[Kntr]

I don't care what any of you e-spec'g, e-riding, e-spewing, e-dolts have to say.....

I just need to know where the closest Honda dealer is. I'm willing to pay up to $14,499 :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:


:evil:

Oh crap, the price is $15,000. You dont have enough money. Ill loan you a $1 if I can take it for one run.

 

[CBJ]

whats the difference in ride between the sunday and 222 they look interesting but are very rare north of the border i have yet to see one in person

Main difference for me is that I am able to carry more speed through the rocks which is what almost all of the trails in my area consist of. Especially when I tried to pedal the 222 it stiffened up the rear suspension it was difficult to pick up speed. The Sunday is on the other hand a great pedaling bike in all conditions. Then I also like that the rear wheel moves more up and down in stead towards me which helps control when I hit something I had not expected. Last I kept breaking derailleurs I don't know if its the chain streach but its not happening with the Sunday.

 

[Spokompton]

Won't that thing brake squat like a mofo?

Why no floating disc?

Looks heavy, anyone know the weight?

 

[AR_]

Won't that thing brake squat like a mofo?

Why no floating disc?

Looks heavy, anyone know the weight?

Oh you've gone and done it now..

 

[Repack]

Oh you've gone and done it now..

It was purpose-built to win World Cups/Championships by one of the worlds best riders. None of those question apply.

 

[Winger]

i was reading about that bike in Croatian T3 magazine...

it costs 45,000 EUROS i dont know how much is it in $

but if you wanna order it you must order directly from HONDA factory and you must talk with director of Honda...




too much money for that bike, i would perfere nicolai or somethging like that

a nicolai...are you some sort of retarded know nothing ass gobler???? you are one retarded person that give mountainbiking a bad name....

 

[MikeD]

a nicolai...are you some sort of retarded know nothing ass gobler???? you are one retarded person that give mountainbiking a bad name....

Unlike you...

 

[binary visions]

a nicolai...are you some sort of retarded know nothing ass gobler???? you are one retarded person that give mountainbiking a bad name....

Please die.

Thanks.

 

[Slacker]

Oh crap, the price is $15,000. You dont have enough money. Ill loan you a $1 if I can take it for one run.

Make that $501 and you got a deal

 

[WheelieMan]

Sure it will, a linkage system can have the same advantages on a single speed as it can on a multi speed bike. dw-link does.

dw

I believe he is talking about chaingrowth or the lack thereof on the Honda.

 

[S.G.D]

Oh you've gone and done it now..

hahahhahahhaahha

 

[Repack]

I believe he is talking about chaingrowth or the lack thereof on the Honda.

There is chain growth on the Honda and it is dealt with *surprise* the same way as a motorcycle. The bottom/non-tensioned part of the chain runs over a polyurathane (sp?) block. As the suspension compresses the chain is lifted off of the block, letting the slack out. But remember that some chain growth is needed for any sort of mechanical pedaling platform.

 

[WheelieMan]

There is chain growth on the Honda and it is dealt with *surprise* the same way as a motorcycle. The bottom/non-tensioned part of the chain runs over a polyurathane (sp?) block. As the suspension compresses the chain is lifted off of the block, letting the slack out. But remember that some chain growth is needed for any sort of mechanical pedaling platform.

I have never looked at the Honda long enough to determine if the chaingrowth would even be noticeable.

Using chaingrowth as a pedaling "platform" is not necessarily an efficient way to design a bike.

 

[Repack]

I have never looked at the Honda long enough to determine if the chaingrowth would even be noticeable.

Using chaingrowth as a pedaling "platform" is not necessarily an efficient way to design a bike.

FSR, VPP and any other design meant to pedal well use chain tension in some way to limit bob. Maybe platform wasn't the best word.

 

[ohio]

Using chaingrowth as a pedaling "platform" is not necessarily an efficient way to design a bike.

mm-hhmmm?

And how would you suggest designing a bike?




I would argue that using chaingrowth (or chain tension interactions to be more precise) to achieve good pedalling performance is one of the best ways, as it is inherently linked to the act of pedalling... unlike, say, a platform style shock that has high levels of low-speed compression damping at all times, whether you need it or not.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

mm-hhmmm?

And how would you suggest designing a bike?




I would argue that using chaingrowth (or chain tension interactions to be more precise) to achieve good pedalling performance is one of the best ways, as it is inherently linked to the act of pedalling... unlike, say, a platform style shock that has high levels of low-speed compression damping at all times, whether you need it or not.

How about using a high pivot with a chain idler (concentric or close to) a la BB7/Inedible? Little or no chain growth and you can still get however much anti-squat you need simply through driving force on the axle plus whatever (presumably relatively minor) tangential components of the chain tension on the axle. Although maybe you couldn't get the anti-squat curve you'd want if you were being super picky about pedalling performance in different parts of the travel.

 

[ohio]

How about using a high pivot with a chain idler (concentric or close to) a la BB7/Inedible?

You're still using chain growth to provide the pedalling performance you want . I want to know what WheelieMan's magic solution is.

Basically what I'm getting at is: it's never REALLY chain GROWTH that you're using... it's just the chain tension interaction... and you don't need growth to have that (a bike with no chain growth STILL has chain tension interactions). So by making the claim that one doesn't see chain growth as an effective way to provide a pedalling platform, one is demonstrating that they don't understand bicycle suspension on a couple of levels, and is therefore making an outrageous claim. An outrageous claim that I'm choosing to call out.

 

[MikeD]

An outrageous claim that I'm choosing to call out.

High noon.
Protractors.

 

[Repack]

You're still using chain growth to provide the pedalling performance you want . I want to know what WheelieMan's magic solution is.

Basically what I'm getting at is: it's never REALLY chain GROWTH that you're using... it's just the chain tension interaction... and you don't need growth to have that (a bike with no chain growth STILL has chain tension interactions). So by making the claim that one doesn't see chain growth as an effective way to provide a pedalling platform, one is demonstrating that they don't understand bicycle suspension on a couple of levels, and is therefore making an outrageous claim. An outrageous claim that I'm choosing to call out.

Yup, the Holy Grail of suspension is one where the tensions form the chain is cnaceling out rider input but is not so strong that it limits the suspensions ability to soak up bumps.

 

[Spokompton]

It was purpose-built to win World Cups/Championships by one of the worlds best riders. None of those question apply.

Is brake squat a good thing for DH, sorry I'm not very smarts. It's me noggen!

Seems like a lot of high single pivots I see have floating brakes. Just wondering.

That thing must pedal like a dream through nasty terrain.

 

[Repack]

Is brake squat a good thing for DH, sorry I'm not very smarts. It's me noggen!

Seems like a lot of high single pivots I see have floating brakes. Just wondering.

That thing must pedal like a dream through nasty terrain.

You need to realize that what might be a big deal for us mortals may not be a concern for pros, especially for someone like Minaar. Many feel that the added weight is not worth the benefit of smoother braking.

 

[Inclag]

Damn, I get back from Alaska and this is what I miss out on

I've noticed in this thread that people keep bringing up how other companies market different suspension linkages. Maybe everyone needs to take a step back and look at the job that Honda has done marketing this bike and are missing the big picture.

What Honda is bringing to the table is a gear-box and simply that. I applaud them since they are going to be the first to get it done right and it is definately a forward step for the entire downhill community and for mountain biking in general.

They are not introducing groundbreaking suspension. Names like Seekins, Ohlins, Bossard, and hell even Fox are in that game. It doesn't hurt if Kayaba or Showa jump into the mix, but there isn't going to be a suspension revelation.

As far as the frame, like a few people have said there are numerous manufacturers over seas that could build that frame cost effectively, and all the parts on the bike are the same as any other.

What I'm most interested in is if they are going to produce this bike in different sizes and if it does will it be in the size and have the geometry that feels comfortable in my 6'3" lanky ass hands.

 

[Transcend]

You need to realize that what might be a big deal for us mortals may not be a concern for pros, especially for someone like Minaar. Many feel that the added weight is not worth the benefit of smoother braking.

That and minaar isn't pedaling/braking through the nasty stuff, he is jumping over it.

 

[WheelieMan]

You're still using chain growth to provide the pedalling performance you want . I want to know what WheelieMan's magic solution is.

Basically what I'm getting at is: it's never REALLY chain GROWTH that you're using... it's just the chain tension interaction... and you don't need growth to have that (a bike with no chain growth STILL has chain tension interactions). So by making the claim that one doesn't see chain growth as an effective way to provide a pedalling platform, one is demonstrating that they don't understand bicycle suspension on a couple of levels, and is therefore making an outrageous claim. An outrageous claim that I'm choosing to call out.

What kind of "chain tension interactions" are you talking about?

 

[Percy]

High noon.
Protractors.

Surely a compass would be more effective?

 

[ohio]

What kind of "chain tension interactions" are you talking about?

Chain tension cause either compression or extension of the damper. That is, a moment created by the force the chain exerts on the rear cog about the (virtual) pivot point of the rear axle.

(Also, don't forget this couples with the reactive force of the contact patch of the tire and the ground...)

 

[Repack]

What kind of "chain tension interactions" are you talking about?

When you pedal, the downward movement of you body is trying to compress the suspension. As the suspension compresses, unless the pivot is located at the exact point where the chain leaves the chainring, chain tension is trying to pull the wheel back down. Rotec's are about the worst pedaling bike I have ridden b/c of this. The forward crank arm and swingarm end up acting like a tetor-totter. A good portion of your pedal stroke is wasted compressing the suspension. On the opposite end of the spectrum is a bike with a very high pivot and nothing done to compensate for it. The original Trek DH was like that. The bike will pedal like crap b/c tension on the chain while pedaling will fight your pedaling effort. If it is a single pivot w/ the pivot near the bb than the chain tension is trying to compress the suspension. Where low pivotas really fight you is when they are rebounding.
So, what you are left with is the balancing act I mentioned before. If a bike truely has no input from the chain on the suspension than it will pedal like crap b/c your body movement (bob) will not be compensated for. I think that it is easiest to see on an FSR. The horst link causes the chainstay length to grow slightly as the suspension compresses. It is just enough to cancel out a significant amount of bob (I am not going to say that any desogn is perfect). The axle path of an FSR is like a "J" so you get the most input in the initial part of the stroke which makes sens when you consider that greater shock compression implies rougher terrain and less pedaling. VPP is a little different in that it is trying to hold the wheel in a specific spot.

 

[WheelieMan]

Chain tension cause either compression or extension of the damper. That is, a moment created by the force the chain exerts on the rear cog about the (virtual) pivot point of the rear axle.

(Also, don't forget this couples with the reactive force of the contact patch of the tire and the ground...)

Hmm, I'm not sure if I would sacrifice pivot location in order to have a suspension that does not extend or compress under acceleration.

 

[ohio]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I would sacrifice pivot location in order to have a suspension that does not extend or compress under acceleration.

Two things:
- Come back when you are sure
- I'm sorry I'm such an ornery bastard right now. Work is killin' me and I'm itching for a fight. I shoulda jacked this drunk guy at a pool hall when I had the chance.

And MikeD, watch yourself. I know 15 ways to kill a man with a protractor... Don't even get me started on a compass or a slide rule.

 

[Repack]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I would sacrifice pivot location in order to have a suspension that does not extend or compress under acceleration.

You are not. Its about BALANCE.

Yup, the Holy Grail of suspension is one where tension form the chain is canceling out rider input but is not so strong that it limits the suspensions ability to soak up bumps.

 

[WheelieMan]

You are not. Its about BALANCE.

Elaborate...

 

[Repack]

Elaborate...

What the hell do you think we have been trying to explain to you?????
Pivot location has everything to do with pedaling efficiency and little to do with anything else. High single pivots are an exception and are prefered by some DH frame builder because they do not allow hooking- when the ark of the wheel begins to move forward relitive to the bike.

 

[WheelieMan]

What the hell do you think we have been trying to explain to you??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Pivot location has everything to do with pedaling efficiency and little to do with anything else. High single pivots are an exception and are prefered by some DH frame builder because they do not allow hooking- when the ark of the wheel begins to move forward relitive to the bike.

Exactly, pivot location not only affects pedaling efficiency, but also bump absorption. There is no "ultimate pivot placement" that can provide both good acceleration/pedaling and good bump absorption.

 

[ohio]

Exactly, pivot location not only affects pedaling efficiency, but also bump absorption. There is no "ultimate pivot placement" that can provide both good acceleration/pedaling and good bump absorption.

Dude, so many mistakes in that statement, I don't know where to start. There's like, layers, and ****.

 

[WheelieMan]

Dude, so many mistakes in that statement, I don't know where to start. There's like, layers, and ****.

Hehehe, you are funny

 

[ohio]

Hehehe, you are funny

Okay, okay, I'll give you some hints:

1. To achieve what you are defining as perfect bump absorption you would have to have a horizontal axle path and infinitely long travel. So of course it's impossible to achieve "ultimate" anything.

2. No point in talking about pivot (singular) placement, when it doesn't exist on a 4-bar bike.

 

[Repack]

Dude, so many mistakes in that statement, I don't know where to start. There's like, layers, and ****.

I gave up. He is failing to realize that a pivot and be put anywhere (if talking only of single pivots) and still absorb bumps equally well. Well within reason of course. Bump eating is the duty of the shock. Everything else is optimising pedalng to what the designer feels is best. Look at short travel sp's and the pivot is near the middle ring b/c that is where the chain will be ost of the time. On longer travel bikes you see the pivot start to move forward to limit the change in wheelbase like on a Bullit vs an Orange 223. Bikes with high center pivots need something to compensate for the amount of chain growth (or whatever you want to call it) that they have. A Brooklyn or Trek Diesel could not function without the jackshaft/pully design.

I am going to try to not respond to this discussion anymore. I can't believe what a f'ing derailment this has been. People are probably sitting back and laughing at us.

 

[WheelieMan]

Okay, okay, I'll give you some hints:

1. To achieve what you are defining as perfect bump absorption you would have to have a horizontal axle path and infinitely long travel. So of course it's impossible to achieve "ultimate" anything.

2. No point in talking about pivot (singular) placement, when it doesn't exist on a 4-bar bike.

I never said "perfect" bump absorption... I am simply trying to imply that even designs with good acceleration and pedaling can leave alot to be desired in the wheelpath department. After having ridden an extremely high-pivot bike for a full season, I definitely think there are benefits.

I didn't know we were talking about 4-bars specifically, even if we were, the virtual pivot still counts as the "pivot placement".

 

[WheelieMan]

I gave up. He is failing to realize that a pivot and be put anywhere (if talking only of single pivots) and still absorb bumps equally well. Well within reason of course. Bump eating is the duty of the shock. Everything else is optimising pedalng to what the designer feels is best. Look at short travel sp's and the pivot is near the middle ring b/c that is where the chain will be ost of the time. On longer travel bikes you see the pivot start to move forward to limit the change in wheelbase like on a Bullit vs an Orange 223. Bikes with high center pivots need something to compensate for the amount of chain growth (or whatever you want to call it) that they have. A Brooklyn or Trek Diesel could not function without the jackshaft/pully design.

I am going to try to not respond to this discussion anymore. I can't believe what a f'ing derailment this has been. People are probably sitting back and laughing at us.

Umm, a low-pivot will not absorb square edge bumps as well as a high-pivot. Fact.

 

[binary visions]

I think that it is easiest to see on an FSR. The horst link causes the chainstay length to grow slightly as the suspension compresses. It is just enough to cancel out a significant amount of bob (I am not going to say that any desogn is perfect). The axle path of an FSR is like a "J" so you get the most input in the initial part of the stroke which makes sens when you consider that greater shock compression implies rougher terrain and less pedaling.

Hmm... I was under the impression that a Horst link behaves almost exactly like a low rearward single pivot, and that about the only advantage was that braking affected the suspension less.

The axle path in particular seems to be almost exactly like, say, a Turner DHR - just an arc around the pivot behind the BB.

Is that not true? This is totally off topic, of course, but I'm just clarifying my own knowledge