[N8 v2.0]

Link: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/08/hijacking_a_macbook_in_60_seco_1.html

Hijacking a Macbook in 60 Seconds or Less

If you want to grab the attention of a roomful of hackers, one sure fire way to do it is to show them a new method for remotely circumventing the security of an Apple Macbook computer to seize total control over the machine. That's exactly what hackers Jon "Johnny Cache" Ellch and David Maynor plan to show today in their Black Hat presentation on hacking the low-level computer code that powers many internal and external wireless cards on the market today.......

 

[syadasti]

Don't forget the many dozens of flaws patched in OSX this month

Intel has updated its Wifi driver for Windows already...OSX, own3d in 60 seconds

 

[Toshi]

the somewhat scary part about this is that the problem is inherent to the wireless device. the demo was with a 3rd party usb-wireless adapter... that means macbooks aren't the only ones vulnerable!

 

[syadasti]

Yah but by far the Intel Wifi chipsets are the most prevalent in laptops and are already patched, so if you are running Windows (most of the world) you just need to update your drivers in most cases. OSX - the exploit is in the wild and works. OSX's only current solution - disable your wireless, its broken security-wise.

OSX's ImageIO gif exploit - just fixed. Window's gif exploit (CAN-2003-1048), fixed two years ago... Good job Apple

 

[DirtyDog]

Don't forget the many dozens of flaws patched in OSX this month

Intel has updated its Wifi driver for Windows already...OSX, own3d in 60 seconds

Downtime to date because of PC viruses: 100's of hours. Downtime to date on Macs used over the years due to "flaws" or "viruses": zero hours.

That is the end of the story and ALL that matters. You may now resume flinging spittle on your monitor.

 

[dropkick]

Maybe I'm just a little evil, but part of me wants to see Apple get a healthy share of the PC market just so it'll finally be worth it for the hackers and virus-writers to go after them. Seeing all the smug art school droupout wannabes wiping the tears off their one-button mice is gonna be great.

I think it's the same part of me that wants to see Hillary get elected just to see all the Fox news tards flip out.

:dancing:

 

[blue]

Downtime to date because of PC viruses: 100's of hours. Downtime to date on Macs used over the years due to "flaws" or "viruses": zero hours.

That is the end of the story and ALL that matters. You may now resume flinging spittle on your monitor.

Same ratio would apply to the number of PCs in the world and the number of Macs in the world. Do you see a correlation?

It's okay, Jobs was an idiot by proprietizing everything and not allowing clones...you can admit it.

 

[spincrazy]

Same ratio would apply to the number of PCs in the world and the number of Macs in the world. Do you see a correlation?

It's okay, Jobs was an idiot by proprietizing everything and not allowing clones...you can admit it.

There were clones. The didn't make the cut. How old are you?

 

[blue]

9.

123

Apple should cave in to reality and realize that all they have left is an operating system. Release it to the masses, crush Microsoft. Winnar?

Maybe yes.

 

[Mackie]

Seeing all the smug art school droupout wannabes wiping the tears off their one-button mice is gonna be great.

I don't know.... it doesn't seem to me that any of the 100s of MDs and scientists using Macs at my place of work are art school dropout wannabes, but I'll ask around.

 

[syadasti]

Downtime to date because of PC viruses: 100's of hours. Downtime to date on Macs used over the years due to "flaws" or "viruses": zero hours.

That is the end of the story and ALL that matters. You may now resume flinging spittle on your monitor.

Here is the reality after working on thousands of PC, workstations, and servers of most platforms. Think different - think again - they are all computers and have the same basic issues. Apple obscurity has negatives and positives, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

9 year of professional IT and web work for 10 companies and various home end users.

Downtime to date on ANY OS due to virus - 0 hours

Downtime due application level or hardware failure - mucho data loss/hours

Downtime due to spyware - one case of data loss/downtime, otherwise lots of hours of prevention/cleaning but no dataloss due to lack of budget funds for a decent client/server solution (ie have to use the freeware solutions rather than a client/server setup typically used for virus protection)

Downtime to due attacks/DoS on freeBSD webserver - maybe a few times a year some years

Downtime and complete data loss due to PATCHING OSX - once and others in the real world affected too

Most recent email from monkey friend - OSX = expensive data recovery attempt and/or possible complete data loss of professional's work (OSX being different = very bad/expensive):

--- X X <X@X.com> wrote:

> Hey X,
>
> How goes it? I'm busy as always with work and the
> girlfriend likes her
> time too.
>
> You know anything about data recovery from an
> external firewire drive?
> My clients Lacie D2 250 gig drive stopped mounting
> on my desktop. It
> has all his old and latest images on it (he's a
> photog) and Tekserve
> wants $1500 just to attempt to recover the files.
> Got an ideas? I
> figured you would be the go to guy for this. A
> friend of my
> girlfriend's in NC said he could do it no problem
> for free, but then he
> learned that it's formatted for a Mac...
>
> Hope you're well

Have you tried removing it from the enclosure and
pluging into the mac internally?

There is the freezer trick which sometimes works for
broken HDDs:
http://www.trisweb.com/archives/2005/06/15/hard-disk-recovery-the-freezer-trick/

If the HDD is not mounting and is really really f*cked
you need a real data recovery service to get your
data.

Is it formated by OSX - if so I assume its HFS+ -
recovery options will be more limited, specialized and
expensive - your friend didn't have any ideas who was
going to do it for free? There is a chance the Lacie
was fat32 (OSX does read and write that format) and in
that case, I assume your free friend can do his job.
Otherwise I have no idea.

Ask X X too (you met him the dinner before I
went to NZ): X@X.com - he's in NYC too and
probably has some contacts too.

I'm doing ok, wish I had more free time too

 

[Ridemonkey]

Here is the reality after working on thousands of PC, workstations, and servers of most platforms. Think different - think again - they are all computers and have the same basic issues. Apple obscurity has negatives and positives, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

9 year of professional IT and web work for 10 companies and various home end users.

Downtime to date on ANY OS due to virus - 0 hours

Downtime due application level or hardware failure - mucho data loss/hours

Downtime due to spyware - one case of data loss/downtime, otherwise lots of hours of prevention/cleaning but no dataloss due to lack of budget funds for a decent client/server solution (ie have to use the freeware solutions rather than a client/server setup typically used for virus protection)

Downtime to due attacks/DoS on freeBSD webserver - maybe a few times a year some years

Downtime and complete data loss due to PATCHING OSX - once and others in the real world affected too

Most recent email from monkey friend - OSX = expensive data recovery attempt and/or possible complete data loss of professional's work (OSX being different = very bad/expensive):

Do you EVER have a point?

Beerdemon's statement was simple: regardless of the cause, he's had a crapload of downtime on PC's, and none on Macs. I can say the same, as can most Mac users.

Hacking a Mac is only news because it's a Mac. People hack PC's every day and no one gives a **** because it's done all the time.

...please don't respond unless you can actually make a point.

 

[syadasti]

I did make a point the reality is they have downtime and security flaws just like any other computer. That is the reality of the mac or any other computer running any OS. Not only that but mac hardware and software is still properietary in some respects and takes more time to repair/release security flaw patches (due to smaller development teams and much smaller userbase).

Often first or second generation hardware is filled with defects which is why most people recommend and buy applecare. On PCs, it doesn't matter so much at all for fixing the hardware - you have dozen of choices and easy parts availability. Downtime in these case will be much worse.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Explain to me how the nature of hardware failure has anything to do with downtime due to viruses or OS flaws, or security (you know, the topic of the conversation).

 

[syadasti]

Explain to me how the nature of hardware failure has anything to do with downtime due to viruses or OS flaws, or security (you know, the topic of the conversation).

Software flaws take longer to patch due to smaller userbase and development teams.

This is evident in this wireless flaw - patched on windows last month for Intel wifi chipsets. OSX - no ETA. Gif exploit - MS patched 2 years ago, Apple this month.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Thank you, that's marginally more relevant.

But it still doesn't address downtime on a Mac versus downtime on a PC. None of these flaws that you seem so worried about have ever affected me in the way that viruses and adware affected me on a PC. Keep grasping at straws.

 

[binary visions]

Software flaws take longer to patch due to smaller userbase and development teams.

This is evident in this wireless flaw - patched on windows last month for Intel wifi chipsets. OSX - no ETA. Gif exploit - MS patched 2 years ago, Apple this month.

So?

Smaller userbase and development teams also mean smaller number of people trying to take advantage of the exploit.

It MS hadn't patched the GIF exploit 2 years ago, there would have been an obscene number of machines compromised because of it. I wonder how many Macs have actually been compromised because of the exploit? There would have been a big fuss if it was any significant number.

BeerDemon's post was about experienced downtime, not potential downtime IF someone wants to write an exploit and IF they want to push the exploit out there to take advantage of unpatched machines.

 

[syadasti]

Thank you, that's marginally more relevant.

But it still doesn't address downtime on a Mac versus downtime on a PC. None of these flaws that you seem so worried about have ever affected me in the way that viruses and adware affected me on a PC. Keep grasping at straws.

There are millions of computer users. Small sample size = invalid conclusion. Your limited end user experience would not mean problems don't exist simply because you don't have them.

 

[Ridemonkey]

First of all, I don't recall ever say that problems don't exist...in fact I'm pretty sure I was explicitly stating it was my experience all along.

Here's the experiment: Me on a PC vs. Me on a Mac. I (the user) am the control, the machine is the variable...any of the Macs I've owned/used has been far more reliable than any of the PCs I've owned/used.

Beerdemon has conducted the same experiment and returned the same result, as have countless other computer users...in fact, I've yet to encounter someone who's used both and would say PCs are more reliable...except maybe you, but you're brainwashed.

 

[syadasti]

BeerDemon's post was about experienced downtime, not potential downtime IF someone wants to write an exploit and IF they want to push the exploit out there to take advantage of unpatched machines.

Gif exploits do exist in the wild as does the wifi (demostrated at that conference.) Talk to someone who works at a large university (I know a few people at Cornell IT), all platforms have faced exploits in the wild.

I personally know someone who patched OSX and lost their data due to the pather patch flaw. Also that email is real, they lost their data and recovery options are more limited. Virus control in corporate environments is an easy task and I've never had any downtime. Spyware control isn't as mature and I have had to cleanup some users, but I've never had the budget approved to buy a real corporate solution - its the only real downtime I've had to deal with.

 

[Ridemonkey]

You're the king of apples to oranges comparisons.

ANY computer behind a enterprise quality firewall, and virus protection is going to be better off than a typical home user. That has no bearing whatsoever.

"I live in a bunker and never go outside, and I've never been sick or a victim of crime. I am IMMUNE to sickness and crime."

 

[syadasti]

First of all, I don't recall ever say that problems don't exist...in fact I'm pretty sure I was explicitly stating it was my experience all along.

Here's the experiment: Me on a PC vs. Me on a Mac. I (the user) am the control, the machine is the variable...any of the Macs I've owned/used has been far more reliable than any of the PCs I've owned/used.

Thus your results are invalid due to small sample size. Talk to me when you've used a few thousand machines from most major makers and OS.

Beerdemon has conducted the same experiment and returned the same result, as have countless other computer users...in fact, I've yet to encounter someone who's used both and would say PCs are more reliable...except maybe you, but you're brainwashed.

I said ALL computers and OS face similiar issues. There is nothing that makes Apple special other than the best marketing campaigns to convince gullible end users like yourself. I've said elsewhere OSX is a more technically sound than XP, but technical specs often don't win various products wars. Beta vs. VHS, HD DVD vs. Bluray, bike brands, computers, etc, etc...

 

[syadasti]

You're the king of apples to oranges comparisons.

ANY computer behind a enterprise quality firewall, and virus protection is going to be better off than a typical home user. That has no bearing whatsoever.

"I live in a bunker and never go outside, and I've never been sick or a victim of crime. I am IMMUNE to sickness and crime."

Any of the end users I've supported in a home environment with virus or spyware cleanup required did not lose any data. They came because their PC wasn't working correctly (slow or other issues). They had no downtime, just sluggish performance and/or possible machine hijacking (for zombie usage).

 

[Ridemonkey]

Thus your results are invalid due to small sample size. Talk to me when you've used a few thousand machines from most major maker and OS.

Do you even read what you're typing? How is stating my personal experience invalid?

I said ALL computers and OS face similiar issues. There is nothing that makes Apple special other than the best marketing campaigns to convince gullible end users like yourself. I've said elsewhere OSX is a more technically sound than XP, but technical specs often don't win various products. Beta vs. VHS, HD DVD vs. Bluray, bike brands, computers, etc, etc...

All that has been said here is that our personal experience has been that we've had far more down time due to the issue with PCs than the issues with Macs. There's no argument against that.

 

[syadasti]

Do you even read what you're typing? How is stating my personal experience invalid?

All that has been said here is that our personal experience has been that we've had far more down time due to the issue with PCs than the issues with Macs. There's no argument against that.

The reality is that downtime happens on all platforms for various reasons. You can't draw any conclusions from a few end-users - its statistically invalid and meaningless to the average pattern.

As its been stated dozens of times, you wouldn't get a real picture of the platform until the conditons are the same - ie if 90% of the world was running OSX, you'd be targeted much more often and the platform would be rigoursly tested in many more iterations of configurations/combinations. OSX is a more secure and technically robust platform, but only takes one exploit to have a problem and exploit patch release not as frequent to the smaller development resources. Downtime for other reasons - hardware failure, storage failure, etc are more problematic on OSX due to obscurity.

 

[Ridemonkey]

There is nothing that makes Apple special other than the best marketing campaigns to convince gullible end users like yourself.

My appreciation for OSX usability has nothing to do with an ad campaign.

 

[Ridemonkey]

The reality is that downtime happens on all platforms for various reasons. You can't draw any conclusions from a few end-users - its statistically invalid and meaningless to the average pattern.

As its been stated dozens of times, you wouldn't get a real picture of the platform until the conditons are the same - ie if 90% of the world was running OSX, you'd be targeted much more often and the platform would be rigoursly tested in many more iterations of configurations/combinations. OSX is a more secure and technically robust platform, but only takes one exploit to have a problem and exploit patch release not as frequent to the smaller development resources. Downtime for other reasons - hardware failure, storage failure, etc are more problematic on OSX due to obscurity.

And as it's been stated dozens of times, 90% of the world ISN'T running OSX, it's NOT targeted as much, and as a result there are fewer issues. Spin your fanatasies as much as you like, the REALITY is that OSX is safer largely because it's not targeted. Couple that with vastly superior user experience and you'll start to understand why I prefer Mac.

 

[syadasti]

And as it's been stated dozens of times, 90% of the world ISN'T running OSX, it's NOT targeted as much, and as a result there are fewer issues. Spin your fanatasies as much as you like, the REALITY is that OSX is safer largely because it's not targeted. Couple that with vastly superior user experience and you'll start to understand why I prefer Mac.

That sounds fair to me. OSX does have a more polished UI, but people can be productive on any UI, even using mainly a command line interface - it just depends on what they are use to and are comfortable using. Its the same reason people don't all have the same bike, car, or whatever.

 

[DirtyDog]

That sounds fair to me. OSX does have a more polished UI, but people can be productive on any UI, even using mainly a command line interface - it just depends on what they are use to and are comfortable using. Its the same reason people don't all have the same bike, car, or whatever.

Holy crap did you just acknowledge different people might like different things for LEGITIMATE reasons!?!?!? :hot:

I think the cows just came home, hell has frozen over, and the fat lady just sung! I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket!

 

[DirtyDog]

Same ratio would apply to the number of PCs in the world and the number of Macs in the world. Do you see a correlation?

Thanks for the post Captain Obvious. I don't give a rats ass about hypothetical situations. The only thing that matters is how much work I can get done RIGHT NOW.

 

[Transcend]

Thanks for the post Captain Obvious. I don't give a rats ass about hypothetical situations. The only thing that matters is how much work I can get done RIGHT NOW.

Exactly. This is why i made the switch back to mac (was on it during system 7 and before) and and now ditching my last PC desktop for a mac pro when they are relased (hopefully) next week.

I HAVE supported multiple machines in a coorporate environment. The only ones that didn't have many issues were the macs. Go figure, huh?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Amega RuLzzz!!11!!111111

 

[blue]

Should the debate now be boiled down to Windows v. OSX?

I'd like OSX on my machine. If I didn't have to crack it. Would be the first OS I'd pay for.

For now, Windows XP Lite will have to do...

 

[Toshi]

Amega RuLzzz!!11!!111111

sheesh, it's amIga, n8

 

[N8 v2.0]

sheesh, it's amIga, n8

whatever the vowel is, it still RULZ!!1!1111111ON311!!!