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Hi Pivot Trail Bikes?

Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Happymtb.fr said:
Some people explained that mid-high pivot on 29er creates a similar wheelpath as to 26" back in the days that is slightly rearward at first and then mostly vertical.
If so, it might bring back some good memories to @kidwoo :brows:
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Yes but a larger wheel will create a more vertical angle of incidence. Assuming the desired wheel path is inline with the angle of incidence and the same pivot height in relation to the BB and similar BB height between different wheel sizes, a 29" wheel will have a better angle of incidence to wheel path on bumps roughly 1.7" or larger while the 26" wheel will be better at smaller bumps. So that statement is only true in some cases


A rearward axle path is also going to absorb forward momentum making a bike less efficient. An idler pulley will also make a bike less efficient. Why would you want a less efficient trail bike? That us the whole point to them. If you don't care if your bike is harder to pedal around why wouldn't you go with longer travel?
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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Westy said:
Yes but a larger wheel will create a more vertical angle of incidence. Assuming the desired wheel path is inline with the angle of incidence and the same pivot height in relation to the BB and similar BB height between different wheel sizes, a 29" wheel will have a better angle of incidence to wheel path on bumps roughly 1.7" or larger while the 26" wheel will be better at smaller bumps. So that statement is only true in some cases


A rearward axle path is also going to absorb forward momentum making a bike less efficient. An idler pulley will also make a bike less efficient. Why would you want a less efficient trail bike? That us the whole point to them. If you don't care if your bike is harder to pedal around why wouldn't you go with longer travel?
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What part of "new(sic) stuff everyone is talking about" are you not getting?
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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If you've never ridden a high pivot bike you definitely should. Nothing coasts over things in a straight line better. For that, they rule.

But they corner like shit because most of them extend under compression, they tend to flex a lot from the BB to the headtube because the rear support is higher, and they feel like ass pumping transitions. They also kind of feel weird to manual.

Plus the pedaling and momentum absorption issues westy mentioned....
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
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Seattle
kidwoo said:
If you've never ridden a high pivot bike you definitely should. Nothing coasts over things in a straight line better. For that, they rule.

But they corner like shit because most of them extend under compression, they tend to flex a lot from the BB to the headtube because the rear support is higher, and they feel like ass pumping transitions. They also kind of feel weird to manual.

Plus the pedaling and momentum absorption issues westy mentioned....
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Been riding a Forbidden Dreadnought of late, and that's (mostly) my one paragraph review of it: goes smashy smashy real good, corners kinda weird especially in mid-speed, flatter corners, and doesn't pump very well.

The stiffness thing has been fine, but the downtube on them is enormous.
 
Redwood Mulch Chucker

Redwood Mulch Chucker

Monkey
Feb 21, 2020
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SoCo Western Slope
kidwoo said:
If you've never ridden a high pivot bike you definitely should. Nothing coasts over things in a straight line better. For that, they rule.

But they corner like shit because most of them extend under compression, they tend to flex a lot from the BB to the headtube because the rear support is higher, and they feel like ass pumping transitions. They also kind of feel weird to manual.

Plus the pedaling and momentum absorption issues westy mentioned....
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Agreed on all accounts.

The one I have ridden (Zerode) was a beast through the rough chuck, but was "interesting" in berms and pedaled like the chain was made of rubber.
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
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Seattle
HAB said:
Been riding a Forbidden Dreadnought of late, and that's (mostly) my one paragraph review of it: goes smashy smashy real good, corners kinda weird especially in mid-speed, flatter corners, and doesn't pump very well.

The stiffness thing has been fine, but the downtube on them is enormous.
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Oh, and there's an appreciable amount of drag from the idler and lower guide roller, but it's not nearly as bad as I thought it might be if you keep things reasonably clean and the chain lubed. If you get lazy about keeping it tidy it goes downhill pretty fast. I could imagine it getting ugly if you're riding in really gloppy mud but it apparently doesn't rain anymore so I haven't been able to find out.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,943
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Sleazattle
HAB said:
Oh, and there's an appreciable amount of drag from the idler and lower guide roller, but it's not nearly as bad as I thought it might be if you keep things reasonably clean and the chain lubed. If you get lazy about keeping it tidy it goes downhill pretty fast. I could imagine it getting ugly if you're riding in really gloppy mud but it apparently doesn't rain anymore so I haven't been able to find out.
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Soil here is pretty friendly on drivetrains. Try some wet fine alluvial sediment from Southern Utah. Might be hard to find around here, just use partially cured wet cement.
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
Westy said:
Soil here is pretty friendly on drivetrains. Try some wet fine alluvial sediment from Southern Utah. Might be hard to find around here, just use partially cured wet cement.
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For sure. You can get some pretty fucked up stuff over on the east side of the Cascades too, but again, it would have to rain for that.
 
R

Rhubarb

Monkey
Jan 11, 2009
463
238
I'm not sold on this, for reasons pointed out already. The Cosair Maelstrom I had was a POS but the Canfield Jedi was mental. But both were long travel bikes. Great for smashing through rocks but cornering, manualling and pumping, meh.
I would class the Druid as a trail bike but bikes like the Range and Force are 160mm and 170mm respectively and I do not consider this to be in the trail category, and I would seriously consider a high pivot idler frame if I wanted this much travel. Definitely would bang again for DH. For me 150mm is the upper limit for trail and the reason I look for less travel is to have a bike that is responsive and playfull and considering I get through (or over) the rocks just fine I dont see the benefits of going the high pivot/idler route. I ride a trail bike due to a lack of vertical trails locally, so maintaining or generating speed is importantant. Not being able to pump effectively or losing some energy riding over obstacles is no bueno. Another good example might be lifting the front wheel when exiting a turn, when the rear wheel is moving rearwards into the turn and then wanting to return on exiting, it makes for another element that needs to handled.
In all honesty, when all the HP idler bikes started popping up I thought a HP idler trail bike would be sick. But the reasoning was to blast through rocky sections faster. If this was a priority I would be looking to increase travel anyway and I wouldnt be looking for a trail bike.
 
F

fwp

Monkey
Jun 5, 2013
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Seb gave a lesson on subtly shitting on a bike. Anyone who trusts bike reviews is crossing the forbidden off the list after reading that.
 
djjohnr

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,109
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Northern California
Lewis Buchanan on the Range vs the Dreadnought -

"New range feels like less bike, not as long feeling, feels like I am in control of it rather than the bike being in control of me."
 
A

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,182
1,147
I'm definitely curious about high pivot bikes, mostly to potentially eliminate foot fatigue. The terrain I usually ride isn't particularly chunky, but the bottoms of my flat feet start aching once descents start getting longer than a few minutes. This has been an issue for me as long as I can remember, on a variety of conventional suspension types (Horst, VPP, DW, SI), wheel POE (everything from 18t DT to Hydra), and DH level flat pedal shoes (Impact Pros). Even though the suspension on my bikes is getting better and better with each new one, my foot fatigue clock seems to be about the same.

Forbidden looked interesting, especially due to the mullet link availability, but I noped the hell out after Seb's review.
 
6thElement

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
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djjohnr said:
Lewis Buchanan on the Range vs the Dreadnought -

"New range feels like less bike, not as long feeling, feels like I am in control of it rather than the bike being in control of me."
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Who's he currently sponsored by?
His Druid was better than sliced bread.
 
djjohnr

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,109
1,799
Northern California
6thElement said:
Who's he currently sponsored by?
His Druid was better than sliced bread.
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Norco.

If you look at the difference in where the main pivot is on those bikes it makes sense though. I can't find a magnified axle path for the Range, but here they are for the Druid, Dreadnought and the Kavenz VHP16 (which is more of a mid-high pivot). The Forbidden's both have significantly more chainstay growth, and have really long chainstays to begin with.



 
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