its still far from a real service manual that fox and rs have available
Help me spend my tax return, time to pick a fork, 40, boxxer, 888?
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No. No matter how much service those things get they still have action that feels like rotten ass compared to something with decent seals that aren't hard as concrete and have a decent surface finish to the stanchion and bushings.
Problem free Boxxers don't exist. The owners are either 1) lying or 2) keeping their bike in the garage as a conversation starter.
...but 888's perform way better than a boxxer? I mean as far as I can tell the only thing a boxxer has going for it is a slight weight advantage.
I mean all I can tell you is that everyone I ever heard who swears they like or prefer a boxxer, as soon as they get on a Dorado or 888 they are blown away and can't sell their boxxer fast enough. Literally, I have friends who gave up trying to sell a their boxxer or 40 and bought Dorados they couldn't afford.
I mean all I can tell you is that everyone I ever heard who swears they like or prefer a boxxer, as soon as they get on a Dorado or 888 they are blown away and can't sell their boxxer fast enough. Literally, I have friends who gave up trying to sell a their boxxer or 40 and bought Dorados they couldn't afford.
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and more adjusting knobs!!!
the love is strong in this thread.
yup, there it is! called it!
but seriously, I replaced 3 air carts in my 2007 boxxer WC, and two dampers.
In my 2010 boxxer team, I replaced sh1t all after using it for 1.5 years, and rebuilt it once (and it is currently in perfect condition). I now have a boxxer WC, which I have not replaced, rebuilt, or had a single problem with.
Also, in that space of time, I had a 40, which failed on me.
I have a parking lot bounce test on a 888evo ti (so no experience) and have never even bounced on a new dorado. I have ridden a kashima/skf 40 though.
Also, maybe I just don't have enough time on these magic forks that everybody is talking about, but aside from being slightly less sticky, there is nothing a kashima/skf sealed 40 does that I can't make happen on my boxxer WC. I can honestly say that I wouldn't see a difference in performance until about 15-16 runs in at northstar and the constant jitters have taken their toll, and I'd rather have a 40. Since I usually call it quits by then anyway, I'm all about whatever is cheapest. In this day and age, if you buy a high end fork, its going to feel really fycking fantastic, end of story. If you pony up the coin for a boxxer team/wc, a 888 evo, a dorado, or a 40rc2, you will be happy with it provided you know the basics of suspension tuning. If you're incredibly particular - see socket or Udi, then you might have to be a little bit more picky, but if you want it to go boing, feel smooth, stay high in its travel, and not bottom out harshly, and not feel harsh, then they will all do that for you.
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Never had a problem with the three boxxers I have used inculding my 2011 r2c2. Get a Risse 'Big Foot'. Be a winner.
I agree with everything you said.
Given the right tuning (and not just damper valving, things like oil and seal choices can make a big difference to stiction and service intervals) - any high end fork should work as well as any other really.
Just out of curiosity do any of the current forks have the bushes reamed(honed?) so they fit nicely around the stanchion or does everyone just slap them in like RS with their dogeared bushes?
I really think getting the bushings to mate perfectly with the stanchion would have a bigger effect on stiction than a magic coating. But I'm only an armchair engineer I have nothing to base that on but after using wet/dry to rub the proud edges off my Totem bushes they felt a lot better in the stiction department.
Since I love getting off track, what are people thoughts on fork flex?
I remember people saying the 40 was too stiff when it was first released but surely if a stanchion or lower flexes it will have a whole bunch more stiction as it compresses. I think you would be better off building a wheel that is more likely to deflect on impact than find a fork that has more flex.
I just don't get how a fork flexing under load can be viewed as a positive attribute.
I really think getting the bushings to mate perfectly with the stanchion would have a bigger effect on stiction than a magic coating. But I'm only an armchair engineer I have nothing to base that on but after using wet/dry to rub the proud edges off my Totem bushes they felt a lot better in the stiction department.
Since I love getting off track, what are people thoughts on fork flex?
I remember people saying the 40 was too stiff when it was first released but surely if a stanchion or lower flexes it will have a whole bunch more stiction as it compresses. I think you would be better off building a wheel that is more likely to deflect on impact than find a fork that has more flex.
I just don't get how a fork flexing under load can be viewed as a positive attribute.
I went from a '07 66 with 1.5" steerer to a '10 888 EVO Ti and I decided to back off the spoke tension a little bit (ex721 rims) because the 888 was noticeably stiffer. The slight deflection in the wheels feels better in rough terrain, the bike tracks better sideways. I'm only 140 lbs with riding gear though.
Manufacturers shouldn't be reaming or honing a surface-coated bushing, because you will be removing polymer that prevents metal on metal contact - excusable in your case, but not a professional solution. What should be happening instead is that tolerances between lowers and bushings should be as tight and consistent as possible to ensure you don't get bushings that are too loose or too tight, and installation procedures are also important - because if you bang them in too hard for example, they will mushroom at the seat and cause a stiction point.
I know Fox mentioned improving lower/bushing tolerances in their marketing material around '10-'11, and Marzocchi also market it as a feature on the latest 888's. I think this is good news and an important factor in reducing stiction.
Realistically though, it sounds like you just got a dud fork - you see a couple of people here slamming Rockshox constantly, but I (and I'd say a lot of others) have either seen or experienced bushing issues on all three major brands. A friend of mine bought a new 888 a few years ago that was gouging its stanchions out of the box because of bushing misalignment, and he actually got denied warranty by the Australia distributor at the time (Groupe Sportif). I'd hope/imagine things have improved now. Bottom line - it can happen to any fork.
The other important thing is to realise that there are many sliding surfaces in a fork and all of these points need to be considered / addressed to have an effective solution. I don't think a fancy coating makes a huge difference, but combined with low-stiction seals, a well toleranced lower-stanchion-bushing interface, and a purpose-made oil, you start seeing noticeable differences when it all comes together. I think Fox are nailing it these days, and Marzocchi have always been good with it (apart from the '08-'10 failures, but they seem back on track). You can steal / tailor ideas too, Fox's green oil benefits Rockshox forks, as can the SKF seals where compatible.
I'd agree and say less flex is better, but it's hard to quantify - thus what's below is just my personal experience / opinion. I came from an 888 background, to 32mm Boxxers, to 35mm Boxxers and have spent the last year on 40s.
I noticed the 32mm Boxxers flexing in a few places the 888's didn't, but didn't feel like it slowed me down. After being on a 40 for a while and jumping back on a 32mm Boxxer however, there was a noticeable lack of stiffness. In corners there was noticeable twisting and a little under braking also. It was a surprise to me because I never even noticed (let alone had it bother me) until I'd ridden a 40 for a while. A fairly fast rider I met overseas mentioned he noticed the same thing with the 35mm but I haven't compared back to back myself.
I also don't enjoy inverted forks and personally don't think they are a step forward in the bicycle world - more lateral stiffness does not compensate for the fact that they have less torsional stiffness given the omission of one entire crown.
Bottom line, I think the stiffer forks inspire confidence and give more accurate feedback as to what the front wheel is doing underneath it - but unless you go from a stiffer fork to a less-stiff fork, you're probably not going to notice or have it actually slow you down.
Q1-Answer: I'm a weekend warrior, cat3, amature, etc. I raced in the Powerade series at Snowshoe twice last year as a weekend warrior and finished mid pack. I did improve a lot last season from the beginning of the year to the end. I don't have any unrealistic expectations of being pro or even "good" anytime soon. I just enjoy riding and racing.
Q2-Last year I made 3 trips to the east coast, seven springs, and snowshoe twice, other than that Northern Lower Michigan (Boyne highlands) which is pretty sandy/loamy, and Marquette Mi, Copper Harbor, both much rockier and similar to snowshoe or seven springs in terms of like terrain.
Q3-I am not sure how to answer all of this since my current fork only allows for adjustment in rebound and compression. It feels "ok" in many situations, but could use some more bottom out resistance, small bump sensitivy, and could avoid diving so bad in hard hard braking.
2) (you numbered these weird) Service. I don't mind changing oil and seals once or twice a year or as needed even, but i've not gone more in depth then that, I am confident that if necessary I could, but it's not something that I WANT to do weekly, or after every ride.
Adjustability-I don't want to be overly adjusting my fork trying to get it to feel "right" I like having the options, but I don't want 42 different knobs to turn.
The more I read the more it just feels like the fox fits my personality on all fronts outside of servicing the Fit Damper itself, but if that is pretty reliable then it seems I could just send it in during the off season to have Fox give it a once over and be good to go throughout the season.
Boxxer race with avalanche cartridge.
Reliability
Performance
Lighter than stock internals
Infinite tuneability
And can be slapped in other chasis.
Reliability
Performance
Lighter than stock internals
Infinite tuneability
And can be slapped in other chasis.
Rebuilding my boxxer world cup for the first time, always rode a 40 before, was a breeze. Damper oil change, solo air oil change and new seals. Changing the orings on everything else would be a bit longer process but not difficult. The rockshox guides are very thorough.
Same thing with my old 40, the step by step is awesome and works perfect if you follow the steps. I remember having to grind down a box wrench the first time because it was too thick to get on one bolt on the rebound shaft. It could have been solved by buying a low profile wrench too. Both forks ran and still run great, the 40 is an 08. They get a full rebuild w/seals every 6-9 months and only oil changes as needed in between.
No experience with a marzo other than a crap 66 I bought used for a starter build.
I would suggest looking at used options and then reloving/replacing the internals only as needed. Most bikes feel like crap from neglect not bad parts.
Same thing with my old 40, the step by step is awesome and works perfect if you follow the steps. I remember having to grind down a box wrench the first time because it was too thick to get on one bolt on the rebound shaft. It could have been solved by buying a low profile wrench too. Both forks ran and still run great, the 40 is an 08. They get a full rebuild w/seals every 6-9 months and only oil changes as needed in between.
No experience with a marzo other than a crap 66 I bought used for a starter build.
I would suggest looking at used options and then reloving/replacing the internals only as needed. Most bikes feel like crap from neglect not bad parts.
this. maybe a second hand 888 to get a smoother chassis. you will only have lsc and rebound to mess around with, internal valving will be pretty much setup for your riding and it'll plain work.
Why would you have to modify them any more than you'd have to modify a boxxer or 888? That statement makes no sense. They don't "require modification", nothing does or should. On any fork, boxxer, 40, etc, you will have to make some changes for optimal performance if you are not within their intended design-range as far as weight and riding style. You don't have to make these changes, but there's no reason why the avy cart would "require modification".
I would also consider a dorado pro. The hex lock axle does a good job of addressing unwanted flex. Always buttery smooth and very tuneable. I was long time boxxer wc user. While i think the wc is an excellent fork, you really had to be diligent in regular service or the fork would have noticeable stiction. The dorado felt like a freshly lubed/serviced wc everytime. I rode/raced the dorado for 15months, didnt touch it other than hosing it off after a muddy ride, and finally just sent it last week when i noticed the seal lips were alittle moist.
if you want a super plush, smooth fork, that is very tunable quite easily, that is ridiculously low maintenance, then you want a 888 evo.
i personally have over 100 hard, rocky/dusty days of riding on mine, just did the first set of seals, since i cut the seal on a nick on the stanchion. no oil changes. still, after perhaps 400 hours of riding perfectly smooth and plush with no need of fresh oil.
in conmparision, i needed to do *something* to my old boxer every 15-20 days, and to my old 40 every 25-40 days. the 888 would still be running strong on the original oil/seals if i had not nicked the stanction and cut the seal.
very tunable. i just added an air-preload cap form an rcv to mine to add spring pre-load, a little extra oil in the spring leg to make the fork a little more progressive, and then tune compression to near open, and mild rebound. so so nice.
i would put the eve cart up against any avalanche fork out there (i had a boxxer/avy prior).
i personally have over 100 hard, rocky/dusty days of riding on mine, just did the first set of seals, since i cut the seal on a nick on the stanchion. no oil changes. still, after perhaps 400 hours of riding perfectly smooth and plush with no need of fresh oil.
in conmparision, i needed to do *something* to my old boxer every 15-20 days, and to my old 40 every 25-40 days. the 888 would still be running strong on the original oil/seals if i had not nicked the stanction and cut the seal.
very tunable. i just added an air-preload cap form an rcv to mine to add spring pre-load, a little extra oil in the spring leg to make the fork a little more progressive, and then tune compression to near open, and mild rebound. so so nice.
i would put the eve cart up against any avalanche fork out there (i had a boxxer/avy prior).
I had a chat to an NTN rep and he said coated bushings are often resized ever so slightly by reaming and that there was no problem doing it. I was doing some research about it when I was trying to get both my Kowas working.
Also as to me getting a dud fork I would say a lot of people get poor performing RS forks and they are either good enough to ride around it or they just don't know there is a problem.
I know there was a local store that wouldn't sell an aftermarket Boxxer to a decent rider without pulling them down and rubbing the high points off the bushings.
I have 888's now and I like them, I can't say I notice flex but I don't really have anything to compare them to in regards to flex, I have only owned the Kowas and a Totem.
Kick - sounds like the 40 is what you are drawn toward based on the info provided, so I say Go for it!
You will definitely be stoked on it! One thing to note*: The previous gen 40's were fairly linear but the newer ones have much improved Bottom Out performance. I'm not sure how the older (05-08) compare to the newer (09-12) in this regard so if anyone has any riding experience with a fork from both model year groupings, I'd be interested to know how they match up in Bottom Out.
You also mention that you have excessive brake dive w/ your current fork so you will be very pleased with the mid-stroke on the 40 right out of the box. Additionally, the HSC and LSC compression adjusters are very effective at dialing in just what you need.
The 40 is more expensive than the Boxxer R2C2 alternative, but if the 40 is what you want, then you will definitely be happy!
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I presume you'd have a fairly new 888 though (with the new bushing processes) so the resizing probably just took off a few tiny high points. I'm talking about taking a fork that has significant bushing stiction / stick points and then honing to suit... it's probably a lot more ideal to sort out the fitment and installation tolerances / processes in the first place - obviously not an issue you had.
Key words there are "ever so slightly" - see above. I've seen it done before, and have done it myself. But in the better forks I've seen, the fork will reach that magic sweet spot after a break-in period by itself because everything is toleranced / installed well enough that there isn't anything that requires manual intervention.
I'm just saying that from a manufacturing standpoint, the cause should be addressed rather than (or at least before) the symptoms - instead of allowing some misalignment / mushrooming and than running a hone through it as a blanket fix.
...No. It's the massive crowns and clamping area that reduces the flex.
Changing the oil in a FIT cart is fairly easy. It only gets more involved if you start taking the cart apart.
What about this: Go buy yourself a 2012 888.
If you of some reason shouldn't be happy with the performance, drop in an Avy cart (or some kind of other cartridge). It's probably enough of forum monkeys that would like to upgrade their EVO cartridge to an EVO V2, so shouldn't be too hard to sell the stock cart either.
If you of some reason shouldn't be happy with the performance, drop in an Avy cart (or some kind of other cartridge). It's probably enough of forum monkeys that would like to upgrade their EVO cartridge to an EVO V2, so shouldn't be too hard to sell the stock cart either.
I have a '10 boxxer team and would get a 40, hands down if I were you.
Yes i assumed that was a given. I believe that manitou touts the hexlock aids in decreasing flex as well.
where is the cheapest place to get a fox 40? Tax returns arrived
Bikebling.com call and talk to Kerry he works out some VERY VERY good deals plus he has a white fox 40 2012 kashima that's been on the wall new for a couple months and he'd be more than motivated to move it. He hates inventory sitting and just wants his money back.
Lol hell even I couldnt figure out what fork you should get from this thread. Lol ive ridden all except the dorado which I'd like to sling a leg over and see.
You can't go wrong with the current crop be advised they all BS on weight my fox 40 rc2 I just grabbed is a 2012 with kashima and it came in at 7.2 lbs fox claims 6.8 with star nut mine was without star nut. So I assume they weigh with no oil it has stock blue ti spring.
Good fork you'll like any of them, good stuff for sure.
Lol hell even I couldnt figure out what fork you should get from this thread. Lol ive ridden all except the dorado which I'd like to sling a leg over and see.
You can't go wrong with the current crop be advised they all BS on weight my fox 40 rc2 I just grabbed is a 2012 with kashima and it came in at 7.2 lbs fox claims 6.8 with star nut mine was without star nut. So I assume they weigh with no oil it has stock blue ti spring.
Good fork you'll like any of them, good stuff for sure.
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pm sentwhere is the cheapest place to get a fox 40? Tax returns arrived
Mmmm a little stoke for you. (This is on the way to avalanche in a couple weeks but it'll look the same.)
I agree I think I'll be plenty happy with any of them in the long run.
I am not too concerned with weight to be honest, my bike is a pig, so am I, so it won't matter LOL