Quantcast

Here's something that should bring a smile to you liberals

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,287
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.

Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitmate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?

EDIT: And that the US is nothing more than an instrument of Allah?

I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
DRB said:
I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.

Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitmate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?

I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
Excellent point..................
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
DRB said:
I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.

Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitimate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?

I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
Thus the slippery slope of believing you have even the slightest chance of deciphering God's will, if you believe he exists. You could justify anything, and just about everything. You could even say having wealth is a sign of god's favor and therefore you are better than the huddled masses, and since God favors you, it's o.k. to take advantage of your wealth to abuse the poor and become more wealthy. After all God must not like the poor, because he made the poor. Pretty soon you're going to a prosperity gospel church and God is a giant vending machine, set forth to cater to your every need.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Reactor said:
Thus the slippery slope of believing you have even the slightest chance of deciphering God's will, if you believe he exists. You could justify anything, and just about everything. You could even say having wealth is a sign of god's favor and therefore you are better than the huddled masses, and since God favors you, it's o.k. to take advantage of your wealth to abuse the poor and become more wealthy. After all God must not like the poor, because he made the poor. Pretty soon you're going to a prosperity gospel church and God is a giant vending machine, set forth to cater to your every need.
Don’t even get me started on that prosperity “gospel” stuff (would rather have inserted a 4 letter word of my choice there)………….it’s utterly amazing and yet sad all at the same time how people can ignore/discard whole books of the Bible in order to make their idea/theology “work”. I think the word “cult” comes to mind………………

My wife and I had a conversation about this the other night, if we lived where there was only two churches available, a hard core Roman Catholic church, or a crazy Word of Faith (read prosperity “gospel”) church………we both overwhelmingly would choose the Roman Catholic church………….and we’re “hard core” protestant/evangelical types. I think I could ignore the Mary worship better than I could those who “cut and paste” the Bible as they see fit.

Anyway………….sorry for the rant……………please continue your normally scheduled program.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Andyman_1970 said:
. . . I think I could ignore the Mary worship better than I could those who. . .
Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
enkidu said:
Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
:think:
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
enkidu said:
Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
While I don't want to encite a theological kung fu match over this, as a disciple of a 1st century Jewish rabbi, I can find nothing in the Text or Tradition my Rabbi (note the capital "R") came from that indicated I needed to pray to anyone except Yahweh.

With all due respect (please note I have a very good friend who is Catholic, so I'm not bagging on Catholics) - that is a tradition (praying to Mary) that was instituted several hundred years after Jesus and the early church (which remember was almost entirely Jewish).

I tell Catholics like I tell Mormons, JW's or Pentacostals (just so you know I don't discriminate) if an idea or doctrine cannot be substantiated from the Old Testament (ie the Scriptures for Jesus and the early church) then I don't adhere to it, be it praying to Saints, the idea that baptism saves, that God was once a "regular" man, or that God's Name is Jehovah.

Anyway, that's why I don't pray to Mary, I'm a disciple of Jesus (which Christians are suppose to be) which in the 1st century being a disciple meant you learned what your rabbi knew, you did what your rabbi did, so that you can become like your rabbi and carry on his teachings. Jesus didn't pray to Mary or anyone else but YHWH, so as a disciple I don't pray to Mary.

Anyway, please understand that wasn't a "smack down" just an my contextual explanation of my "why" on the matter...............
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Andyman_1970 said:
. . . as a disciple of a 1st century Jewish rabbi, I can find nothing in the Text or Tradition my Rabbi (note the capital "R") came from that indicated I needed to pray to anyone except Yahweh. .
But remember at the wedding at Cana, our Rabbi performs his first sign during a wedding feast - at his mother's request. She intercedes for the host in need, "They have no wine". And instructs the servers to "Do whatever he tells you". We, too, wish to do His will, but we have a discreet, but powerful, intercessor in his mother. He honors her recommendation like a good Jewish Rabbi, who follows the Mosaic Commandment to honor his parents.

Andyman_1970 said:
. . . Jesus didn't pray to Mary or anyone else but YHWH, so as a disciple I don't pray to Mary.
He didn't "pray" to Mary. He just respected, loved and listened to her as his mother. Any reason to assume that he wouldn't now?

Andyman_1970 said:
Anyway, please understand that wasn't a "smack down" just an my contextual explanation of my "why" on the matter...............
Oh, Andyman, I have seen enough of your postings by now to know that you wouldn't rag or smack me down for my feeble attempt to verbalize my *faith* (oops, it's a smackable offense to use that word here, isn't it?)
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
enkidu said:
But remember at the wedding at Cana, our Rabbi performs his first sign during a wedding feast - at his mother's request. She intercedes for the host in need, "They have no wine". And instructs the servers to "Do whatever he tells you". We, too, wish to do His will, but we have a discreet, but powerful, intercessor in his mother. He honors her recommendation like a good Jewish Rabbi, who follows the Mosaic Commandment to honor his parents.
I’m with you on the honoring His mother, but again I’ll need Old Testament (read Jewish) evidence that dead people are to become our intercessors. There is no record in the Old Testament of people praying for Moses to intercede for them, or for Noah to intercede for them, or for Elijah to intercede for them.

The Scriptures do speak of an intercessor for us, that would be Jesus. Instead of the high priest going to the Temple once a year on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) on our behalf and interceding for all the junk we’ve done – the book of Hebrews speaks of a new High Priest……….I’ll give you one guess who that is…….LOL.

enkidu said:
He didn't "pray" to Mary. He just respected, loved and listened to her as his mother. Any reason to assume that he wouldn't now?
You’re assuming that those dwelling in the heavenly dimension have the same relationships they did here on earth. Instead of Jesus “respecting” Mary in the heavenly dimension, I would say (from my studying the Bible of course) that Mary is worshipping Jesus and “respecting” Him (Isaiah speaks of the whole creation giving honor and glory to God). Remember the Scriptures teach that Jesus is holding all creation together, if that is the case why would He ask His earthly mother to intercede for Him??? He’s holding everything together, not Mary, He’s God, not Mary why would He need her help with His creation???

This concerns me in two ways: first, the idea that Mary somehow operates as an intercessor or mediator between us and God treads awfully close to hagiolatry (from the Greek word for saints hagios). Second, and this is said with the utmost of respect, a great effort was made during the council of Nicea (circa 325 AD) to erase the Hebraic context, roots and traditions of the early church (1st century). While I wholeheartedly affirm the Nicean creed – I do however have problems with many of ideas and doctrines that came after the council – the perpetual virginity of Mary would be another one. From what I have researched the idea of a “mother of God” traces it’s roots to pagan worship practices, as does holidays such as Easter, Christmas (advent was 12 days that were initiated by Caesar Augustus to celebrate his birth……….sound familiar) and the “switch” of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

Now (hold on let me adjust me tin foil hat), while I view suspiciously all things post 325 AD, there are some wonderful ideas, and teachings that have arisen since then, some Catholic, some Orthodox, some Anglican, some Protestant – so I want to be clear I’m not “down” on all things Catholic (hey I bag on most things Calvin and Luther worse than I do things Catholic), or all things post 325 AD, I however am VERY cautious of any teaching or doctrine that can trace it’s birth at or after 325. Jesus didn’t come to start a new religion, He wasn’t even a Christian, He was a Torah observant Jew. So the ideas of something “new” starting that replaces or discards the “old” has no contextual basis in Scripture and as such I am highly suspicious of.

enkidu said:
Oh, Andyman, I have seen enough of your postings by now to know that you wouldn't rag or smack me down for my feeble attempt to verbalize my *faith* (oops, it's a smackable offense to use that word here, isn't it?)
Thanks enkidu, I just wanted to clarify that I was not attacking you personally.
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
Andyman_1970 said:
Anyway, that's why I don't pray to Mary, I'm a disciple of Jesus (which Christians are suppose to be) which in the 1st century being a disciple meant you learned what your rabbi knew, you did what your rabbi did, so that you can become like your rabbi and carry on his teachings. Jesus didn't pray to Mary or anyone else but YHWH, so as a disciple I don't pray to Mary.

:thumb:
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Andyman_1970 said:
I’m with you on the honoring His mother, but again I’ll need Old Testament (read Jewish) evidence that dead people are to become our intercessors. There is no record in the Old Testament of people praying for Moses to intercede for them, or for Noah to intercede for them, or for Elijah to intercede for them.
At the time of Jesus' Transfiguration Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" in the presence of three disciples, Peter, James and John. (Lk 9:31)

I think it's a remarkable account of the way Jesus combines the Old Testament world and the New Apostles' mission. Moses' earthly character, representing the Law, and Elijah's, the Prophets, are both intact and still they are shown here as active participants in Jesus' pre-passion earthly moment. (In fact, that was the very first time the pending sufferings of the Messiah was revealed to the Apostles.)

So when you say:
Andyman_1970 said:
You’re assuming that those dwelling in the heavenly dimension have the same relationships they did here on earth.
I must reply that the essence of what we are here on earth must be "present" somehow in heaven as well, albeit in the glorified state (that is in perfect unity with Christ).

Which is not too surprising, when we think of being in the "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth as it is in heaven in the Lord's Prayer, which our Jewish Rabbi encouraged us to pray and live.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
enkidu said:
Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
Let me help you guys settle this argument on our very secular website:

Isn't Mary the mother of your "Imaginary" friend? (that's a quote from Penn of Penn & Teller http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/about.do)
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
enkidu said:
At the time of Jesus' Transfiguration Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" in the presence of three disciples, Peter, James and John. (Lk 9:31)

I think it's a remarkable account of the way Jesus combines the Old Testament world and the New Apostles' mission. Moses' earthly character, representing the Law, and Elijah's, the Prophets, are both intact and still they are shown here as active participants in Jesus' pre-passion earthly moment. (In fact, that was the very first time the pending sufferings of the Messiah was revealed to the Apostles.)

I must reply that the essence of what we are here on earth must be "present" somehow in heaven as well, albeit in the glorified state (that is in perfect unity with Christ).
Ok, so please show me Scripture where the parent child relationship will be intact in Heaven? Also please show me from Scripture where someone other than Jesus can be co-equal in the redemption process.

enkidu said:
Which is not too surprising, when we think of being in the "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth as it is in heaven in the Lord's Prayer, which our Jewish Rabbi encouraged us to pray and live.
While I agree that through our actions we can in a small way bring Heaven to earth, and as in the Jewish mindset “repair” the world and help bring it back to what God originally intended. You still don’t address that Mary is somehow in an “elevated” position in Heaven, the impression you gave is that Jesus in Heaven goes to His mom for guidance and such. He’s the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God according to the Scriptures, according to the Scriptures Mary is worshipping Him right now not acting as some sort of counselor.

I did some research on this whole Mary thing. She was declared “Mother of God” in 431 AD – some 300+ years after the fact when the Gentiles were in the process of Hellenizing the church and erasing everything Jewish. In the 1500’s the Council of Trent declared her sinless (a blatant contradiction of Scripture – Paul says all have sinned) and she was a perpetual virgin – evidently they believe Jesus was born by some miraculous cesarean section. I believe in the 1800’s she was declared a “co-redemtrix”, once again a contradiction of Scripture.

It’s clear when you study pagan Roman gods, and their worship of the day (400’s) they had both a “holy father” and a “holy mother” that they would pray to, there is a good amount of evidence that this was “incorporated” into Christianity once Constantine made it the state religion of Rome in the early 300’s. Additionally, there is scant mention of Mary in the book of Acts, if she was so important why is she not mentioned? Plenty of women are mentioned in the Gospels as being disciples of Jesus, Mary really doesn’t play that prominent of a role in the Gospels either.

Remember Christianity up until Acts 10 was entirely Jewish, and considered a sect of Judaism (Acts 9 – it was referred to as the sect called The Way), also remember that for the early church the Old Testament was their Scriptures, so when Paul says in his letter to Timothy “all Scripture is God breathed, useful for teaching, doctrine, etc” Paul is referring to the Old Testament. So with this in mind, from both a historical and cultural context point of view, you’ll have to show me where in the Old Testament this whole “mother god” thing is, and where in Judaism this would have been a requirement of the Messiah or the Kingdom of God.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
sanjuro said:
Let me help you guys settle this argument on our very secular website:

Isn't Mary the mother of your "Imaginary" friend? (that's a quote from Penn of Penn & Teller http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/about.do)
This is what I was talking about in another thread. :nope: Why bash? did they bash your beliefs? Are they preaching? No, they are having a discussion about the nature of christianity. And from my point of view they are likely having one of the more intelligent discussions found in the PD forum.

Andy, when I finally began to question catholicism I found that the adoration of mary and the saints to be a very ingrained belief. One that many of my fellow Catholics fought vigorously to defend. Now I would never claim to be very well educated on my own faith, certainly not to the point that I could help teach and guide others, but for some reason I always had issues with praying to Mary or saints to intercede for me. I always felt that Jesus doesn't need me to have someone intercede on my behalf.

Growing up I tried to explain my position to my grandmother who is very very catholic. I was promptly punished and made to kiss the feet of the mary statue, which I also found very odd. :think:

I am enjoying the discussion between Andyman, and Enkidu. Keep it up guys.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Thanks, Ciaran / AnotherMike (I like your Medieval flavor better, but whichever. . .), for shielding us from ridicule and encouraging us to continue with this exploration. I'm not a theologian and there are plenty of great books by experts like Scott Hahn ("Hail, Holy Queen") or a nice concise internet site like ( http://members.tripod.com/~Emmaus1/Emmaus.html), where Marian theology is explained lucidly.

I was just trying to depict my view of the beautiful different aspects of the Moon(light), while, of course, admitting that the Sun is the main indispensable source of all light and that our lives depend on it. In fact, I LOVE basking and snoozing in the Sun like a trusting lazy cat!

But yet the Moon is there, reflecting the Sun in a unique quiet way helping the night farers make it to the destination. And we, too, reflect and carry the warmth of the Sun within us in our small measures just as the Moon does. (I know, I know. Andyman wants scriptural quotes. The resources above do give them. I might comment on them, if an opportunity arises.)
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
enkidu said:
Thanks, Ciaran / AnotherMike (I like your Medieval flavor better, but whichever. . .), for shielding us from ridicule and encouraging us to continue with this exploration. I'm not a theologian and there are plenty of great books by experts like Scott Hahn ("Hail, Holy Queen") or a nice concise internet site like ( http://members.tripod.com/~Emmaus1/Emmaus.html), where Marian theology is explained lucidly.

I was just trying to depict my view of the beautiful different aspects of the Moon(light), while, of course, admitting that the Sun is the main indispensable source of all light and that our lives depend on it. In fact, I LOVE basking and snoozing in the Sun like a lazy cat!

But yet Moon is there, reflecting the Sun in a unique quiet way helping the night farers make it to the destination. And we, too, reflect and carry the warmth of the Sun within us in our small measures just as the Moon does.
No habla sun and moon talk.........LOL...........this must be a catholic thing........... ;)

enkidu said:
The resources above do give them.
Where are these resources you speak of???
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
AnotherMike said:
This is what I was talking about in another thread. :nope: Why bash? did they bash your beliefs? Are they preaching? No, they are having a discussion about the nature of christianity. And from my point of view they are likely having one of the more intelligent discussions found in the PD forum.
That's a funny question. I don't particularily enjoy reading about scripture. And apparently questioning the existence of God is offensive to you, and not worthy of discussion.

I suppose a discussion about religious concepts should be permitted, considering some of the crap which is discussed. Religious freedom cuts both ways. Religion and God should be discussed, as well as athetism and other religions as well.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
sanjuro said:
That's a funny question. I don't particularily enjoy reading about scripture. And apparently questioning the existence of God is offensive to you, and not worthy of discussion.

I suppose a discussion about religious concepts should be permitted, considering some of the crap which is discussed. Religious freedom cuts both ways. Religion and God should be discussed, as well as athetism and other religions as well.
If you don't enjoy reading about scripture then don't read the thread. It's that easy.

I agree that a discussion about the existense of God is worthy of discussion here, and I am not offended by it. But you did not attempt to discuss the existence of God, you threw out a half assed childish playground worthy remark with no thought or merit behind it.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
AnotherMike said:
If you don't enjoy reading about scripture then don't read the thread. It's that easy.

I agree that a discussion about the existense of God is worthy of discussion here, and I am not offended by it. But you did not attempt to discuss the existence of God, you threw out a half assed childish playground worthy remark with no thought or merit behind it.
Penn Jillette is an idiot? It is his line. And he spoke in front of Harvard.

But I won't keep poking at this.
 
Okay back to the whole "its allah will for the hurricane " stuff.

I find it ironic that the Tsunami that hit earlier this year and killed a couple hundred thousand people hit an area that is predominantly Muslim.
The Kuwaiti paper cleverly didn't mention that. :rolleyes:

So on the average Allah wants to punish Muslims more than Americans if storms are measure of his dissatisfaction. :nopity:


Allah Akbar........
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
LOOnatic said:
Okay back to the whole "its allah will for the hurricane " stuff.

I find it ironic that the Tsunami that hit earlier this year and killed a couple hundred thousand people hit an area that is predominantly Muslim.
The Kuwaiti paper cleverly didn't mention that. :rolleyes:

So on the average Allah wants to punish Muslims more than Americans if storms are measure of his dissatisfaction. :nopity:


Allah Akbar........
Interesting point.............
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,027
0
Miami, FL
LOOnatic said:
Okay back to the whole "its allah will for the hurricane " stuff.

I find it ironic that the Tsunami that hit earlier this year and killed a couple hundred thousand people hit an area that is predominantly Muslim.
The Kuwaiti paper cleverly didn't mention that. :rolleyes:
You mean the Tsunami that hit resort towns where westerners go to party and wear bikinis...
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,287
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
DRB said:
I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.

Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitmate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?

EDIT: And that the US is nothing more than an instrument of Allah?

I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171669,00.html

Upwards of 30000 dead. Alright Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi what's the dealio? Allah hatin' on Muslims now?
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Queue Pat Robertson and Tom Delay to tell us how God is striking down Muslims.

Really, can't we drop all the religious zealots of every flavor on a deserted island and let the Jihad and crusade themselves to senselessness??? The rest of us could live more or less in peace.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,482
2,153
In my pants
Reactor said:
Queue Pat Robertson and Tom Delay to tell us how God is striking down Muslims.

Really, can't we drop all the religious zealots of every flavor on a deserted island and let the Jihad and crusade themselves to senselessness??? The rest of us could live more or less in peace.
Your a pinko poptart.

(I think that means strawberry)