[Transcend]

Well - but how long time does he has to ride the same frame ? The tear and wear from the private customer will be stretched over a much longer period - and then we will see what can hold up - and especially what can not...

In case you hadn't noticed, honda has a history of building vehicles that take abuse under common consumers. It will be just fine, don't you think they put a litle of their billion dollar reasearch facilities to work on this one?

Also - from what I know, Greg is on the same bike all year (not 100% sure, but what I understand)...and he puts it through a TON more abuse then you or I would in that timeframe.

 

[H8R]

My question:

When is Honda coming out with a team of robots to ride these bikes in DH races?

 

[humprabbit]

I only said the number of 250 as a ball park figure.

I have no idea TBH.

Just seeing what honda have done before with limited edition style releases it would not be surprising if the quantity PER YEAR is on the low end.

But it could be the complete opposite, sorry if what i put seemed misleading.

 

[surfinguru]

Wow! My Fly is starting to get long in the tooth and I've been pondering what to get next. If the price is even close to being resonable, I'm all over that.....sweet, sweet looking bike.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

It looks like a very nice bike indeed - but kind of fragile....but ok....pure race.

ARe you gonna put your Mtn-8 and 24x3.0's on the Honda?

 

[Transcend]

ARe you gonna put your Mtn-8 and 24x3.0's on the Honda?

:devil:

 

[Ian Collins]

down fraser, read his sig...he's an AVY fanatic...if it isn't burly, burly...he won't like it.

it's all good...it is burly burly....the rear shock is showa....therefore, i'm sure it uses showa parts just like avalanche.....i'm sure the rear shock feels very similar to avalanche

 

[Ian Collins]

I know the bike is hovering an inch or two off of the ground, but that bottom bracket looks really high....really high.....

 

[seismic]

ARe you gonna put your Mtn-8 and 24x3.0's on the Honda?

Of course :dancing:

 

[DHS]

can i put a avy on it front and rear?

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

If that bike is priced reasonably (sub 4000) then I would definitely go for it. If Honda goes about this right, they could sell a whole lot of those bikes very quickly.

 

[CreeP]

I agree, they also have some crazy partnerships setup, so it may be possible to get really nice stuff on this bike at a budget price.

I think we may be about to witness the beginning of the sane pricing spectrum for the gravity world. There is no reason besides lack of volume that a DH bike should cost more then a friggin' motorcycle. Honda is the only one who can able change that (in my opinion) at this point due to their manufacturing abilities.

oh also wheelie: when i heard initial rumours last year, it was for 2000-3000 frames. That of course is ridiculously high, but I am sure they will flood their dealers, and do many more then 250 bikes. Besides, they already have the tooling ready from their prototype bikes..why waste it? Better to produce 250 of something when the tooling is already done, and help pay off setup, then to do nothing at all.

Your theory that costs will come down because honda enters the market is proposterous, like you said no body has anywhere near the capabilities and therefore nobody can compete with them which means prices won't come down due to competition.

 

[neversummersnow]

The above post makes absolutly no sense.

If I introduce a computer that is 50 percent less than any other computer like it on the market, all my competitors will have to either

A) Drop their price to compete
B) Innovate some feature to make it worth the price
C) Shut their doors and join me.

 

[thesacrifice]

do we get a discount if we currently own an accord? give me give me

 

[atrokz]

Fraiser,

In order for DH bikes to dip well below their motorized brothers, the production volumes would have to multiply exponentialy. Not going to happen.

Not to mention stock motorbikes come with crude, cheaply cast parts and bad suspension. Race worthy bikes (motorized) cost much more than top of the line DH bikes (anyone here can have a pro level bike for under 7k). Even saying that, remember that pushbikes use aerospace grade materials that cost more than most steels, use high end manufacuring techniques (cold forging, machining, etc), and are designed by engineers (not industrial designers) even when the production volume is low. This all translates into the reason why our bikes cost the way they do. Supply vs Demand.

Not to say the Honda won't cost less than first rumored, but don't expect a civic type price.

 

[neversummersnow]

To answer the question as to "why is Honda in the ballgame" and "this is going to make them peanuts by comparison" I ask you this.

What is currently one of the most rapidly "in demand" commodity (sp?) in the world? OIL. What is going to run out in the next 30-100 years? OIL. What do enviromentalist think of motorsports? What did the latest Aspen/Snowmass snowfall survey predict? (50 years almost all CO ski resorts will be forced to shut down due to lack of snowfall/rising temps)

My point is Honda knows that way down the road DH may actually pick up in popularity due to the enviromental issues associated with dirt bikes/motorsports, the scarcity of oil in the future and the rising temps/changing climate at many of the worlds ski resorts. They want to be the first big player in the game so they'll be able to beat the compitition 20 years from now just based on experience.

As a side effect we get a kick ass product at a kick ass price RIGHT NOW. (or soon)

 

[DVNT]

What is currently one of the most rapidly "in demand" commodity (sp?) in the world? OIL. What is going to run out in the next 30-100 years? OIL. What do enviromentalist think of motorsports? What did the latest Aspen/Snowmass snowfall survey predict? (50 years almost all CO ski resorts will be forced to shut down due to lack of snowfall/rising temps)

Are you serious?

That's the mother of all right wing conspiracy theories

Maybe it's as simple as some VP's kid get's a chubby over riding DH.

 

[seismic]

can i put a avy on it front and rear?

Of course you can It will probably work better than what is on it for the customers anyway :love: :nuts:

 

[neversummersnow]

You're forgetting that BECAUSE of all the dirtbike, car, lawn mower etc volume that Honda does allows them to produce fewer DH bikes at far cheaper prices than any DHer out there. It's the same company we're talking about here! They already HAVE the manufacturing ability, the costs are already sunk. The engineers are already employeed, so say now their dirtbike program has 35 engineers instead of 40. (and those 5 are contributing using what they've learned from mtb)

It's not starting from scratch like you're assuming...the manufacturing processes are already there, and the processes are far more efficient, effective and cheaper than any currently employeed by the bike industry.

Fraiser,

In order for DH bikes to dip well below their motorized brothers, the production volumes would have to multiply exponentialy. Not going to happen.

Not to mention stock motorbikes come with crude, cheaply cast parts and bad suspension. Race worthy bikes (motorized) cost much more than top of the line DH bikes (anyone here can have a pro level bike for under 7k). Even saying that, remember that pushbikes use aerospace grade materials that cost more than most steels, use high end manufacuring techniques (cold forging, machining, etc), and are designed by engineers (not industrial designers) even when the production volume is low. This all translates into the reason why our bikes cost the way they do. Supply vs Demand.

Not to say the Honda won't cost less than first rumored, but don't expect a civic type price.

 

[mech]

If Honda does anything at all it does it right from the start. No fooling around and no junk.
To compare a new CRF450 Motocross bike will go between $6000 - $6500 at most. And this bike has no junk on it, stock suspension is awesome, motor is more than powerfull enough for 90% of all people. Ready to ride or race straight out of the crate.
If they will produce a dh bike in large enough numbers it could go below $ 4000,- I know a gearbox wil be a lot cheaper than a regular drivetrain with chainguide.

 

[neversummersnow]

Are you serious?

That's the mother of all right wing conspiracy theories

Maybe it's as simple as some VP's kid get's a chubby over riding DH.

Doubtfull, Asian companies run a bit differently than US companies.

Oil IS a resource, and the demand for it now is 10 times what it was 25 years ago. India and China both are growing faster than you'de care to believe.

2 Stroke dirtbikes are done with, 20 years from now trail riding a 4 stroke may also be a thing of the past. .

The snowfall/rising temps thing may or may not be true. The report was accurate, but the sample size (last 80 years) may not be long enough to report "true" findings.

Open your eyes, the world is changing

 

[xy9ine]

My point is Honda knows that way down the road DH may actually pick up in popularity due to the enviromental issues associated with dirt bikes/motorsports, the scarcity of oil in the future and the rising temps/changing climate at many of the worlds ski resorts. They want to be the first big player in the game so they'll be able to beat the compitition 20 years from now just based on experience.

neat idea - i'd like to think thats their motivation. makes ya wonder what kind of long-term vision a major corporation like honda has...

 

[atrokz]

You're forgetting that BECAUSE of all the dirtbike, car, lawn mower etc volume that Honda does allows them to produce fewer DH bikes at far cheaper prices than any DHer out there. It's the same company we're talking about here! They already HAVE the manufacturing ability, the costs are already sunk. The engineers are already employeed, so say now their dirtbike program has 35 engineers instead of 40. (and those 5 are contributing using what they've learned from mtb)

It's not starting from scratch like you're assuming...the manufacturing processes are already there, and the processes are far more efficient, effective and cheaper than any currently employeed by the bike industry.

Do you know how much tooling costs? even for Honda? (I do)

Beleive me, if it's a production run of whats being said here (200-2000) the costs will be high. Remeber, tens of thousands of Honda motorbikes, weedwackers and various other things get sold. Not so for DH bikes like this. Regardless of how many people and blah blah, they still have to pay such people, and still have to pay for develpoment.

But alas, time will tell who's right (who knows, I could be wrong. wouldn't be the first time). Untill then, let the speculation from the uneducated continue.

 

[Supa8]

I would imagine you could replace the internal gearing with a battery system for two hours of fun. Seeding the market with a DH version then an electric MX bike could follow. How cool would be to have a DH rig you could swap out for a battery system for a day at the track..... X-file stuff I know but you never know.

 

[atrokz]

You never know..........

 

[DVNT]

You never know..........

Now that's just plain silly, you'd never be able to hit anything with the fork in that position.

 

[WheelieMan]

To answer the question as to "why is Honda in the ballgame" and "this is going to make them peanuts by comparison" I ask you this.

What is currently one of the most rapidly "in demand" commodity (sp?) in the world? OIL. What is going to run out in the next 30-100 years? OIL. What do enviromentalist think of motorsports? What did the latest Aspen/Snowmass snowfall survey predict? (50 years almost all CO ski resorts will be forced to shut down due to lack of snowfall/rising temps)

My point is Honda knows that way down the road DH may actually pick up in popularity due to the enviromental issues associated with dirt bikes/motorsports, the scarcity of oil in the future and the rising temps/changing climate at many of the worlds ski resorts. They want to be the first big player in the game so they'll be able to beat the compitition 20 years from now just based on experience.

As a side effect we get a kick ass product at a kick ass price RIGHT NOW. (or soon)

Haha, that's one of the funniest theories i've ever heard! If the world does indeed "run out of oil" in 30-100 years, any kind of recreation/sporting activity that involves driving anywhere will be done.

There will probably be a huge demand for this bike, therefore the price will also be very high.

 

[trailhacker]

Years ago MTB action did a story on a company making electric dirtbikes and they said they were a blast to ride. IIRC they were almost essentially DH bikes but much bigger. But this was a few years ago.
It would be cool if this was an exercise for them to build the foundation of a future electric MXer.

I would imagine you could replace the internal gearing with a battery system for two hours of fun. Seeding the market with a DH version then an electric MX bike could follow. How cool would be to have a DH rig you could swap out for a battery system for a day at the track..... X-file stuff I know but you never know.

 

[partsbara]

If Honda does anything at all it does it right from the start. No fooling around and no junk.
To compare a new CRF450 Motocross bike will go between $6000 - $6500 at most. And this bike has no junk on it, stock suspension is awesome, motor is more than powerfull enough for 90% of all people. Ready to ride or race straight out of the crate.
If they will produce a dh bike in large enough numbers it could go below $ 4000,- I know a gearbox wil be a lot cheaper than a regular drivetrain with chainguide.

the first 2/3 of your post is on the money...

too many e speculator within a 545236 mile radius...

yeah, valve bouncer... check prices on this bike if ya don t mind...

partsbara

 

[sayndesyn]

Oil is running low no doubt. Why else would companies spend millions to move operations to an area that will be dry in 6 months.... Gas prices will continue to rise until we are all riding bicycles, and then the economy will completly fall, and Mad Max bicycle gangs will roam the streets while there venison dries on fallen superhighways... Can't friggen wait...

 

[zedro]

Haha, that's one of the funniest theories i've ever heard! If the world does indeed "run out of oil" in 30-100 years, any kind of recreation/sporting activity that involves driving anywhere will be done.

i think he watched too many Mad Max movies......

 

[partsbara]

Oil is running low no doubt. Why else would companies spend millions to move operations to an area that will be dry in 6 months.... Gas prices will continue to rise until we are all riding bicycles, and then the economy will completly fall, and Mad Max bicycle gangs will roam the streets while there venison dries on fallen superhighways... Can't friggen wait...

ahahahahahahahaaahahahaa.. best post in 3 pages !!!!!

R O A D W A R R I O R BIATCH

 

[WheelieMan]

Oil is running low no doubt. Why else would companies spend millions to move operations to an area that will be dry in 6 months.... Gas prices will continue to rise until we are all riding bicycles, and then the economy will completly fall, and Mad Max bicycle gangs will roam the streets while there venison dries on fallen superhighways... Can't friggen wait...

Hey, I think I just found a cure for our country's "obesity problem".

 

[partsbara]

totally off topic... yeah, oil... 50 years people... but i ll be DEAD so what do i care.....

 

[narlus]

totally off topic... yeah, oil... 50 years people... but i ll be DEAD so what do i care.....

i think gwb follows the same logic.

parts, start a family and yr perspective may change.

 

[OGRipper]

The oil theory is interesting but might be giving Honda too much credit.

As for the cost, a company as big as Honda will no doubt sell these bikes at a loss when entering the market. It's called a loss leader, most of you know what that is. It's possible that they are just winging it but much more likely that they have a longe-range plan pursuant to which they don't expect to see profits or break even for a long time. So they can have a target MSRP lower than actual unit cost, especially to start when the unit cost is higher.

It's pretty cool but I'm not as fired up about it as some people, and I don't really understand all the excitement. Unless there really is a revolutionary drivetrain in there (not "just" a B-1/hayes derailleur in a box, which I admit is pretty cool), it looks like a fancy package around a single pivot with potentially good suspension and brakes, but nobody really knows. Lower cost of a complete bike is cool but most of us want custom builds anyway. Yeah it's getting results but those guys could rip on one of Sanjay's hoopty jump bikes...

But if any Honda guys are listening and want to change my mind, drop me a PM and I'll let you know where to ship it.

 

[bizutch]

You guys are the biggest bunch of e-specs ever. Everybody keeps talking about Honda's manufacturing capabilities...you're missing something. They aren't manufacturing it. They're ordering it all.
Frames - ordered from Kinesis or whatever Asian mass builder gets the contract
Suspension - ordered from Showa, Kawa, Kayaba, Kablahblah...
Components - ordered from Easton, Shimano, Bibbinoni....

What particular piece of this bike do you think is so technologicly advanced and beyond the manufacturing capacity of current vendors....is Honda gonna waste their time to set up in house? NONE OF IT. It is all just pieces they design....then order.

There is one thing about this bike that is OEM and that is the movement and placement of the tranny...and they probably won't even set up any assembly line to put that together...it will get outsourced too. Hell, I'd about be willing to bet that before that thing gets packed in a box, it might not even pass through a single facility that has the Honda logo so much as on the building.

Honda just organizes all the madness of the pieces better than everybody else in the most cost effective, efficient, quality manner...

OH...and they put the little "wingie" sticker logo on it...that's worth like $5.00 minimum.

 

[neversummersnow]

That's a good point Bizutch. I didn't realize they were outsourcing so much of it.

 

[WheelieMan]

You guys are the biggest bunch of e-specs ever. Everybody keeps talking about Honda's manufacturing capabilities...you're missing something. They aren't manufacturing it. They're ordering it all.
Frames - ordered from Kinesis or whatever Asian mass builder gets the contract
Suspension - ordered from Showa, Kawa, Kayaba, Kablahblah...
Components - ordered from Easton, Shimano, Bibbinoni....

What particular piece of this bike do you think is so technologicly advanced and beyond the manufacturing capacity of current vendors....is Honda gonna waste their time to set up in house? NONE OF IT. It is all just pieces they design....then order.

There is one thing about this bike that is OEM and that is the movement and placement of the tranny...and they probably won't even set up any assembly line to put that together...it will get outsourced too. Hell, I'd about be willing to bet that before that thing gets packed in a box, it might not even pass through a single facility that has the Honda logo so much as on the building.

Honda just organizes all the madness of the pieces better than everybody else in the most cost effective, efficient, quality manner...

OH...and they put the little "wingie" sticker logo on it...that's worth like $5.00 minimum.

You know for a fact that Honda is not producing the frame or the gearbox?

 

[partsbara]

i think gwb follows the same logic.

parts, start a family and yr perspective may change.

logic... where can i buy it ??? i d like to send some to the 'president'...

kids... nah... thanks, but no thanks tim, my wife and i LOVE our spare time / freedom...

speaking of kids... i m going to get a t shirt made to wear on ramstein base....

'I HATE YOUR CHILDREN'

yeah... i know... i m evil