[Sandwich]

I'm thinking about upgrading the brakes on my Arrow. I've never been incredibly pleased with my hayes up front, and the hope in the rear is just ok. I'd like to get something with more power and control for steepnessitude. I know there's a huge hope vs. hayes debate, but what about all other comers? I'm a huge fan for trying something different.

I've seen some Clark's Clim8 six-pots, anybody have any input on those? How about Gustavs? I've heard they have real ultimate power, but are heavy and the floating caliper drags. Anybody have any time on Grimecas? I'm not a fan of shimano's new system because I don't want to change everything on my bike. Avid juicies look nice, but not a lot of info is out there.

Should I just not waste my time and get what works? I'm willing to guinea pig it a little here.

 

[FlipSide]

I don't think you need to change everything to use the shimano. Unless I'm mistaken, they still offer 6 bolts rotors and non-dual-control brake levers.

 

[Kornphlake]

Aren't shimano's pretty much the same as grimecas with mineral oil instead of DOT fluid?

 

[steve45]

clarks climb8 6pots are nice brakes good for the price but lever feel is damn nasty, very wooden and slow, not something i could live with.
they are powerful though, and modulatation is ok, never had any long term experience though so cant comment on reliablity.

gustavs on the other hand are nothing short of amazing.
powerful enought to stop the gods, yet the modulate better than any other brake i've felt, this makes for an odd lever feel but you'll grow to love it, the actual shape of the lever blade is very comfortable, as for durability, well over 1 year of abuse without any problems which is more than i can say for my buddies running hayes or hopes :nuts: .

if at all possible try and get yourself a test of these brakes as lever feel may not suit everyone, but you can be sure that they will perform amazingly.

 

[Matt D]

There's nothing more you have to do to switch to Shimano than you'd have to do to switch to any of the other companies you listed.

 

[biggins]

magura gustavs. i ran the piss out of those things and they are strong. hayes can kiss my butt. those things are flamin turds. i dont have any money to get new hydros so i think im just gonna put some avid mechanicals on my dh rig and never worry about it again.

 

[me89]

drew seems to like his avid mechs there strong enough to stop a 150 lb guy on an uzzi bombing down kitzuma. and thats with 8 up front and 6 in the rear.so. if there mechs are any inclintation of how there hydros work then say get the juicies. there awsome looking too and you can say i got the juicies.

 

[Sandwich]

clarks climb8
wooden and slow,

Could you define wooden? How does it feel, say compared to Hayes?

 

[cali4niabiker]

I've tried three different brake manufacturers: Hayes, Shimano, and Maguras.

IMO, Hayes are my favorite brakes simply because of the availbility of the parts AND they are cheap! The Shimanos and Maguras run mineral oil, which has a MUCH lower BP than the DOT 4 fluid of the Hayes. I've run both of them at high temperatures (Talking 7+ mile descent, going 35+ mph) and both of them get real sluggish and modulate slower. I've had to stop and sit for a couple of minutes to let them cool down simply because I am scared to push it any further. Keep going = Hayes has a more consistent feel (it will modulate slower when the caliper is hot, but not to a degree like the Shimanos and Maguras) and I bomb down the same long descent without having to stop.

That pretty much tells all about the confidence I have in the Hayes...

-CAbiker

 

[Dogboy]

Those folks hatin' on Hayes either a)have only ridden HFX-9s b)have ridden poorly bled mags c)smoke crack.

 

[steve45]

Could you define wooden? How does it feel, say compared to Hayes?

wooden probably isnt the best word to discribe it its just a word that sprang to mind at the time when i was thinking about them, when you brake there is no feel, no feedback, know what i mean? its hard to describe.
compared to hayes they are very slow, unresponsive.

 

[8it]

Whatever you get post a full review cause I've never been too happy with my hayes but I love the fact that you can get replacement part anywhere but I might still replace them for next season.

 

[crono35]

I've heard they have real ultimate power, but are

c'mon, nobody's going to say ANYTHING about this?

 

[crono35]

and i vote for avid mechs as well, as long as you're not in wet conditions. if you are, run full length cables.. i hear the solid metal lines are good at sealing open ends too.

 

[Sandwich]

from what I've found:

you can't get new shimano disks in IS...they have to be center mount or whatever. The old ones, which aren't really sold anymore, are IS.

Are Gustavs worth the weight penalty? They seem to be the biggest boat anchors out there. I like the idea of uber power but not if it it's going to weigh more than anything without significant advantage (ie pricewise, modulation, etc.)

Does anybody have time on juicies? I was looking at reviews on MTBR and one dude had a real bad time...now maybe he just sucks with a wrench, but that's all I have to go on right now.

Lastly...while I like my buddy's avid mechs, I'd prefer to stay hydro to avoid cable stretch and etc. Cost isn't the biggest factor- I don't mind paying a little more for what works, but I don't need to have nor pay for hope sixpots, if that makes sense.

 

[Sandwich]

wooden probably isnt the best word to discribe it its just a word that sprang to mind at the time when i was thinking about them, when you brake there is no feel, no feedback, know what i mean? its hard to describe.
compared to hayes they are very slow, unresponsive.

hmm...could this, perhaps, be a positive? Hayes are fairly on/off, when they work right. Sure, they modulate once the power comes on, but you don't get a lot of travel before it happens. Does that makes sense? It's like: "nothing...nothing...nothing...BRAKES.B R A K E S.BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[me89]

Cost isn't the biggest factor- I don't mind paying a little more for what works, but I don't need to have nor pay for hope sixpots, if that makes sense.

i agree i have a friend who has some 02 mags with goodridge lines on a stout and loved them. infact they are going on my new dh bike. that is also another option once you buy your brakes upgrade to metal lines they look a little tacky on some bikes but there worth it. so my vote is towards hayes for a little bit less money. but for the big bucks go with the mono 4s or 6s but you said that was a no go so get the hayes mags. NOT THE 9S THERE JUNK COMPARED TO MAGS.

and i was using the mechs as a comparison not as a suggestion there good brakes but deffinatly get hydros. i will never go back to mechs.

 

[MikeD]

"nothing...nothing...nothing...BRAKES.B R A K E S.BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

But that's how you should brake anyhow...late and hard.

I just went from Hopes to Hayes on 2 bikes, simply because I was damned tired of having to open up the brakes all the time. Maybe they were just old, but I've seen Hayes go for months and years without needing anything but new pads, and they're quicker and more positive to bleed. The 'feel' is a nonexistent issue for me outside of the parking lot, and I've been trying to stop dragging my brakes anyhow.

 

[Hrelp]

I've had hope E4 M4 , Hayes hfx-9,Shimano 4 piston xt and Avid juicies. The Avid juicies offer the most adjustment out of any of them. The design is extremely well thoughtout servicing/bleeding them is a breeze with their kit for 25 bux well worth it. Oh did i mentoin one finger half powered nose manual stopping power? These are THE brakes to get when your doing nonstop chairlift descents. I am simply amazed that a single(dual) piston system could offer such stopping power. I would never EVER buy anything 6piston as i was not too impressed with the stopping power of the new hopes compared to the juicies. If you ever get a leak on a 6piston caliper good luck finding parts and figuring out which piston it might be leaking from.


Btw i have tried the new shimano (the ones that require their hub unless you use a different disc) They offer SICK power as well however they dont have the adjustability that the juicies do.

 

[Sandwich]

juicies do.

do they really offer that much juicy power over say, hayes? Avid has always made good stuff, but I was a little put off by the two piston design. Half of it is the bling factor, but every racing car ever has more than two pistons (yeah, I know, bikes don't weigh what racing cars do). What size rotors are you using? How is the lever feel?

 

[me89]

(yeah, I know, bikes don't weigh what racing cars do

yeh and were not going like 150+. sometimes two pistons is plenty unless you plan on doing run after run after run or racing where you are braking at the last possible second. also hayes dont come with more than two pistons i dont think. hopes and maybee a few others are the only ones now that have more than a 2 piston caliper. i would suggest the juicies cause of the awsome rep they have. also there new leaver design gives you more levrage cause of the postioning of the leaver and this also cuts down on fatigue which is always a good thing. :evil: :evil:

 

[MikeD]

yeh and were not going like 150+. sometimes two pistons is plenty unless you plan on doing run after run after run or racing where you are braking at the last possible second. also hayes dont come with more than two pistons i dont think. hopes and maybee a few others are the only ones now that have more than a 2 piston caliper. i would suggest the juicies cause of the awsome rep they have. also there new leaver design gives you more levrage cause of the postioning of the leaver and this also cuts down on fatigue which is always a good thing. :evil: :evil:

More pistons don't make for a stronger brake. The brake clamps with equal force regardless of how many pistons it's pushing.

Think of it like this. You as a person can move X amount of weight...you can either move 1 item of X weight, 2 items of X/2 weight, 4 items of X/4 weight, etc. Same with a brake.

MD

 

[-BB-]

It is good to hear that the Arrow is still rockin.
I almost regret getting rid of it. Damn I liked that bike.

 

[Sandwich]

It is good to hear that the Arrow is still rockin.
I almost regret getting rid of it. Damn I liked that bike.

it is neat. Totally different. The bike is nice and small for lift riding, but my hands were pretty beat after a day of steeps. I kind of wish the suspension were a little more complicated (read efficient) but I haven't been disappointed with it's versatility. I'm almost thinking of PUSHing it and getting that rohloff in the buysell...no chainslap.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[OGRipper]

You can use hayes rotors with shimano brakes. You don't need the centerlock hubs even if you can't find shimano 6-bolt rotors.

Quote from Mike D: "More pistons don't make for a stronger brake. The brake clamps with equal force regardless of how many pistons it's pushing. Think of it like this. You as a person can move X amount of weight...you can either move 1 item of X weight, 2 items of X/2 weight, 4 items of X/4 weight, etc. Same with a brake."

Makes sense but even if this is true don't 4- and 6-pot calipers use pads with more surface area, meaning more friction per wheel rotation, meaning more stopping power for the same amount of lever pull?

 

[MikeD]

Makes sense but even if this is true don't 4- and 6-pot calipers use pads with more surface area, meaning more friction per wheel rotation, meaning more stopping power for the same amount of lever pull?

Yeah, and you'll need to consult with an engineer on this one. From what I recall being told when I asked the same question, they (ie, dudes on Ridemonkey like Ohio and DW) said that the additional surface area and friction were still distributing the same force over a greater area, so it ends up affecting feel and modulation, not power...or something like that.

The surface area of the pistons also matters, as I remember; not in terms of the number of pistons, exactly, but in the total area available for the fluid to press on.

My Internet Engineering degree only gets me one or two posts deep in this...sorry...

MD

 

[Bicyclist]

BUY AVIDS. They are amazingly powerful and CHEAP and easy to adjust... just be sure to run teflon sealed cable (like Gore-tex or PowerLines).

 

[-BB-]

it is neat. Totally different. The bike is nice and small for lift riding, but my hands were pretty beat after a day of steeps. I kind of wish the suspension were a little more complicated (read efficient) but I haven't been disappointed with it's versatility. I'm almost thinking of PUSHing it and getting that rohloff in the buysell...no chainslap.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I had no problem with the rear susp... It was always the non QR front susp. that bothered me. A nice stiff fork like a z-150SL with a 20mm axle would make that bike really shine (imo) because you could lower the travel/height for uphills, 6in for down, and Air for reduced weight.
Everything else on the bike is stiff as he11. And I LOVED the paint-job.

Got any pics you could post...

 

[-BB-]

You can use hayes rotors with shimano brakes. You don't need the centerlock hubs even if you can't find shimano 6-bolt rotors.

Quote from Mike D: "More pistons don't make for a stronger brake. The brake clamps with equal force regardless of how many pistons it's pushing. Think of it like this. You as a person can move X amount of weight...you can either move 1 item of X weight, 2 items of X/2 weight, 4 items of X/4 weight, etc. Same with a brake."

Makes sense but even if this is true don't 4- and 6-pot calipers use pads with more surface area, meaning more friction per wheel rotation, meaning more stopping power for the same amount of lever pull?

You are missing one more thing.... you can move TWICE as much weight with the same force, if you move it half as far.
I always assumed that these new brakes just had less movement at the caliper piston.

 

[frorider]

Those folks hatin' on Hayes either a)have only ridden HFX-9s b)have ridden poorly bled mags c)smoke crack.

i mostly agree. a real set of hayes (i.e. not the bargain ones) that are properly bled have exc. power and modulation. i switched to goodridge lines and now things are even better. DOT 4 exists for a reason. who cares about paint damage or the environment (both arguments for mineral oil)--i want high boiling point. anyway don't you know that all the cool riders avoid shimano anything, and paint their frames root beer color?

i have some hopes on another bike and they work okay.

overall i prefer the hayes/goodridge setup for hassle free + performance.

i weight 190 lbs. and ride northstar and mammoth, so it's not like my brakes dont' get action....

 

[MikeD]

You are missing one more thing.... you can move TWICE as much weight with the same force, if you move it half as far.
I always assumed that these new brakes just had less movement at the caliper piston.

Yeah, but we're talking about just the clamping force here, right? I think my example was a little flawed. Or does the distance part of the analogy actually hold for the brakes as well? (I'm really out of my depth here and willing to admit it...plus we're derailing the thread...but it does interest me.)

 

[punkassean]

I'm thinking about upgrading the brakes on my Arrow...
How about Gustavs? I've heard they have real ultimate power...

REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!! :angry: :nuts: neaky:

 

[Kornphlake]

I'm not too sure about the friction between the pads and rotor but for sure more pistons will equal greater force on the pads for less force at the lever. I think the only advantage to going with multiple pistons over one oversized piston is space savings but effectively what you're doing is moving fluid from a cylinder of one diameter to a cylinder with a combined diameter of X where X=D1+D2+D3+... The force at the rotor is going to be equal to the force applied at the lever divided by the 2 dimensional area of the master cylinder (the area of a single circle you know pi(r)^2) times the 2 dimensional area of the piston. Ideally you'd have a really small master cylinder and a really big piston but then you don't get much travel out of the pads so you have problems with the brakes dragging. Something to consider is that a piston 1 inch in diameter has more area than 3 pistons 1/2 inches in diameter.

 

[OGRipper]

"You are missing one more thing.... you can move TWICE as much weight with the same force, if you move it half as far.
I always assumed that these new brakes just had less movement at the caliper piston."

Like MikeD I'm not technically schooled in the engineering/physics applicable here, but I'm not sure distance matters since regardless we're talking about force being applied once the pad hits the rotor. I think I can see how different designs could have different leverage ratios, kind of like shock linkages...but that makes my head hurt so I'm doing to stop thinking about it!

And Kornphlake I'm pretty sure that all else being equal a larger pad creates more friction. I could be wrong but in the same way a larger rotor creates more friction per wheel rotation, so does a bigger pad. Either way more surface area makes the difference. Maybe that only translates to more modulation as opposed to power...oww, now my head really hurts...

 

[OGRipper]

"I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town."

Punkassean, that is friggin hilarious...me want real ultimate power!!!

 

[MikeD]

I could be wrong but in the same way a larger rotor creates more friction per wheel rotation

Larger rotors are about more leverage, not more friction.

Kornphlake, your first sentence contradicts your second as I'm reading it...if more pistons=more power, why is the only advantage of 4+ pistons space savings?

MD

 

[punkassean]

there is noting even remotely funny about REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!!!

 

[frorider]

i know all the answers to these tech questions above, but can't be bothered to type them. i'm at work dammit.

:mumble:

 

[cali4niabiker]

REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!! :angry: :nuts: neaky:

man, i spit all over my monitor.... and now i got slobber all over my monitor. :mumble:

that was h3lla funny with that kung fu moves and all... lol!

 

[punkassean]

I can't read any of that page without laughing out loud uncontrollably.

good $hit

the best is the hate mail...