Like a little puppy who peed on the rug and needs his nose smacked with a rolled up newspaper.ChrisRobin said:N8, you're cute!
www.bushorchimp.comCiaran said:Like a little puppy who peed on the rug and needs his nose smacked with a rolled up newspaper.
Excellent point..................DRB said:I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.
Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitmate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?
I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
DRB said:I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
Thus the slippery slope of believing you have even the slightest chance of deciphering God's will, if you believe he exists. You could justify anything, and just about everything. You could even say having wealth is a sign of god's favor and therefore you are better than the huddled masses, and since God favors you, it's o.k. to take advantage of your wealth to abuse the poor and become more wealthy. After all God must not like the poor, because he made the poor. Pretty soon you're going to a prosperity gospel church and God is a giant vending machine, set forth to cater to your every need.DRB said:I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.
Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitimate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?
I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
Dont even get me started on that prosperity gospel stuff (would rather have inserted a 4 letter word of my choice there) .its utterly amazing and yet sad all at the same time how people can ignore/discard whole books of the Bible in order to make their idea/theology work. I think the word cult comes to mindReactor said:Thus the slippery slope of believing you have even the slightest chance of deciphering God's will, if you believe he exists. You could justify anything, and just about everything. You could even say having wealth is a sign of god's favor and therefore you are better than the huddled masses, and since God favors you, it's o.k. to take advantage of your wealth to abuse the poor and become more wealthy. After all God must not like the poor, because he made the poor. Pretty soon you're going to a prosperity gospel church and God is a giant vending machine, set forth to cater to your every need.
I don't have to rationalize my faith.MMike said:...sort of like being able to rationalize the existence of god?
aaaaaaand...GO! (dance my puppets! Dance for my amusement!)
LOL - If It's Allah's will to ruin the US with a natural disasters, lets see a category 5 hit Chicago, and Miami get buried by snow... Then I may be convinced. neaky:N8 said:
Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?Andyman_1970 said:. . . I think I could ignore the Mary worship better than I could those who. . .
enkidu said:Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
While I don't want to encite a theological kung fu match over this, as a disciple of a 1st century Jewish rabbi, I can find nothing in the Text or Tradition my Rabbi (note the capital "R") came from that indicated I needed to pray to anyone except Yahweh.enkidu said:Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
But remember at the wedding at Cana, our Rabbi performs his first sign during a wedding feast - at his mother's request. She intercedes for the host in need, "They have no wine". And instructs the servers to "Do whatever he tells you". We, too, wish to do His will, but we have a discreet, but powerful, intercessor in his mother. He honors her recommendation like a good Jewish Rabbi, who follows the Mosaic Commandment to honor his parents.Andyman_1970 said:. . . as a disciple of a 1st century Jewish rabbi, I can find nothing in the Text or Tradition my Rabbi (note the capital "R") came from that indicated I needed to pray to anyone except Yahweh. .
He didn't "pray" to Mary. He just respected, loved and listened to her as his mother. Any reason to assume that he wouldn't now?Andyman_1970 said:. . . Jesus didn't pray to Mary or anyone else but YHWH, so as a disciple I don't pray to Mary.
Oh, Andyman, I have seen enough of your postings by now to know that you wouldn't rag or smack me down for my feeble attempt to verbalize my *faith* (oops, it's a smackable offense to use that word here, isn't it?)Andyman_1970 said:Anyway, please understand that wasn't a "smack down" just an my contextual explanation of my "why" on the matter...............
Im with you on the honoring His mother, but again Ill need Old Testament (read Jewish) evidence that dead people are to become our intercessors. There is no record in the Old Testament of people praying for Moses to intercede for them, or for Noah to intercede for them, or for Elijah to intercede for them.enkidu said:But remember at the wedding at Cana, our Rabbi performs his first sign during a wedding feast - at his mother's request. She intercedes for the host in need, "They have no wine". And instructs the servers to "Do whatever he tells you". We, too, wish to do His will, but we have a discreet, but powerful, intercessor in his mother. He honors her recommendation like a good Jewish Rabbi, who follows the Mosaic Commandment to honor his parents.
Youre assuming that those dwelling in the heavenly dimension have the same relationships they did here on earth. Instead of Jesus respecting Mary in the heavenly dimension, I would say (from my studying the Bible of course) that Mary is worshipping Jesus and respecting Him (Isaiah speaks of the whole creation giving honor and glory to God). Remember the Scriptures teach that Jesus is holding all creation together, if that is the case why would He ask His earthly mother to intercede for Him??? Hes holding everything together, not Mary, Hes God, not Mary why would He need her help with His creation???enkidu said:He didn't "pray" to Mary. He just respected, loved and listened to her as his mother. Any reason to assume that he wouldn't now?
Thanks enkidu, I just wanted to clarify that I was not attacking you personally.enkidu said:Oh, Andyman, I have seen enough of your postings by now to know that you wouldn't rag or smack me down for my feeble attempt to verbalize my *faith* (oops, it's a smackable offense to use that word here, isn't it?)
Andyman_1970 said:Anyway, that's why I don't pray to Mary, I'm a disciple of Jesus (which Christians are suppose to be) which in the 1st century being a disciple meant you learned what your rabbi knew, you did what your rabbi did, so that you can become like your rabbi and carry on his teachings. Jesus didn't pray to Mary or anyone else but YHWH, so as a disciple I don't pray to Mary.
At the time of Jesus' Transfiguration Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" in the presence of three disciples, Peter, James and John. (Lk 9:31)Andyman_1970 said:Im with you on the honoring His mother, but again Ill need Old Testament (read Jewish) evidence that dead people are to become our intercessors. There is no record in the Old Testament of people praying for Moses to intercede for them, or for Noah to intercede for them, or for Elijah to intercede for them.
I must reply that the essence of what we are here on earth must be "present" somehow in heaven as well, albeit in the glorified state (that is in perfect unity with Christ).Andyman_1970 said:Youre assuming that those dwelling in the heavenly dimension have the same relationships they did here on earth.
Let me help you guys settle this argument on our very secular website:enkidu said:Oh, but Mary is not "worshipped". She is the mother of our best friend, our suitor, our love. Wouldn't you feel honored to be able to ask your best friend's mother or your lover's parents to pray for you, for your safe trip, and for your well being, for the strength to endure all the difficulties we have to go through?
Ok, so please show me Scripture where the parent child relationship will be intact in Heaven? Also please show me from Scripture where someone other than Jesus can be co-equal in the redemption process.enkidu said:At the time of Jesus' Transfiguration Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" in the presence of three disciples, Peter, James and John. (Lk 9:31)
I think it's a remarkable account of the way Jesus combines the Old Testament world and the New Apostles' mission. Moses' earthly character, representing the Law, and Elijah's, the Prophets, are both intact and still they are shown here as active participants in Jesus' pre-passion earthly moment. (In fact, that was the very first time the pending sufferings of the Messiah was revealed to the Apostles.)
I must reply that the essence of what we are here on earth must be "present" somehow in heaven as well, albeit in the glorified state (that is in perfect unity with Christ).
While I agree that through our actions we can in a small way bring Heaven to earth, and as in the Jewish mindset repair the world and help bring it back to what God originally intended. You still dont address that Mary is somehow in an elevated position in Heaven, the impression you gave is that Jesus in Heaven goes to His mom for guidance and such. Hes the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God according to the Scriptures, according to the Scriptures Mary is worshipping Him right now not acting as some sort of counselor.enkidu said:Which is not too surprising, when we think of being in the "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth as it is in heaven in the Lord's Prayer, which our Jewish Rabbi encouraged us to pray and live.
This is what I was talking about in another thread. Why bash? did they bash your beliefs? Are they preaching? No, they are having a discussion about the nature of christianity. And from my point of view they are likely having one of the more intelligent discussions found in the PD forum.sanjuro said:Let me help you guys settle this argument on our very secular website:
Isn't Mary the mother of your "Imaginary" friend? (that's a quote from Penn of Penn & Teller http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/about.do)
No habla sun and moon talk.........LOL...........this must be a catholic thing...........enkidu said:Thanks, Ciaran / AnotherMike (I like your Medieval flavor better, but whichever. . .), for shielding us from ridicule and encouraging us to continue with this exploration. I'm not a theologian and there are plenty of great books by experts like Scott Hahn ("Hail, Holy Queen") or a nice concise internet site like ( http://members.tripod.com/~Emmaus1/Emmaus.html), where Marian theology is explained lucidly.
I was just trying to depict my view of the beautiful different aspects of the Moon(light), while, of course, admitting that the Sun is the main indispensable source of all light and that our lives depend on it. In fact, I LOVE basking and snoozing in the Sun like a lazy cat!
But yet Moon is there, reflecting the Sun in a unique quiet way helping the night farers make it to the destination. And we, too, reflect and carry the warmth of the Sun within us in our small measures just as the Moon does.
Where are these resources you speak of???enkidu said:The resources above do give them.
That's a funny question. I don't particularily enjoy reading about scripture. And apparently questioning the existence of God is offensive to you, and not worthy of discussion.AnotherMike said:This is what I was talking about in another thread. Why bash? did they bash your beliefs? Are they preaching? No, they are having a discussion about the nature of christianity. And from my point of view they are likely having one of the more intelligent discussions found in the PD forum.
If you don't enjoy reading about scripture then don't read the thread. It's that easy.sanjuro said:That's a funny question. I don't particularily enjoy reading about scripture. And apparently questioning the existence of God is offensive to you, and not worthy of discussion.
I suppose a discussion about religious concepts should be permitted, considering some of the crap which is discussed. Religious freedom cuts both ways. Religion and God should be discussed, as well as athetism and other religions as well.
Penn Jillette is an idiot? It is his line. And he spoke in front of Harvard.AnotherMike said:If you don't enjoy reading about scripture then don't read the thread. It's that easy.
I agree that a discussion about the existense of God is worthy of discussion here, and I am not offended by it. But you did not attempt to discuss the existence of God, you threw out a half assed childish playground worthy remark with no thought or merit behind it.
Interesting point.............LOOnatic said:Okay back to the whole "its allah will for the hurricane " stuff.
I find it ironic that the Tsunami that hit earlier this year and killed a couple hundred thousand people hit an area that is predominantly Muslim.
The Kuwaiti paper cleverly didn't mention that.
So on the average Allah wants to punish Muslims more than Americans if storms are measure of his dissatisfaction.
Allah Akbar........
You mean the Tsunami that hit resort towns where westerners go to party and wear bikinis...LOOnatic said:Okay back to the whole "its allah will for the hurricane " stuff.
I find it ironic that the Tsunami that hit earlier this year and killed a couple hundred thousand people hit an area that is predominantly Muslim.
The Kuwaiti paper cleverly didn't mention that.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171669,00.htmlDRB said:I was reading an article about how Bin Laden is seeking medical treatment for some aliment.
Now if what this particular article espouses that it was Allah's will to strike the US with Katrina is true, wouldn't it be equally legitmate to say that it was Allah's will to end Bin Laden's life. And to even take it further that all of the suffering that Muslims worldwide are living with would be Allah's will as well?
EDIT: And that the US is nothing more than an instrument of Allah?
I guess they will be able to rationalize it, like most extremists can.
Your a pinko poptart.Reactor said:Queue Pat Robertson and Tom Delay to tell us how God is striking down Muslims.
Really, can't we drop all the religious zealots of every flavor on a deserted island and let the Jihad and crusade themselves to senselessness??? The rest of us could live more or less in peace.