[ebarker9]

I know that this is a topic that's been beaten to death on here, but I'm still not convinced that my suspension is set up as well as it could be for me/my riding style (or lack thereof) and there isn't really a good resource for my bike/shock setup.

My info: ~150lb, brake dragging hack with ok skills but a healthy fear of death/injury. Not much for drops or jumps, love the fast sections, slow and somewhat unsteady through the rocks.

The bike: Socom with Fox 40. Swinger x6. 300lb spring in the back and purple in the 40.

"Issues": Though I know it's not exactly a plow bike, I feel like I should be getting more help from the bike in rougher sections. Probably my biggest issues are on repeated chatter-y sections, either trying to skim through random rock sections, braking bumps, or anything resembling a staircase. Decreasing rebound damping has definitely helped, but the bike still feels very harsh through the rough. I get occasional "spiking" (not necessarily using this word in the technical/suspension lingo sense) in these sections which completely throws me off my game and the bike feels like a jackhammer over braking bumps. I can't tell if it's bottoming when it's doing this or if it actually is spiking. I've tried increasing compression damping in an attempt to keep the bike higher in its travel and avoid some of the harshness and also decreasing compression damping trying to add some compliance, but no magic bullet yet. Another source of confusion would be reservoir pressure and volume as they relate to the crazy leverage curve of this bike. Help.

Appreciate any thoughts on this given the fairly unusual frame/shock combo, even if they're just suggestions to purchase a bike with a 30 page tuning thread.

 

[Udi]

Your setup at least from your description doesn't sound particularly bad. While it's hard to judge over the net, it's probably a good start to make sure everything is running smoothly and correctly in terms of suspension.

- Is the fork supple / free-moving? If not, a lower service is good, Green oil and SKF seals are great
- Is the fork pre-'11 and topping out at all? Damper probably needs a service if so
- Is the shock sticky? Try lower pressures / lower damping settings or even a different shock
- Are the bearings / pivots in the rearend smooth? If not, replace or re-grease

I don't have much experience with the Swinger X6 in particular, but do know that after '05 or so the Swinger lineup had a tendency to be fairly sticky. Not sure if they are good now but it's something to consider.

Springs:
The 300lb spring could probably afford to drop a little for your weight, I'd definitely try using a 250 or 275 if you can get your hands on them to see if they help at all. The purple spring in the 40 should be correct.

Damper:
The general rule with rebound damping is to have it as fast as you are comfortable with, while always having the rear slightly slower than the front to prevent forward pitching. Probably best to have the compression levels fairly low on both ends until you figure out what is causing the harshness. You are probably aware of / doing all that already.

The Socom (like the majority of VPP bikes with the shock driven off the upper link) has some early stroke regression in the leverage ratio curve, which isn't the best thing for small bump sensitivity. Trying a shock or damper/spring setup that moves more freely at the start of the stroke is probably going to help reduce that trait. A softer spring will help, as will backing off some damping, or even trying a different shock if you can borrow one - 9.5 x 3 is easily the most common size in DH bikes.

As an aside, the Socom is also fairly steep by today's standards so the slacker dynamic geometry with a softer rear spring might help you be more comfortable going faster - as may angled reducer cups for the headset. Not really suspension related but is generally a good confidence booster.

 

[ebarker9]

Thanks, that's great info and exactly the kind of sanity check I was looking for. It's definitely not terrible (terrible was trying to ride with the blue spring an 400lb in the rear when I first got the bike!) but I appreciate the suggestions for things to look into. I've been pretty meticulous about keeping the pivots operating smoothly, but the shock is definitely due a rebuild and I'll order the lighter spring to try. Dropping from a 350 to 300 made a huge difference so I would be eager to try that.

 

[Steve M]

The Swinger shocks are overall less than amazing in stock guise - they're sticky and prone to harshness no matter how you set them up, and getting decent performance out of them requires pretty serious internal mods. I would highly recommend checking out alternatives to that shock. Getting a decent damper in there and the correct spring (have you measured sag?) will be 9/10ths of the battle. From the sag point on, the bike is highly progressive (and quite regressive before sag - weird mix), so a damper than is either position sensitive or sticky (both traits of the Swinger) is less than ideal. I would recommend getting hold of the best quality damper your budget allows for. Cheaper options would be the Van RC or the RS Kage, mid-range you'd be looking at a Vivid coil, or in the high end a Cane Creek (or BOS, if you're in Europe). This is one of the few applications that the RC4 is not particularly suitable for however - it will be better than the Swinger but its largish air preload effect coupled with the ending stroke progression aren't a great mesh with the leverage rate of the Socom.

 

[davet]

for $179 Avalanche will turn your Swinger into something very good and custom tuned your you and your bike.

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm

 

[CraigS]

I second that

for $179 Avalanche will turn your Swinger into something very good and custom tuned your you and your bike.

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm

 

[iRider]

I am the same weight (145) and own a Socom and think the spring rate you run is spot on. Initially I used a DHX5 with a 350 # spring (sag was 35%) on the bike and while it was not a bad shock it didn't offer a lot of support in the mid stroke. I then switched to the CCDB coil and played with a bunch of different spring rates (250-350 #s) and ended up with a 300 for normal riding. Mainly because the CCDB keeps the bike higher in the travel because of the damping. If you ride crazy steep stuff w/o big jumps all the time it could make sense to drop the spring rate by 25-50 #s.
Check sag and also dynamic ride height and then decide what you like. Because of the VPP you can't deviate too much from the recommended sag or the bike will pedal bad.

Regarding the X6: as far as I know there were two different ones on the market. One with SPV and one with shims. Check which one you have. FWIW: I played a little around with a 5th Element (SPV) and it didn't work too nice with the frame. Pretty good midstroke damping but too progressive.

And as Udi suggested, updating the geometry might be a good option. I use the Slacker dropouts from http://www.powellprecision.com and am quite happy with them. I know some people that use an angle reducer headset as well to further slacken it.

 

[ebarker9]

Really appreciate all of the suggestions. I'll definitely consider a change of shocks or potentially the Avalanche mod. I was looking into that before making the original post, but was looking to get exactly this kind of feedback before going to a custom tune. Wonder which will be more challenging...finding Manitou springs or finding shock mounting hardware for this frame! The Vivid might be a good option (though I remember some reliability issues in the earlier days) as the Cane Creek is going to be more money than I could justify on a 5 year old bike. Any thoughts on that option vs the Avalanche custom tune? And which version of the Vivid would I be looking at? Would I still be looking at a 300lb spring as a starting point? (I know the suggestion for a DHX on this bike is a significantly stiffer spring than what I'm currently running).

Regarding sag...I did a rough measurement when I went to the 300lb spring and was in the 30-35% ballpark, but I'll get a better measurement before taking any other action.

Meant to look at the shock last night to check out which version I have. I do recall that there were the SPV and shimmed options.

Any rationale for updating the geometry via the headset as opposed to the dropouts?

 

[iRider]

Really appreciate all of the suggestions. I'll definitely consider a change of shocks or potentially the Avalanche mod. I was looking into that before making the original post, but was looking to get exactly this kind of feedback before going to a custom tune. Wonder which will be more challenging...finding Manitou springs or finding shock mounting hardware for this frame! The Vivid might be a good option (though I remember some reliability issues in the earlier days) as the Cane Creek is going to be more money than I could justify on a 5 year old bike. Any thoughts on that option vs the Avalanche custom tune? And which version of the Vivid would I be looking at? Would I still be looking at a 300lb spring as a starting point? (I know the suggestion for a DHX on this bike is a significantly stiffer spring than what I'm currently running).

Avalanche mod would be a cost-effective method to get what you want from the suspension in case your shock is still in good shape. Custom tuned suspension is always better than the best off the shelf shock IMO. This the main reason I got the CCDB. I can play around without being limited by the external adjustment range (I am not good enough to play with shimz).
I would follow Udi's suggestion to try and borrow shocks (make sure it has the right tune) before you buy.
Regarding shock tunes for the Vivid: there was a thread on mtbr in the Intense forum. Can't find it on the quick though. Or e-mail Intense's CS guy Sam (sam (at) intensecycles.com)

Regarding sag...I did a rough measurement when I went to the 300lb spring and was in the 30-35% ballpark, but I'll get a better measurement before taking any other action.

So it doesn't really make sense to go down in spring weight.

Any rationale for updating the geometry via the headset as opposed to the dropouts?

I wanted to drop the BB and slacken the headset at the same time, this is why the dropouts. Headset only if you want to change the HA w/o affecting the BB height. Some people install a headset in addition to the dropouts to get the head angle to current numbers but I kind of enjoy the bike being more nimble.

 

[ebarker9]

Thanks. I think I will try the Avalanche service. I did check an I do have the shimstack version (the SFS).

 

[Udi]

Yeah if you're already getting 35% sag then there's no need for a softer spring, sounds like the shock is causing some sort of issue.

I do think it'd be handy to try a different shock before investing money just to make sure it's that and not just the feel of the frame, although the Avalanche service sounds quite good and priced pretty reasonably too.

 

[iRider]

Thanks. I think I will try the Avalanche service. I did check an I do have the shimstack version (the SFS).

Great, so you don't even need the SPV conversion from Avalanche. Just a revalve.
But weird that the shock doesn't work. All shimmed Manitou shocks that I have ridden felt great. Did it come from another frame or was it original on the Socom?

 

[ebarker9]

It was original on the Socom. Rode yesterday and decreased the rebound damping even more and it felt a bit better. It's definitely in the ballpark, but still some big jolts on repeated hits especially when the bike was further into its travel to begin with (moderate g-out type compressions with braking bumps/holes). Both fork and shock will be getting rebuilt over the winter so I'll see how things are come next season. And I'll probably order the slacker dropouts as well.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

 

[Huck Banzai]

I second that

I third the Avy work. I gave a 5th I have to this gent I'm quoting, and he turned it from a POS, to an amazing DH shock. Plush, controlled, knobs did their jobs.

As good or better than anything I've tried.