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History or Politcal Correct (PC)

mikec918

Chimp
Aug 22, 2001
89
0
Virginia
There is talk of making a monument of the Photo of three firemen raising the flag at the World Trade Center on 9-11-01.


The Forces of Political Correctness want to make changes to the statue, including changing the race of two of the fire fighters.


Do you think that the statue show be Historicail (SP) accurate

Or Political Correct.



Comment: I know that the contribution of African Americans thoughout the country's history have been over looked. To include their contributions to the Civil War, The American Indian Wars, Spanish American. First and Second World War and Korean War have been over looked. But wouldn't the decation of a monument to these Soldier at some place like Arlington National Cemetrary. Be a better contribution.

Under PC, teachers today teach students about contributions of African American that never occured. Because this is easier then doing the research and finding heroic (SP) events that accually occured.
 

gravity plus

Chimp
Nov 22, 2001
21
0
Foxboro, MA.
whatever race the men were who raised the flag on 9/11 should be that race on the statue. Give credit where it's deserved. And NO, that last comment wasn't a rascist one either.
 

mr_dove

Monkey
Jan 18, 2002
179
0
Denver, CO
I'm for equality

TOTALLY against Political correctness and affirmative action. They are the opposite of equality because they give special treatment to minorities.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
Statues are works of art meant to convey a message so in that respect i suppose it doesnt matter who's face is on the statue. Although personally i think it should be the original faces. Just a thought however what if you were to replace one of the faces with a man of Arabian/American descent?
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Changing the faces would be PC but it would also be a horrible lie to pretend that minorities in America are actually treated with equality and equal protection under the law.:eek::D :eek:
 
T

Tenaciousle0

Guest
Originally posted by Serial Midget
Changing the faces would be PC but it would also be a horrible lie to pretend that minorities in America are actually treated with equality and equal protection under the law.:eek::D :eek:
everybody knows the only good minorities are Native Americans.......Just kidding.... ahhh stop hitting me:D
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,031
7,549
Good topic. I remember discussing this over lunch with politically minded friends this spring. I am firmly of the opinion that the faces should stay as they were.
 

mrsdove

Chimp
Aug 7, 2002
18
0
Denver, CO
I think it should be historically correct. My reason: what do I tell my child who notices the difference between the picture and the monument? I don't want my child being raised to think that minorites or whites should be treated any different.
 

splat

Nam I am
I don't feel it should be changed just to make it politially correct BUT ! ( OK, Here is the Kicker ! ) They can't make it the same as the Photo. The photo is copywrited and the photographer refuses to give permission ( he wants to own he rights to the REAL image, or they won't Pay him however much he wants, depends who you listen too ) So they are left with No Choice but to change it. which makes it a whole new Ball game !
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Oh somebody please save us from the organized forces of political correctness...... Once again putting down the poor white man. :rolleyes:

Personally I hold that historical accuracy has had very little to do with the erection of monuments. The three people in that photo weren't supermen, they were average Americans doing their job damn well in a time of crisis. They symbolize a lot for all of us regardless of their race. Making the monument symbolically more representative of us as a nation is not a bad idea.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,031
7,549
Originally posted by Spud
Oh somebody please save us from the organized forces of political correctness...... Once again putting down the poor white man. :rolleyes:
Time to bastardize this thread: I find affirmative action galling not because I'm a white man (which I'm not, just in case "Toshi" isn't clear enough), but because it is selective (aka discriminatory) itself. I and my sister have had to prove ourselves academically more than most of our peers because Asians tend to do well, so are overrepresented. So your sarcastic point is almost correct, except I'm not white.

Anyway, I acknowledge that this is a tangent from the monument topic. But it's relevant, and interesting (imo). Run with the ball. :D
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,750
439
MA
The statue should be accurate.

It's sad what's happening to our country with the countless number of laws, and on top of that, the fact that you have to be PC or you're bound to offend someone. Makes me want to move to Canada :eek:
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Originally posted by Inclag
The statue should be accurate.

It's sad what's happening to our country with the countless number of laws, and on top of that, the fact that you have to be PC or you're bound to offend someone. Makes me want to move to Canada :eek:
Oh, the Irony. Better brush up on your French language and Socialist theory....;)
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by splat
I don't feel it should be changed just to make it politially correct BUT ! ( OK, Here is the Kicker ! ) They can't make it the same as the Photo. The photo is copywrited and the photographer refuses to give permission ( he wants to own he rights to the REAL image, or they won't Pay him however much he wants, depends who you listen too ) So they are left with No Choice but to change it. which makes it a whole new Ball game !
All they have to do to avoid a problem with that is change the location of one of their hands.

If they erect a monument it should reflect reality. There has been enough historical revision. Everyone knows there are firefighters in NY representing all races, creeds, and both sexes.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by Damn True
If they erect a monument it should reflect reality. There has been enough historical revision. Everyone knows there are firefighters in NY representing all races, creeds, and both sexes.
I don't. All I ever see on TV involving NYFD is white men with big smiles and steady jobs.

Wasn't the King James version of the Bible considered revisionist in it's day?:eek:
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by Serial Midget


I don't. All I ever see on TV involving NYFD is white men with big smiles and steady jobs.

Wasn't the King James version of the Bible considered revisionist in it's day?:eek:

Then you aren't looking hard enough and you are being silly in allowing your only source of news to be network TV. I lived in NYC for nearly three years. Trust me. The NYFD is highly multi-ethnic.

....and the jab at KJV was pretty weak, it takes more than that to provoke me.
 

cliffster5

In dog years I'm dead
Aug 23, 2001
331
1
Salinas, CA
Originally posted by Damn True


I lived in NYC for nearly three years. Trust me. The NYFD is highly multi-ethnic.
.
DT you may be the one to ask then... I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that NYFD had some controversy around hiring practices and advancements in terms of minorities. Not sure if I'm remembering this correctly but it seems that there was some degree of a glass ceiling on blacks in the upper reaches of the NYFD administrative hierachy as well as unrepresented numbers at the firehouse level. Maybe you can shed some light on this ( I think this also may have come to reflect negatively on Guiliani and his record w/people of color- particularly the heavy hand of the police in dealing with non-white crime).

I think the statue should reflect historical fact btw (even if some of those facts point to institutionalized racism should that in fact be the history- i.e. lower hiring quotas for blacks in the NYFD)
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by cliffster5


DT you may be the one to ask then... I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that NYFD had some controversy around hiring practices and advancements in terms of minorities. Not sure if I'm remembering this correctly but it seems that there was some degree of a glass ceiling on blacks in the upper reaches of the NYFD administrative hierachy as well as unrepresented numbers at the firehouse level. Maybe you can shed some light on this ( I think this also may have come to reflect negatively on Guiliani and his record w/people of color- particularly the heavy hand of the police in dealing with non-white crime).

I think the statue should reflect historical fact btw (even if some of those facts point to institutionalized racism should that in fact be the history- i.e. lower hiring quotas for blacks in the NYFD)
The question is fair enough and depending on where you get your news I can certainly see where that perception might be made. The truth is that the Guliani administration changed NY for the better in ways the media don't want you to know about. Guliani got tough on the unions. Police, fire, city services, etc none were spared. Cops were taken off of desk jobs and put on the street. ALL criminals were treated more harshly, I don't have a problem with that. City services (rubbish, roads etc) Unions were made to work when it was best for the city. Road construction at night rather than rush hour etc.
If anything a reverse effect of the NYPD changes happend in the NYFD. Many older chiefs were sent to administrative positions freeing up command/control positions for younger firefighters.
The NYFD has been, and to some degree still is a family affair. Which is why you have brothers and fathers and sons in the same firehouse. Nobody will deny that. But what is not known by most is that unlike many large organizations public or otherwise, the NYFD advancement system is based on two things, test scores and merit. Nothing else. I surfed with many NYFD firefighters (three of whom died on 9/11) one of which was a black battalion chief, all of them had or did work with or for firefighters who were Puerto-Rican, black, Irish, Itallian you name it.

The bottom line is that the statue if erected should show the faces of the men who raised the flag. Would we change the statue of the Iwo-Jima/Mt Suribachi flag raising that it so closely resembles? No.
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Consider for a moment the Sacagawea dollar coin. The final image selected gave her a more European look than was historically correct. Objections by native American tribes were dismissed because the government wanted a coin would be more palatable for a broader group of Americans. Didn’t hear too many cries for historical accuracy over that…. :rolleyes:

Glad to hear that somebody is finally standing up for the white man.;)
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by Spud
Consider for a moment the Sacagawea dollar coin. The final image selected gave her a more European look than was historically correct. Objections by native American tribes were dismissed because the government wanted a coin would be more palatable for a broader group of Americans. Didn’t hear too many cries for historical accuracy over that…. :rolleyes:

Glad to hear that somebody is finally standing up for the white man.;)
Well if anyone had asked me what I thought about Sacagewea (though I don't recall ever thinking about her, was she hot?) I would have said make it look like her.
Doing something stupid in the past does not justify continueing to do so.

BTW, w/o a photograph how would we know what she actually looked like?
 
I don't have a problem with political correctness, really, UNTIL it overrides historical accuracy. I'm all for building a monument, but I'd rather keep it accurate and keep the original faces on there. Anyone who has a decent amount of common sense realizes that by keeping the faces of the actual people on there, the creators of the memorial are in no way trying to imply that only the races of the people in the memorial contributed to the 9/11 efforts, and no others assisted. I know that even though I'm white, if there happened to be 3 African Americans (or Latin Americans, or what have you) that hoisted the flag, I'd be just as proud of it, because it would be accurate AND would still be a tribute to the pulling together of America in the post 9/11 world.
 

Will_Jekyll

CUSTOM Chimp
Aug 10, 2001
98
0
Superior,CO
Originally posted by Damn True



The bottom line is that the statue if erected should show the faces of the men who raised the flag. Would we change the statue of the Iwo-Jima/Mt Suribachi flag raising that it so closely resembles? No.
Actually the Iwo-Jima flag memorial isn't historically correct either. The original was a much smaller flag and didn't take that many men to raise. A photographer that got to the peak well after the first troops called for a bigger flag and had several men raise it will he took the shot.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by Will_Jekyll


Actually the Iwo-Jima flag memorial isn't historically correct either. The original was a much smaller flag and didn't take that many men to raise. A photographer that got to the peak well after the first troops called for a bigger flag and had several men raise it will he took the shot.
:thumb: Thats the America I know and love! Without the edit button where would we be?
 

Will_Jekyll

CUSTOM Chimp
Aug 10, 2001
98
0
Superior,CO
Originally posted by Damn True
Doing something stupid in the past does not justify continueing to do so.
I didn't mean that it does. I'm all for leaving it the way it was. I just thought I'd point out how allot of our symbols of history are false.
 

Will_Jekyll

CUSTOM Chimp
Aug 10, 2001
98
0
Superior,CO
If they were going to be PC wouldn't the memorial have to have 20 some different people raising the flag just to make sure everyone is included? Who decides which minority makes the cut?
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,031
7,549
Originally posted by Will_Jekyll
If they were going to be PC wouldn't the memorial have to have 20 some different people raising the flag just to make sure everyone is included? Who decides which minority makes the cut?
Us Asians don't complain. Wait, I just did. Dang, caught in my lie. :D
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by Will_Jekyll


I didn't mean that it does. I'm all for leaving it the way it was. I just thought I'd point out how allot of our symbols of history are false.
:thumb: For hitting the nail square on the head! :D

Changing the the memorial might be PC but it would not be a truthful and accurate representation of reality.
 

mikec918

Chimp
Aug 22, 2001
89
0
Virginia
Originally posted by Will_Jekyll


I didn't mean that it does. I'm all for leaving it the way it was. I just thought I'd point out how allot of our symbols of history are false.

I think if the Iwo Jima Monument was PC you'd have Army, Navy and Airforces, guys there with the Marines. Just so no service felt hurt or leftout.


Oh and of course a few WAVES and WACS