[Sir_Crackien]

i'm thing about getting one of those weyless 67 frames in 18" (i'm 6'5") to make myself a do-it-all bike. i would use this bike anywhere from trail riding to some FR riding. the bike would end up weighting in about 36-37 lbs. this doesn't really bother me because i'm a big guy and i can handle the weight. even though i'm on the bigger side of things i'm consider myself fairly smooth (most of the time). i don't really do anything too big and if it is bigger i make sure the tranny is good.

for those of you who don't know the weyless 67 is a billet copy. it is almost identical.

also i will setup the bike with a relitively short 7" dual crown (the head angle would be about 67.5 degrees), and other lighter weight FR parts that is have. i would run a 75mm stem and a 1" offset seatpost.

my main concern is how well will it pedal? (like i said it is a bullet copy and has a swinger 6-way on it)

anyone with a bullet with a similar setup let me know!

 

[OGRipper]

Personally I wouldn't put my dollars into a company that blatantly and shamelessly rips off other's designs. In my opinion if you want one, just buy a bullit. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I know $$$ is the bottom line for some people.

 

[Bulldog]

Personally I wouldn't put my dollars into a company that blatantly and shamelessly rips off other's designs. In my opinion if you want one, just buy a bullit. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I know $$$ is the bottom line for some people.

You're referring to the Bullit as an original design huh?

 

[Sir_Crackien]

thank you bulldog. cant anyone tell me how the bullet or other very simualiar bikes pedal with a SPV rear shock? that is really the only thing that i'm concerned about

 

[dcamp29]

they pedal fine, and if they don't, dial up the spv

 

[punkassean]

When you dial up the SPV, what exactly do you ask them? Who are the SPV anyway, is that like the FBI or CIA?

Oh you mean reduce the SPV chamber volume and/or add air pressure! I get it now.

 

[BigMike]

Dude, I wouldnt trust a Weyless frame...... especially for FR for a guy your size..... its definantly NOT a "hardtail downhill bike" (to use your words )

 

[HippieKai]

Personally I wouldn't put my dollars into a company that blatantly and shamelessly rips off other's designs. In my opinion if you want one, just buy a bullit. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I know $$$ is the bottom line for some people.

BBBWAAAAHHAAA.....ripping off a single pivot design.....thats priceless....BWWAAAHHAAAA...haha...wow...seriously now...

 

[binary visions]

Dude, I wouldnt trust a Weyless frame...... especially for FR for a guy your size..... its definantly NOT a "hardtail downhill bike" (to use your words )

Actually, besides the rear swingarm being flexy, there haven't been too many complaints on those frames. What makes you say they're not to be trusted?

 

[Incubus]

I never thought I'd say this: Look to mtbr for some info.

There is at least one guy there that has spent time on various model year W67s. Provided it can stand up to moderate abuse, for the price, you can't beat it.

 

[whale]

anyone with a bullet with a similar setup let me know!

i don't know him personally, but i remember a local guy (to us) picking one of these up recently. maybe you can get in touch with him to check the bike out? here is the post he made on dcstreet.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

thanks binary, incubus, and whale. i think i going to get the frame consitering i already have the parts

 

[binary visions]

thanks binary, incubus, and whale. i think i going to get the frame consitering i already have the parts

The real screaming deal about those frames is, of course, the fully built model which retails for less than the cost of the parts. It's like buying a parts kit and getting a free frame.

 

[OGRipper]

"like i said it is a bullet copy"

"for those of you who don't know the weyless 67 is a billet copy. it is almost identical."

"You're referring to the Bullit as an original design huh?"

"BBBWAAAAHHAAA.....ripping off a single pivot design.....thats priceless....BWWAAAHHAAAA...haha...wow...seriously now..."



Technically nothing wrong with it, you are free to make your own choice. It's an ethical issue for me, and like I said, personally I don't want to support it even if there is nothing illegal about it.

Listen to how he described the Weyless. He called it a copy and couldn't think of any better way to describe it than to say it's just like a Bullit.

The Bullit might not be that original - I never said that. Sure, they ripped off the tazmon and original heckler. But SCB was a pioneer in single-pivot bikes and has been around for years developping its products and reputation.

The fact is that Supergo is trading on SCB's hard-earned reputation, good will, and buzz in the market. I mean come on - if you don't see that you're clueless or purposefully ignoring it to save a few bucks, and you're not me.

 

[Incubus]

...The Bullit might not be that original - I never said that. Sure, they ripped off the tazmon and original heckler. But SCB was a pioneer in single-pivot bikes and has been around for years developping its products and reputation...

Weren't Haro in the single pivot game very early on? Even earlier than SC?

Santa Cruz makes some great bang-for-your buck single-pivot frames. They also have a great marketing campaign (see: somewhat premature unveiling of vp-free). They offer a variety of colors to appeal to the kids on empty beer. But I don't think they're the pioneers of single pivot suspension.

They're often referenced as a benchmark (bullit copy...) just because of their market share. If someone said it's a Haro X-3 copy, 50% of the people reading the thread wouldn't know what the h3ll the poster was talking about.

 

[OGRipper]

Weren't Haro in the single pivot game very early on? Even earlier than SC?

Santa Cruz makes some great bang-for-your buck single-pivot frames. They also have a great marketing campaign (see: somewhat premature unveiling of vp-free). They offer a variety of colors to appeal to the kids on empty beer. But I don't think they're the pioneers of single pivot suspension.

They're often referenced as a benchmark (bullit copy...) just because of their market share. If someone said it's a Haro X-3 copy, 50% of the people reading the thread wouldn't know what the h3ll the poster was talking about.

I'm not sure of your point. I didn't say SCB was THE pioneer or that the bullit was a completely original design. I said they were A pioneer, as in one of the pioneers.

This is not about Supergo benefitting from the popularity of a single pivot design. This is Supergo trading on the association people make between it's products and SCB's products. Lots of people see the Weyless and assume it will be the same quality as a Bullit, even though it costs a lot less. One of the reasons the bikes are so cheap is because they don't need to spend much on R&D - just rip off someone else who already built the reputation for quality, use crappy materials and inexpensive manufacturing, then twist the knife by competing directly.

Like I said, it's a personal choice, your call, but I want nothing to do with it. You're not gonna convince me otherwise and I'm not trying to impose my choice on you.

So (to all of you that want to), go ahead, enjoy, ignore the personal responsibility and let the legal system and market forces do their work, it's not your duty to help support companies that have some kind of identity and give back to our sport. Really, it's your right. Eventually we can all ride Weyless's or Treks but your blissfully ignorant consciences will be clear.

(Ok, so that was a little passive-aggressive imposition there. So sue me. )

 

[SDH]

Check out the Reign. Probably get it for a good price.

As far as the weyless, looks cool and for the price, it is like you are paying fro the SPV and getting frame for free.

 

[Repack]

At 6'5", why would you want a medium???

 

[Sir_Crackien]

i would get the 18" because it would be and all a round bike. for an xc bike i ride a 20-21 and to a fr bike i normally find a really long 16-17". also weyless' medium is an 18". i find most 18" a good compromise inbetween too small and too big for me.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

OGRipper i kinda agree with you in the copying aspect but when you say crappy materials what do you mean? techincally the weyless is using better pipes(easton RAD) and a equivalent rear shock(swinger 6-way). anyway the frame right now is less than a third of the cost of a bullet(yes i'm even talking street value not msrp)

 

[dirtyj]

Personally I wouldn't put my dollars into a company that blatantly and shamelessly rips off other's designs. In my opinion if you want one, just buy a bullit. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I know $$$ is the bottom line for some people.

would u buy a M1

 

[Hungry_Hank]

the only problem with the weyless for you is that they dont come with a warrenty. i am also a big guy, although not quite 6'5" im fat, i was considering getting the weyless for a do it all bike untill i found out it didn't have a warrenty. its a great design and if you spec it right it will do fine with pedaling, but a bike without a warrenty says to me that they dont stand behind their work. which is scary.

 

[Repack]

I think that the only bad thing abour buying a Weyless is that you should not expect shops to go out of their way to help you. If you never set foot in a shop, than no big deal.
Also, do you have any idea how their warranty is?
Easton RAD tubing seems to have become the standard tube set for fr bikes. I know Rocky, Sinister, and a bunch of other companies use it.


EDIT: Question answered

the only problem with the weyless for you is that they dont come with a warrenty...

 

[Zutroy]

I'm not sure of your point. I didn't say SCB was THE pioneer or that the bullit was a completely original design. I said they were A pioneer, as in one of the pioneers.

This is not about Supergo benefitting from the popularity of a single pivot design. This is Supergo trading on the association people make between it's products and SCB's products. Lots of people see the Weyless and assume it will be the same quality as a Bullit, even though it costs a lot less. One of the reasons the bikes are so cheap is because they don't need to spend much on R&D - just rip off someone else who already built the reputation for quality, use crappy materials and inexpensive manufacturing, then twist the knife by competing directly.

Like I said, it's a personal choice, your call, but I want nothing to do with it. You're not gonna convince me otherwise and I'm not trying to impose my choice on you.

So (to all of you that want to), go ahead, enjoy, ignore the personal responsibility and let the legal system and market forces do their work, it's not your duty to help support companies that have some kind of identity and give back to our sport. Really, it's your right. Eventually we can all ride Weyless's or Treks but your blissfully ignorant consciences will be clear.

(Ok, so that was a little passive-aggressive imposition there. So sue me. )

You can make that arguement about alot of bike though? Is the FSResk bikes that KHS and other people making the same thing? There are lots of bike that look alike out there. Hell you could say the Super8 one of the bikes that put SCB on the map was a rip off of a Foes Weasel.

 

[OGRipper]

would u buy a M1

No, but thanks for playing.

OGRipper i kinda agree with you in the copying aspect but when you say crappy materials what do you mean?

It was an uninformed generalization that was probably wrong. I guess with the economies of scale (and the economy of almost no R&D!) they can still turn a profit with good materials. I was also thinking about lower quality hardware, manufacturing, and other standards too, not just tubes. But I could be wrong there too, I don't know and was just assuming, so my bad.

But in the end it doesn't really matter to me. It could be the exact same (or even a better) frame and I still wouldn't buy one even at half the price. I just think it's irresponsible to support a blatant copycat. Like I said it's a personal ethics thing - it really has very little to do with the quality of the product.

Some people are comfortable ignoring the consequences of their buying decisions, and I'm sure I'm guilty of it with respect to other products. But knowing what I know about the bicycle industry and how hard it is to survive, I just can't personally justify it.

Look at all the industry support and technical innovation SCB provides. Sure it helps them sell bikes but it also helps our sport. Now please tell me what Supergo does. I mean it, please inform me because I've never heard of them doing anything other than selling stuff cheap. Um yeah that gets people out there who might not otherwise be able to afford a bike but I hope you understand what I mean.

If it's true they don't offer a warranty (I have no idea) that should tell you something about their commitment to you as a customer. By extension I think it's safe to say they're not committed to producing a quality product. Why should they care if they don't need to stand behind it?

Like the people who buy their bikes, the only thing Superho cares about is the short-term bottom line.

 

[vallEbikes]

Personally I wouldn't put my dollars into a company that blatantly and shamelessly rips off other's designs. In my opinion if you want one, just buy a bullit. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I know $$$ is the bottom line for some people.

all the weyless stuf is made at kenisis exactly where santa cruz gets there bikes made. weyles is the supergo house brand
go ahead get it man it may not be as well designed but it is the same quality

 

[binary visions]

It was an uninformed generalization that was probably wrong.

Yeah, just FYI (and this doesn't mean the rest of your argument isn't valid, even if I don't feel the same way) - the bike is made with genuine Easton RAD tubing, good quality hardware, and I'm told it's made at the same place where SC gets their bikes fab'ed (Kinesis).

 

[HTFR]

well supergo has one for 400$(with shock), giver' as they say.

 

[OGRipper]

Yeah, just FYI (and this doesn't mean the rest of your argument isn't valid, even if I don't feel the same way) - the bike is made with genuine Easton RAD tubing, good quality hardware, and I'm told it's made at the same place where SC gets their bikes fab'ed (Kinesis).

Yeah, I get that. Anyway didn't want to get all preachy about it, to each his own and I generally do support a free market. They are a good deal, maybe I'm just another nutter on a crusade...

Edit: Do they come in rootbeer? That would be too much... :mumble:

 

[Sir_Crackien]

no OGripper thaey don't come in rootbeer, but they do come in this cool green color. tis one of those colors that is bright but not at the same time.

also they do come with a warrenty.

quote

"Warranty Info
Frame is covered by a 5-year warranty against defects in worksmanship and materials. All installed components are covered by a 1-year warranty."

i didn't know that they are made by kineses. that is cool to know!

 

[HTFR]

At 6'5", why would you want a medium???

a meduim is 18 inchs! would you ride steep DH on a 20 inch frame?

 

[BMXman]

hmm... me thinks OGRipper better sell all his bikes because nowdays there is no comapny that hasn't copied another...as far as I know the DW link is the newest suspension design that hasn't been copied yet....all this preaching about supporting bike companies to me is just BS...is the bike company going to help pay your bills and keep food on the table....I think not...ride what you can afford and be happy...stop hating on any bike company and just be glad to see another cyclist no matter what bike they're on...but that's JMO...D

 

[Bulldog]

a meduim is 18 inchs! would you ride steep DH on a 20 inch frame?

I do. Never bothered me one bit. Only for DJ'ing and unfamiliar DH's do I totally slam the seat down on my 19.5", and I'm *only* 6'1". With it fully slammed it's pretty useless to me as I normally lean the bike and help steer with the seat hitting me mid-thigh.

 

[Jeff 151]

somebody once said: you get what you pay for. crackien what's up? you work at a shop and you're gonna pay retail for something?! pro it bro! one star rating (i refuse to use emoticons)

 

[Sir_Crackien]

actually jeff i have ordered the frame. the thing i that the shop that i work for is performance and we onw supergo so i did get a discount and i didn't have to pay shipping.

jeff you wouldn't happen to be one of my co-workers?

 

[OGRipper]

hmm... me thinks OGRipper better sell all his bikes because nowdays there is no comapny that hasn't copied another...as far as I know the DW link is the newest suspension design that hasn't been copied yet....all this preaching about supporting bike companies to me is just BS...is the bike company going to help pay your bills and keep food on the table....I think not...ride what you can afford and be happy...stop hating on any bike company and just be glad to see another cyclist no matter what bike they're on...but that's JMO...D

There's a difference between using what has become an industry standard (like the basic idea of a single pivot bike) and blatantly copying a competitor and then undercutting them. But I'm just repeating myself now.

I don't think my opinion is BS but hey, that's your opinion and you'r entitled to it. If you don't pay attention to the companies you do business with, there's nothing else I can say - we just have a different approach, probably to a lot of things. And thanks but I'm keeping my bikes...

 

[Incubus]

OG, I don't disagree with your argument. However, I don't personally feel that SC is contributing greatly to our cycling community. It's likely that I don't go to enough sponsored events to see SC's presence, but I feel that Trek (the other brand that you mentioned in the same context as Weyless) has done more.

SC's role in the repeat application of vpp is another story.

 

[OGRipper]

OG, I don't disagree with your argument. However, I don't personally feel that SC is contributing greatly to our cycling community. It's likely that I don't go to enough sponsored events to see SC's presence, but I feel that Trek (the other brand that you mentioned in the same context as Weyless) has done more.

I don't know why I can't resist responding, this dead horse has been beaten down, but anyway...

"Community" means different things. If you are referring to the general riding community and things like trail maintenance and access preservation, I have no idea what SCB, Trek or Supergo do beyond a few IMBA publicity stunts. I was talking about SCB supporting events, racers and freeriders. It's not completely altruistic on SCB's part but it's something and I don't remember ever seeing Supergo contribute...but I might be wrong about that, that's why I asked to be informed. I mentioned Trek in a different context, as an example of where the industry might be heading. I didn't say Trek copies bikes. I kind of like Trek for what it is, but I disfavor consolidation.

Everyone's notion of fair competition is different, and there is plenty of gray area. To me, it should be enough for Supergo to compete based on the economies of scale and its online business model, without shamelessly trading on another company's reputation for quality. And that is what they are doing - how can people not see that when the best way to describe the bike is to say it's just like a bullit? The association creates a level of comfort and familiarity with the Weyless product and an assumption of quality that would not be there otherwise.

SC's role in the repeat application of vpp is another story.

Not sure what you mean(?)

 

[clancy98]

There's a difference between using what has become an industry standard (like the basic idea of a single pivot bike) and blatantly copying a competitor and then undercutting them. But I'm just repeating myself now.

Maybe you should look at it this way. If weyless can make the same frame, from the same place, same materials, isn't Santa Cruz the company with less integrity for charging 3 times as much? Why do you choose to support, them and not supergo? How do you decide which company is helping cycling more? The one who is charging 3 times as much for their frames, making them cost prohibitive vs a weyless, or the one who took a proven design and sold it for a more realistic price?

I know most people here dig SC so I am gonna get crap for that. But you get the point. Is it a really an ethics thing or do you just like to be in the ironic minority.

 

[Incubus]

Maybe you should look at it this way. If weyless can make the same frame, from the same place, same materials, isn't Santa Cruz the company with less integrity for charging 3 times as much? Why do you choose to support, them and not supergo? How do you decide which company is helping cycling more? The one who is charging 3 times as much for their frames, making them cost prohibitive vs a weyless, or the one who took a proven design and sold it for a more realistic price?

I know most people here dig SC so I am gonna get crap for that. But you get the point. Is it a really an ethics thing or do you just like to be in the ironic minority.

He mentioned SCB as a pioneer of single-pivot bikes. That said, there is an assumption that they've spent money for R&D. That money needs to be recouped, hence the higher price tags. By supergo not having done any R&D, and instead just copying someone elses design, they don't have that expense to factor into the price of their frames.

Whether that is indeed the case at SCB, we don't know for sure.