Wait, you're telling me that people who worship three distinct gods and insist they are monotheists aren't logically consistent?
Hey look, intolerance in the name of God...
- Thread starter JohnE
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I wish I had an expendable 'extra' car. I'd stick that bumper sticker on it and park it in a different walmart parking lot each day with a camera pointed in the general vicinity. How long you think that car would have glass?
Wow I just now saw this thread, so forgive me if it takes a bit to catch up.
One comment about the discussion regarding the Bible (OT vs. NT). I would (and do) argue with my fellow "Christians" that the best way to understand the intent of the Scriptures is to frame them in the context in which they were written. For example, Genesis, the creation story was poetry and not intended to be taken as a literal timeline of the events that brought the earth to be. Now for a while I was in the "literal" camp, but once I started to study and question the background, I began to ask myself "why have I/we placed a meaning on the Text that was not orginally intended"? That questioning eventually led me to be escorted from "their" midst.
Second, everyone interprets the Bible. No one "just takes the Bible at what it says", and if they say that they are either woefully ignorant or purposly deceptive.....or both. Typically when I get into a "discussion" with one of my far right aquantinces (sp?), they argue that they take all the Bible literally and live by it. When I bring up the shrimp thing (the Torah forbids it), they say well that was the OT and Jesus changed all that. Then I bring up a passage that Paul commands Christians to greet each other with a "holy kiss", and I ask when was the last time you greeted Jim with a holy kiss? The problem is everyone interprets the Bible, whether they realize it or not.
Lastly, with regards to the context stuff. I find it very dangerous to "lift" the Text out of the background it was written in. One German theologian in the '50's discovered that in the early '20's and '30's there was a big surge in German churches to deny that Jesus was Jewish and ignore historical work regarding Jesus and the background of the Gospels. This led to those churches "creating" a Jesus that was not Jewish at all, that actually hated Jews. The rest as they say is history. My concern is when folks twist the Scripture to suit their agenda, many times it is contrary to the context in which it was written and thus justify all manner of evil.
One comment about the discussion regarding the Bible (OT vs. NT). I would (and do) argue with my fellow "Christians" that the best way to understand the intent of the Scriptures is to frame them in the context in which they were written. For example, Genesis, the creation story was poetry and not intended to be taken as a literal timeline of the events that brought the earth to be. Now for a while I was in the "literal" camp, but once I started to study and question the background, I began to ask myself "why have I/we placed a meaning on the Text that was not orginally intended"? That questioning eventually led me to be escorted from "their" midst.
Second, everyone interprets the Bible. No one "just takes the Bible at what it says", and if they say that they are either woefully ignorant or purposly deceptive.....or both. Typically when I get into a "discussion" with one of my far right aquantinces (sp?), they argue that they take all the Bible literally and live by it. When I bring up the shrimp thing (the Torah forbids it), they say well that was the OT and Jesus changed all that. Then I bring up a passage that Paul commands Christians to greet each other with a "holy kiss", and I ask when was the last time you greeted Jim with a holy kiss? The problem is everyone interprets the Bible, whether they realize it or not.
Lastly, with regards to the context stuff. I find it very dangerous to "lift" the Text out of the background it was written in. One German theologian in the '50's discovered that in the early '20's and '30's there was a big surge in German churches to deny that Jesus was Jewish and ignore historical work regarding Jesus and the background of the Gospels. This led to those churches "creating" a Jesus that was not Jewish at all, that actually hated Jews. The rest as they say is history. My concern is when folks twist the Scripture to suit their agenda, many times it is contrary to the context in which it was written and thus justify all manner of evil.
Isnt this what basically all religions are doing based on a whole bunch of stories that were written by a whole bunch of guys a whole bunch of years after their profets allegedly lived?
Religion 101 in a nutshell right there.
One of the larger factors in my personal movement towards agnosticism/atheism is how easily the modern Christian community can drag up all the previously mentioned quotes from Leviticus and the rest of the bible to justify their own bigotry and hate, and yet somehow manage to forget the one passage that Jeebus declared was the two most important laws. Seems to me that to a "Real" Christian this passage should be the only one that matters. I'm no Thomas Aquinas, but I have yet to run into one self professed Christian who can tell me why that would be wrong without tying themselves into semantic knots.
I have a FSM fish on my Jeep. I figure its only a matter of time before some "Christian" in this bible thumping town vandalizes the FSM or my Jeep.
That very issue got me "escorted" from the evangelical church I was a member of and preached at, I was asking too many questions.
You are a hero!
If you dont mind me asking... What were you asking?
Seems to me if someone is sensible enough to start asking questions they wont stop asking untill theyre converted to Atheisme or at least untill they are an agnostic.
Religion just doesnt make any sense when you start asking questions.
It only offers comfort to those who are afraid of the truth.
I dont wanna sound like a smartass here, nor do i want to insult you.
Im just intrigued by this stuff.
It is the one that matters to me.
It's to bad the quiet Christians that lead by example are, by definition, not the ones we see and hear screaming on street corners, in the media, in politics, lecturing fellow citizens, and pushing moral legislation. It's a shame that the extremist voices drown out (or guilt out) the moderates, and there's no firm retort from what may very well be a moderate majority.
Good thing other religions like Islam don't have that same problem.
Two things got me escorted out:
I was asking hard questions about the Text and how the church lived it out. Example, they insisted on the door to door stuff, but I taught that, for example, in Matthew 28 when Jesus says "go make disciples" He's not talking about getting people "saved". Or the whole "gay discuss", I taught it's no different than say gossip, lust, or any of the other crap that got glossed over by the church and is tolerated, a sin is a sin....we all sin period. They didn't like that.
Edit: now before anyone jumps on me and says something like "how dare you call homosexuality a sin". I don't see what they do any different than the ways I sin every day, I'm not better than them, I'm just trying more and more every day to live out what my Rabbi teaches, and alot of the time I dick that up.
The second thing that got me "escorted" was my wife and I were having problems, and instead of dealing with them (which resulted in a divorce), they wanted me to just sweep it under the rug. I refused, and argued I could not be healthy and whole if I "swept it under the rug", they stated that God would turn His back on me, that I was abandoning my son (I see him EVERY day now), etc.
For me it's not about conforming to a "religion". If we try to resolve all the questions we have of the Text with our Western Greek educated minds we miss the context in which the Text was written. The Scriptures were written by Eastern Hebrew educated minds that were very comfortable holding two seemingly contradictory truths to be true at the same time. We in our Western minds want to figure everything out, the Eastern mind is comfortable with "mystery" and prefers to live in the now.
Anyway, that's where this crazy journey has brought me...............
Seriously... Those who are THIS anti are usually one themselves.
"But his immaturity and lack of judgment outside the office are clear," Cox's statement added. Cox declined to comment further." hehe... his name is ______.
Before I continue, let me repeat that Im not trying to be an asshat.
I just love the subject and dont have to many chances to talk to "the enemy" about it.
Do you need someone else to tell you whats right or wrong?
Because you think the people that wrote the scriptures were so wise?
Plato is regarded as a very wise man, does this mean we should become communists?
If a god is omnipotent and makes people with sin, that makes him responsible for the sins commited by his creations.
Who is he to judge now but himself?
I just love the subject and dont have to many chances to talk to "the enemy" about it.
If its not about conforming to a religion, what are you conforming to?Two things got me escorted out:
I was asking hard questions about the Text and how the church lived it out. Example, they insisted on the door to door stuff, but I taught that, for example, in Matthew 28 when Jesus says "go make disciples" He's not talking about getting people "saved". Or the whole "gay discuss", I taught it's no different than say gossip, lust, or any of the other crap that got glossed over by the church and is tolerated, a sin is a sin....we all sin period. They didn't like that.
Edit: now before anyone jumps on me and says something like "how dare you call homosexuality a sin". I don't see what they do any different than the ways I sin every day, I'm not better than them, I'm just trying more and more every day to live out what my Rabbi teaches, and alot of the time I dick that up.
Ok, let me explain how I feel about homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon. It happens with animals as well as with humans. Is it a sin to behave in a natural way? And if so, what does an omnipotent god want with this? He makes you sin first and then makes you beg for forgivenes?
For me it's not about conforming to a "religion". If we try to resolve all the questions we have of the Text with our Western Greek educated minds we miss the context in which the Text was written. The Scriptures were written by Eastern Hebrew educated minds that were very comfortable holding two seemingly contradictory truths to be true at the same time. We in our Western minds want to figure everything out, the Eastern mind is comfortable with "mystery" and prefers to live in the now.
Anyway, that's where this crazy journey has brought me...............
Do you need someone else to tell you whats right or wrong?
Because you think the people that wrote the scriptures were so wise?
Plato is regarded as a very wise man, does this mean we should become communists?
If a god is omnipotent and makes people with sin, that makes him responsible for the sins commited by his creations.
Who is he to judge now but himself?
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Wait, I thought Jesus was our co-pilots??!??Wait, what? So now you are Jewish?
Or is JC your Rabbi?
No problem dude, feel free to holler at me any time if you have any questions. I may not have "the answers" but I can discuss.Before I continue, let me repeat that Im not trying to be an asshat.
I just love the subject and dont have to many chances to talk to "the enemy" about it.
My arguement on homosexuality with certain Christians, who argue it's a "choice" to be attracted to the same sex is "when did you decide and make the diliberate choice to be attracted to the opposite sex?" They can't answer it because it's something that is wired / learned (when we're young?). One thing I enjoy about the community I choose to be a part of is that they are tolerant of homosexual Christians. All Christians are sinners, we all gossip, hate, lust, etc...it's just some of us have behaviors that are more of a political hot potato these days.
Everyone conforms to something, their own understanding (which is usually based on expreiences and learning from others) or the understanding from others - that could be a parent, mentor, teacher, etc. I choose to attempt to conform my life to the teachings of Jesus. Which leads to the question of "why?", and that boils down to faith. Everyone has faith of some sort, either in themselves, science or the FSM/God/Alien/etc, or a combination all.
In the Judaic concept of Original Sin, humans don't enter the world as sinners, it's a choice. Christianity has various concepts of that, one of which is that we are born sinners, which gives us no choice.
Just as you Kevin had a disclaimer that you weren't trying to be an asshat, I too am not declaring that all should believe as I do and begin evangelizing all of RM.
Yeah JC is my "Rabbi".........but He was Jewish so I take alot of that stuff seriously.Wait, what? So now you are Jewish?
Or is JC your Rabbi?
What is a 'real' Christian? Maybe this passage was borrowed by the writers of the Bible. If you are capable of loving everything and everyone, the brand of religion is irrelevant. Hasn't anyone read Siddartha?
I listened to this on the way home from work yesterday, pretty interesting and relevant to our conversation.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130380173
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130380173
Oh golly an intelligent discussion about religion (if we ignore that last caller). Gotta love NPR, only place in the media this could happen without screaming and yelling.
Thank you.