[ohio]

So I was reading a little US News op-ed on Laura Bush, who has been doing fantastically well on the fund-raising trail... and it made the comment that people like her for exactly the reasons that they don't like Hillary. Unfortnuately it doesn't list any of those reasons.

I realized that I have come to think of Hillary as a raging bee-otch, despite having no good reason to think so. While we're on the topic of media biases, it seems somehow we've been instilled with an image of Ms. Rodham-Clinton based purely on rumor and conjecture. I'm as guilty of believing it as anyone.

So I'm hoping someone has specific examples one way or the other to prove or disprove to belief. What has she done that makes people hate her? Is it that she kept her last name? Stood by her husband after a public affair? Wrote a book about raising children? Has her own career, outside of her husband's (So did Elizabeth Dole)? Keeps strict watch over her advisees and assistants (something GWB is also reknowned for)? Entered New York politics as an out-of-stater? Is intelligent and ambitious?

Throw me a friggin' bone here. Maybe I'm just misinformed.

 

[llkoolkeg]

I will ignore the framing of it for the moment and focus on the question itself...

I count myself among those that despise her, but mostly for reasons other than the ones you listed. I despise:

*her politics(in general)
*her husband
*her attempt to socialize medicine
*her opinion/treatment of the military/soldiers
*her investment scandals
*her unfair comments RE: Tammy Wynette
*her gun control agenda
*her NY carpetbaggery
*her coy flirtation with a Presidential run
*her Afghan/Iraq grandstanding
*her shrewish voice and mannerisms

I could go on forever. Sadly, I would welcome a more centerist female candidate for President just as much as I would a minority one, but Hillary does not fit the bill. The more I learn about her, the more I realize that Bill was simply a Trojan Horse.

 

[CRUM]

Originally posted by ohio
What has she done that makes people hate her? Is it that she kept her last name? Stood by her husband after a public affair? Wrote a book about raising children? Has her own career, outside of her husband's (So did Elizabeth Dole)? Keeps strict watch over her advisees and assistants (something GWB is also reknowned for)? Entered New York politics as an out-of-stater? Is intelligent and ambitious?

Throw me a friggin' bone here. Maybe I'm just misinformed.

Yeah, all of those and more. But I think her biggest problem is that she is Bill's wife. Talk about working from a negative. Republicans hate Bill so much, I am guessing 3 or 4 generations will have to pass before they won't hold a grudge against his descendants.

The out of state thing is not the big deal it once was. Look at GW. No self-respecting Texan would allow him citizenship claims other than the legal ones. And yet, he was able to take on the good ole boy disguise and make it to the White House. Where you were from originally matters little now.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg

*her opinion/treatment of the military/soldiers
*her unfair comments RE: Tammy Wynette
*her Afghan/Iraq grandstanding

Could you expound upon those a little? Sadly, I'm not that familiar with her actual politics... all I know is I have a definite image of her in my head as a domineering beeatch and I'm trying to figure out why.

I also still don't entirely believe the Trojan horse thing. She has never seemed to hide her own political aspirations... I thought that was one of the reasons she was disliked.

 

[DRB]

Em...
She's got fat ankles.

:devil:

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by ohio
Could you expound upon those a little?

1. She stated publicly(before Bill's rise to power) that she "loathes the military" and was famous for assigning degrading tasks to the military personnel assigned to the office of President. My brother-in-law was in the "Old Guard" and was often detailed during ceremonial functions, e.g. visiting dignitaries, state dinners, etc.

2. During an interview, she said "...I'm not just some Tammy Wynette standing by my man in all of this..." Tammy Wynette was more of a true feminist and ahead-of-her-time than Hillary could ever realize. At least Hillary later apologized for her misrepresentation, though not in as public a forum.

3. Her flying to Afghanistan/Iraq like Jesse for a combination photo op/undercut of Dubya's visit. It's funny, though, watching the Dems scamper about trying to appear relevent and "Presidential".

Don't get me wrong- I dislike the Republicans as much as the Democrats, but I have a special place in my heart of darkness for Mrs. Clinton.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
1. ..."loathes the military" ...

3. Her flying to Afghanistan/Iraq like Jesse for a combination photo op/undercut of Dubya's visit.

Haven't heard about 1, but would seem weird, considering they were protecting her family once she was in the white house.

Just as FYI - she planned her trip before Dubya (so, technically, it might be that Dubya was trying to undercut her visit - which was advertised and known about -- she wasn't able to just show up in Iraq -- she doesn't have the resources).

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by ohio
So I was reading a little US News op-ed on Laura Bush, ... and it made the comment that people like her for exactly the reasons that they don't like Hillary.

What has she done that makes people hate her? Is it that she kept her last name?

Has her own career, outside of her husband's (So did Elizabeth Dole)?

I think one of the biggest problems Hillary had (has?) was lack of playing nice with others -- she did a very bad PR job when she was trying to change the healthcare system and (this is conjecture) she tried to bully a lot of people into doing what she said (because she had the white house support behind her). Whether or not she had a good idea is a separate point, I think she didn't play nice with congress and got trashed in the media for it. Elizabeth Dole (and possibly Laura Bush, too) is a great room worker -- she also is able to utilize the old boy network.

 

[Toshi]

here's a link for your collective perusal:

http://www.zpub.com/un/billc-5.html

i dislike her for her attitude, and for her horrible plan to socialize the health care system. people who don't know anything about a given issue should NOT write policy about it. too bad that they do... (a reference: http://www.gargaro.com/healthcare.html, with the relevant quote "According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the Clinton Health Care Plan would have increased federal spending by $1.584 trillion over five years. (CBO Analysis, 2/94) Nearly all of this enormous cost would have been paid for with new taxes on working Americans.")

ah, here's another reason to dislike her (from http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/22/173051.shtml ), altho i suppose being dishonest just comes with being part of the clinton household...

Many of her supporters credit Mrs. Clinton with a steel-trap mind and a sharp memory for detail. However, Mrs. Clinton stated 250 times that she could neither remember nor recall events when asked about various scandals while under oath.

actually, just read that whole article, it outlines many of the points rehashed above.

http://www.zpub.com/un/hillc.html is interesting as well, altho it seems rather unverifiable.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by Toshi

According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the Clinton Health Care Plan would have increased federal spending by $1.584 trillion over five years. (CBO Analysis, 2/94) Nearly all of this enormous cost would have been paid for with new taxes on working Americans.")

Well Bush has apparently done the samething in regards to spending BUT he seemed to forget the whole where is the money coming from side of it.

I guess Clinton was just smarter to remember to spend money you have to have money. Tax and Spend has been replaced with Spend and em.........ah.........well... oh don't worry about it let our kids pay the bill when it comes due.

 

[CRUM]

Originally posted by Toshi
here's a link for your collective perusal:


ah, here's another reason to dislike her (from http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/22/173051.shtml ), altho i suppose being dishonest just comes with being part of the clinton household...

I am no fan of Hillary's. But as soon as you used newsmax to bolster your reasoning, you lost me. They have a lot of nerve even using the word news in their title.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by CRUM
I am no fan of Hillary's. But as soon as you used newsmax to bolster your reasoning, you lost me. They have a lot of nerve even using the word news in their title.

hey, i just googled all of those links anyway, don't blame me . and they did seem biased, yes. but they can't be making stuff completely up, the 250 denials of remembrance must be in the public record _somewhere_...

 

[Silver]

I've never understood the American fear of socialized medicine, it's almost like some weird twisted fetish. Everyone completely ignores that fact that if medicine was socialized, you could stop paying $400 a month for mediocre HMO coverage for 2 people around the age of 30....

Plus, you could actually quit that ****ty job you hate and look for something you like because you wouldn't have to worry about a $15,000 appendix inflamation bankrupting you.

 

[N8 v2.0]

 

[Damn True]

She is a socialist.

...end of story.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Damn True
She is a socialist.

...end of story.

So was Jesus, I believe.

And since it's comic day, here's one I like:

The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus

 

[laura]

Originally posted by Silver
I've never understood the American fear of socialized medicine, it's almost like some weird twisted fetish. Everyone completely ignores that fact that if medicine was socialized, you could stop paying $400 a month for mediocre HMO coverage for 2 people around the age of 30....

Plus, you could actually quit that ****ty job you hate and look for something you like because you wouldn't have to worry about a $15,000 appendix inflamation bankrupting you.

ahhh a voice of reason. i am all for socialized medicine. sort of like public education, everyone should have it, even if it isnt top notch. and i dont want to hear about how it doesnt work in other places. if over half of the US has no health care then our system isnt working either.

 

[laura]

Originally posted by Damn True
She is a socialist.

...end of story.

is that all?

 

[beckah]

Originally posted by charmin
Haven't heard about 1, but would seem weird, considering they were protecting her family once she was in the white house.

how was the military protecting her family?

if you are referring to the secret service, they are run through the dept. of treasury and have nothing to do with the military

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by Silver
I've never understood the American fear of socialized medicine, it's almost like some weird twisted fetish. Everyone completely ignores that fact that if medicine was socialized, you could stop paying $400 a month for mediocre HMO coverage for 2 people around the age of 30....

Plus, you could actually quit that ****ty job you hate and look for something you like because you wouldn't have to worry about a $15,000 appendix inflamation bankrupting you.

Okay so exactly where does the money for a socialized system of medicine come from? Do you think that it is really free?

Or do you have a medicine tree (same family as the money tree) in your backyard?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by Silver
I've never understood the American fear of socialized medicine, it's almost like some weird twisted fetish. Everyone completely ignores that fact that if medicine was socialized, you could stop paying $400 a month for mediocre HMO coverage for 2 people around the age of 30....

Plus, you could actually quit that ****ty job you hate and look for something you like because you wouldn't have to worry about a $15,000 appendix inflamation bankrupting you.

Why not work hard to get a better job where you can get benefits as part of the reward for your efforts? Why should I pay more in tax $'s just because some slacker doesn't want to work..?? Do you know the tax burden on countries with socialized medicine?

Besides, the last thing I want between me and my doctor when I am sick or injured is the government telling me what I can and can't have.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by laura
is that all?

One of many reasons, but isn't that enough?

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by laura
ahhh a voice of reason. i am all for socialized medicine. sort of like public education, everyone should have it, even if it isnt top notch. and i dont want to hear about how it doesnt work in other places. if over half of the US has no health care then our system isnt working either.

Ok it dosen't work anywhere else so we should use it too? Good idea.

Our healthcare system works for me, why would I, or anyone else for that matter endorse a system that would REDUCE the quality of healthcare available to them?

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Damn True
Ok it dosen't work anywhere else so we should use it too? Good idea.

Our healthcare system works for me, why would I, or anyone else for that matter endorse a system that would REDUCE the quality of healthcare available to them?

Who says it doesn't work anywhere else?

The British National Health service may not be fantastic but I'd sure as hell rather have it than not.

And it would work a darn sight better (as it used to) if successive right-wing governments hadn't done much to undermine it for the sake of idealogical capitalist dogma.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by Damn True
She is a socialist.

...end of story.

She's not a socialist -- don't be ridiculous. Socialism is an economic driven policy where everyone owns everything (i.e. there is no private property). Without question, I think everyone would agree she is a capitalist. (And if not, I'd like to hear their reasons why).

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by charmin
She's not a socialist -- don't be ridiculous. Socialism is an economic driven policy where everyone owns everything (i.e. there is no private property). Without question, I think everyone would agree she is a capitalist. (And if not, I'd like to hear their reasons why).

She's a socialist to the point of making government responsible for every aspect of an American's life. She wants you and I to come to depend on the government to feed us, house us, tend our health needs... that will be her source of power.

The best way to defeat a strong and proud people is to do as I stated above... for a good example of this just look at the American Indians.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by N8
She's a socialist to the point of making government responsible for every aspect of an American's life. She wants you and I to come to depend on the government to feed us, house us, tend our health needs... that will be her source of power.

The best way to defeat a strong and proud people is to do as I stated above... for a good example of this just look at the American Indians.

Wow! I am sure you have a lot of logic behind these statements, or you may be exaggerating for effect. However, obviously Hillary won't gain power if everyone gets fed, housed and their health needs taken care of -- instead the government will crumble. We can't pay for it. Though, I doubt you really meant that Hillary wants to feed everyone. She does, I believe, want to make sure no one starves to death or freezes to death, and that if you need health care you will not be denied it (just because you cannot pay for it). I would think (but do not know) that she wants to make sure that the people who need help get it.

There *is* a difference between reality and theory. An example of this is welfare -- the plan was to stop people from suffering unduly, but instead, it crippled some people (i.e. functioned as such a crutch they are unable to work for themselves at this point) .

However, step back from the American Indian example.

Don't act like "American Indians" were ever a cohesive group. They were not. But more importantly, I felt their downfall had more to do with the planned genocide that took place through germ warfare (i.e. small pox infested blankets). Not to mention the deadly impact the common cold had on the population (because they had no immunity to it -- but this at least wasn't on purpose).

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by N8
Why not work hard to get a better job where you can get benefits as part of the reward for your efforts? Why should I pay more in tax $'s just because some slacker doesn't want to work..?? Do you know the tax burden on countries with socialized medicine?

Besides, the last thing I want between me and my doctor when I am sick or injured is the government telling me what I can and can't have.

Of course I know the tax burden. I'm from Canada, so I've seen it first hand. And what I'm saying is that once you get over the fact that "THE GOVERNMENT" is basically your insurance company (and since they are the only game in town, they have a lot more negotiating clout than Blue Cross does) and you pay premiums through taxes, I thought it worked very well.

Personally, I'm not better off in the US health care wise than I was in Canada. I can afford to pay my health insurance every month, but there are many people who can't. When I look at my tax burden between Canada and the US, I don't feel like I'm getting a lot for my money here.

Your slacker comment makes zero sense, by the way. You're already paying for people who don't want to work, because they just go to the emergency room, and they can't be turned away. You end up paying for the free riders through your higher insurance premiums (or if you don't have insurance, you really get screwed by hospitals trying to make up their profit margin on cash patients.)

The other point is that not everyone can get a job with benefits. It would be great if that were the case, but how many employers right now are offering health insurance on lower paying jobs to workers that aren't unionized? We can't all be managers or white collar workers. Hell, if you start to cost too much, you'll just get your ass outsourced to India, and lose your health coverage that way.

Basically what the American system of healthcare does is benefit insurance companies above everyone else. I've seen many numbers that place the US cost of healthcare administration to levels about twice the ones that Canada pays. That's money you're spending that doesn't go to doctors, nurses, or patient care.

Also, FYI, the government already has a huge hand in what your doctor does with your healthcare. Try to get a prescription for medical marijuana (PLEASE lets not start that debate again, merely for illustrative purposes here ) and see if your government interferes with the care your doctor gives you.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Damn True
Ok it dosen't work anywhere else so we should use it too? Good idea.

Our healthcare system works for me, why would I, or anyone else for that matter endorse a system that would REDUCE the quality of healthcare available to them?

DT, look at the life expectancy in first world countries with socialized medical care vs the US. There aren't too many first world countries with socialized medical care that rank below the US in life expectancy at birth.

The US has the best emergency care system in the world. It does not by any stretch of the imagination have the best healthcare system.

 

[N8 v2.0]

If Canada's system is so great how come there are far more Canadians living and working in the US than Americans living and working in Canada?

I was offered a job my Intel to work in Ireland but at the ridiculous tax rate they have there to pay for all the socialized goverment programmes there, my take salary wasn't squat.

No thanks, I'll pay my monthly $210.50 Blue Cross premium, go to almost any Dr I choose whenever I want (no referal for me) and stay right here in the US.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by N8
I was offered a job my Intel to work in Ireland but at the ridiculous tax rate they have there to pay for all the socialized goverment programmes there, my take salary wasn't squat.

You were offered a chance to work abroad and you turned it down? Ireland is beautiful and, you can bike there. Dublin is quite fun and hopping. You can get to the countryside very quickly -- the cliffs, the views, the people -- it's all great (and the food has much improved).

Listen, if they still have that job, I totally want it (ok -- I sell computer software/systems integration -- but would love to live abroad for awhile).

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by N8
If Canada's system is so great how come there are far more Canadians living and working in the US than Americans living and working in Canada?

I was offered a job my Intel to work in Ireland but at the ridiculous tax rate they have there to pay for all the socialized goverment programmes there, my take salary wasn't squat.

No thanks, I'll pay my monthly $210.50 Blue Cross premium, go to almost any Dr I choose whenever I want (no referal for me) and stay right here in the US.

Most of them didn't leave because of the healthcare system. A lot of it seems to be the weather....

By the way, is that the best argument you can come up with? Were you going to touch on any of the other issues?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by charmin
You were offered a chance to work abroad and you turned it down? Ireland is beautiful and, you can bike there. Dublin is quite fun and hopping. You can get to the countryside very quickly -- the cliffs, the views, the people -- it's all great (and the food has much improved).

Listen, if they still have that job, I totally want it (ok -- I sell computer software/systems integration -- but would love to live abroad for awhile).

Job was designing and maintaining their clean rooms... my part would have been the electrical systems that keep them operating.

Donno if they are still hiring as this was 1994.

 

[Damn True]

Yes, Intel is hiring for their FAB in Kildaire (sp?)

Hillary and her ilk want as many people as possible to be dependant on the Govt. in one form or another.
Why?
Voters.
If every four years they can remind those who have been sucking at the teat of the Govt. how much they do for them they stand a better chance of remaining in power.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by Damn True
Yes, Intel is hiring for their FAB in Kildaire (sp?)

Hillary and her ilk want as many people as possible to be dependant on the Govt. in one form or another.
Why?
Voters.
If every four years they can remind those who have been sucking at the teat of the Govt. how much they do for them they stand a better chance of remaining in power.

You think this is the prime demographic of voters? Hello? If you're busy making sure there is food on the table and working 3 jobs and getting food stamps, you're not always as prone to know when election day is.....

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by charmin
You think this is the prime demographic of voters? Hello? If you're busy making sure there is food on the table and working 3 jobs and getting food stamps, you're not always as prone to know when election day is.....

Which is why they are targeting that group. An untapped rescource.

 

[charmin]

Originally posted by Damn True
Which is why they are targeting that group. An untapped rescource.

As it turns out, sales and politics are very closely linked. If you get to choose who you're going to sell, the person who has already bought your product before, and a person who doesn't know anything about your product (i.e. the untapped resource) the easier sale is the person who knows the worth of the product, and not the one you have to educate first.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by charmin
As it turns out, sales and politics are very closely linked. If you get to choose who you're going to sell, the person who has already bought your product before, and a person who doesn't know anything about your product (i.e. the untapped resource) the easier sale is the person who knows the worth of the product, and not the one you have to educate first.

True, but it is easier to keep the customer who has never tried the competitions product than it is to sway a customer over to your own when they are satisfied, or at least comfortable with the other.

 

[laura]

Originally posted by Damn True

Our healthcare system works for me, why would I, or anyone else for that matter endorse a system that would REDUCE the quality of healthcare available to them?

thats an excellent attitude to have.

i am sorry. it doesnt seem like such a bad idea for me to give up a little of my excellent health coverage that i thankfully never have to use, so that others can go to a doctor when they are sick. i know and deal with too many people who are unfortunate enough to not have health coverage and i have watched them suffer through many illnesses that would make me cry like a baby if i couldnt get my antibiotic or pain killers or cough medicines or nose sprays for.


health care is a necessity that shouldnt be doled out to only those lucky enough to work for a company that provides it. or to those who can afford the ridiculous premiums.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by laura
thats an excellent attitude to have.

i am sorry. it doesnt seem like such a bad idea for me to give up a little of my excellent health coverage that i thankfully never have to use, so that others can go to a doctor when they are sick. i know and deal with too many people who are unfortunate enough to not have health coverage and i have watched them suffer through many illnesses that would make me cry like a baby if i couldnt get my antibiotic or pain killers or cough medicines or nose sprays for.


health care is a necessity that shouldnt be doled out to only those lucky enough to work for a company that provides it. or to those who can afford the ridiculous premiums.

Here's an idea to make health care cheaper:

1. Use second or third rate medical staff with no monetary incentive for doing a good job (see your local Dept of Motor Vehicles staff).

2. Make it so trail lawyers can't sue for anything medical related and reap millions of $'s.

There's more but you should get the idea.