of that is to do with the British methods and how much is down to geographic spread of insurgency I have no idea. Such things have happened in Northern Ireland though.

There has been plenty of coverage in the UK press of some soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners.

As to this incident, you can't blame the US soldiers, I have no doubt that they found it highly distressing but what else could they have done?

As for Iraqi hearts and minds, as Mike D has said, they are as likely as not to blame the whole mess on the US & UK.

Finally, this **** will always happen in a war, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive in the extreme.

 

[$tinkle]

well this is a timely missive, no?

Army details highway robbery

Recently released Army files detail investigations of 13 Fort Carson soldiers suspected of stealing from Iraqis, including nine thought to be involved in a highway-robbery ring.

While four Fort Carson soldiers involved in thefts were punished, nothing happened to the nine members of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment implicated in a shake-down scheme at highway checkpoints in Iraq.

http://gazette.com/display.php?id=1305571&secid=1

 

[Macrider]

from the looks of those pics, i believe we did reach both the hearts & minds of at least 2.

yeah! we killed some foreigners!

Is that what you are getting at? Innocent people are dead, because our military is there when it didn't need to be (Iraq was not a threat the the US in any way) and you make smug remarks? if you support the war so much why don't you sign up? we have troop shortages - so instead of sitting in front of your comp celebrating dead Iraqi civilians (and traumatized children - who if I were them would be looking for revenge) - why don't you sign up, put your trigger finger where your mouth is?

if fact, I think we should reinstate the draft - for those who support the war - you can all go over to the middle east and bring them democracy at the end of your gun...

 

[$tinkle]

Is that what you are getting at? Innocent people are dead, because our military is there when it didn't need to be (Iraq was not a threat the the US in any way) and you make smug remarks?
.
.
<more screeching paroxysms>
.
.

if you had been here for more than a week, you'd know some version of a hearts-n-minds thread is recycled every quarter or so, with the intent of emphasizing how miscalculated the human element & culturally ingnorant the architects of this conflict were.

as for military service, i do hope you're pleased to know i served almost 10 years, the first of which was in the special forces during the first gulf war. and you?

got any other uninformed remarks or generalizations?

 

[fluff]

got any other uninformed remarks or generalizations?

Have you run out of your own?

 

[$tinkle]

wearing our flamebait tiara, are we?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Have you run out of your own?

I think what we need here is a good ol' fashioned fluffing to get our witty/creative juices flowing again...


:devil:

 

[Ciaran]

It doesn't matter what side you are on, war is a horrible, horrible thing. In the end, the people that died are still dead. The pain and suffering last much longer than the war itself. Those kids and those soldiers will have to live with the images of that incident the rest of their lives. And that is an awful thing no matter the right or wrong of the situation.

 

[Skookum]

i swear i saw blood come out of the gas pump the other day.....

 

[Silver]

if you had been here for more than a week, you'd know some version of a hearts-n-minds thread is recycled every quarter or so, with the intent of emphasizing how miscalculated the human element & culturally ingnorant the architects of this conflict were.

And yet, somehow the idea that if we bomb Iran the population there will rise up against the mullahs is starting to circulate.

 

[valve bouncer]

In the end, the people that died are still dead. .

Deep...real deep

 

[$tinkle]

And yet, somehow the idea that if we bomb Iran the population there will rise up against the mullahs is starting to circulate.

didn't work too well on us, did it?

who's circulating this crap? i don't see it at wnd, newsmax, paulrevere society, that south african kim dude, freerepublic, john birch...

shall i check foxnews?

 

[Silver]

If you believe Hersh (and he's been pretty good recently, so I'll give him more of a pass than I normally would) this is starting to circulate among neo-cons high up. If so, give it a month or two, and it will be a regular talking point. I'm sure they are just hammering out some of the little details.

 

[Ciaran]

Deep...real deep

I never claimed to be some deep philosopher. It just seems that so many people forget about the reality of war. Look at you... someone tries to say something constructive and you make fun of them.

 

[$tinkle]

If you believe Hersh (and he's been pretty good recently, so I'll give him more of a pass than I normally would) this is starting to circulate among neo-cons high up. If so, give it a month or two, and it will be a regular talking point. I'm sure they are just hammering out some of the little details.

reading it tonight:
http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/050124fa_fact

 

[Damn True]

Damn tragic.
But when was the last time the media told a story of something good happening over there?
I get emails from friends that are there and from relatives of friends and they tell a very very different story than what you hear on the major news networks and the cable outlets. Yes there is crappy stuff going down, but the chicken little's on your TV are not giving the whole story.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

yeah! we killed some foreigners!

Is that what you are getting at? Innocent people are dead, because our military is there when it didn't need to be (Iraq was not a threat the the US in any way) and you make smug remarks? if you support the war so much why don't you sign up? we have troop shortages - so instead of sitting in front of your comp celebrating dead Iraqi civilians (and traumatized children - who if I were them would be looking for revenge) - why don't you sign up, put your trigger finger where your mouth is?

if fact, I think we should reinstate the draft - for those who support the war - you can all go over to the middle east and bring them democracy at the end of your gun...

AHHh the noobs are always good for a laugh. Stick around a little bit and unless you are a complete moron you will figure out when people are being facecious, ironic, sarcastic... ect. Although I feel this one was pretty obivous, so maybe you should just stop talking.

 

[valve bouncer]

I never claimed to be some deep philosopher. It just seems that so many people forget about the reality of war. Look at you... someone tries to say something constructive and you make fun of them.

Don't be a baby. I was just having some fun, hence the winking smilie. Take the stick out of your rectum. Bloody hell, kids these days.