Quantcast

How long until we see Di2 on a DH bike?

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,045
21
We've seen Minnaar running 10-speed stuff now, and Shimano isn't shy about trying out new things in DH. How long until we see electric shifting on a DH bike?
 

Banshee Rider

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
1,456
10
The electronic road stuff isn't even worth it. Aside from the front derailleur, which was noticably faster, I just sort of shrugged my shoulders after riding it; followed by laughter when I saw the pricing.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,045
21
If you really think of it with an open mind, it could give some possibilities that are not there now. The Di2 road group is stupid expensive, but if you look at it from Honda RN01 standpoint where you just want to develop the best race bike possible it could be cool.

I like watching F1 cars where they have 300 million dollar budgets and will go to any extreme to find the fastest solution possible. What if the group could auto-upshift for the rider and then downshift as he brakes through a corner
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
16,146
1,108
01776
again - what's the point?
selling parts to rich DHers. I'll be looking to pick up some NOS 8-speed stuff. I rarely use all my gears while DHing, and I see little reason to keep narrow spacing, or go even narrower. Makes perfect sense for roadies, makes 0 for dirt riders.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
selling parts to rich DHers. I'll be looking to pick up some NOS 8-speed stuff. I rarely use all my gears while DHing, and I see little reason to keep narrow spacing, or go even narrower. Makes perfect sense for roadies, makes 0 for dirt riders.
Until DH becomes big enough for component companies to offer a true "DH" component group, we're always going to be just an off-shoot of XC or at best lumped in with the FR group. Think about it, a true DH group would be something along the lines of 5sp, 10-23t, short cassette spacing so that you could have a wider hub flange and get almost a symmetrical wheel build on a 135x10 spacing. Add in a short but bullet-proof derailleur, enough cable pull to ensure continuous shifting if your hanger gets tweaked, and make everything light and you're done.

Only problem is that all of that would be DH specific, and not even able to be translated into the FR market, let alone the XC or AM categories...
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,794
204
vancouver eastside
selling parts to rich DHers. I'll be looking to pick up some NOS 8-speed stuff. I rarely use all my gears while DHing, and I see little reason to keep narrow spacing, or go even narrower. Makes perfect sense for roadies, makes 0 for dirt riders.
yup.

i do, however see the merits of electronic shifting - light-touch shifters (a button on each side - one for upshift, one for down would be cool), w/ no cable stretch or contamination issues ever (esp. rad for we of wet climates). i'm sure they've got the tech to pull off something effective & bomber.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
16,146
1,108
01776
Well, Saint was a pretty good attempt to make a DH semi-specific groupo. It seems to me like they got everything right but the gearing. 9 speed is just too much of a stretch. I agree, a 5 cog set would be damn near perfect, with a big fat chain that can take a wreck or two, with the endurance to go through a few mud puddles. I love the concept of wider hubs, too. It's funny; nowadays we have the technology to do so much more, but 15 years ago there were so many other people machining custom cassettes and derailleurs and shifters even...now it's SRAM and shimano, with a splash of Suntour in the mix (campy for road). There's a hell of an opportunity for a startup.

As far as electric shifting, I agree, it could be implemented well, but high cost and forced obsolescence aren't encouraging. It's kind of like airlines- great in theory, but actual execution was somewhat lacking. I see the same thing in gearboxes...mucho potential, but you've got the germans' hyper-complicated design, or the geared hubs, which aren't necessarily ideal for frame mounted designs. It amazes me that shimano or sram haven't developed a DH IG hub.
 

monkeyfcuker

Monkey
May 26, 2008
903
2
UK, Carlisle
yup.

i do, however see the merits of electronic shifting - light-touch shifters (a button on each side - one for upshift, one for down would be cool), w/ no cable stretch or contamination issues ever (esp. rad for we of wet climates). i'm sure they've got the tech to pull off something effective & bomber.
This would be very cool, how many times have you wanted to go up to an easier gear and have fluffed the shift by not pressing it enough or to damn much, I do it all the time! 5 or 6 speed would also be the icing on the cake!
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
554
0
I Seriously cannot see a genuine point.
You need to get on the Pointless Bling Bandwagon. Electronic shifting is a good idea because it means more technology. Sheesh. Even a dummy like me can see that.

Personally, I can't wait until we have shifting powered by nuclear reactor. That will be BADASS.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,645
380
Warsaw :/
You need to get on the Pointless Bling Bandwagon. Electronic shifting is a good idea because it means more technology. Sheesh. Even a dummy like me can see that.

Personally, I can't wait until we have shifting powered by nuclear reactor. That will be BADASS.
Moar technology and all the new gimmicks have one big problem. They are VERY easy to break. Firstly they would need it shock resistant(I doubt the system could survive even crashless riding for longer time) and at least a bit hit resistant. Also repairing it on your own would probably be hard (even though I study this damn electro thingys ;) )
 

Cabdoctor

Monkey
Mar 25, 2008
193
0
Sacramento
Personally what I would like to see Sram do is make a "RED" type cassette that's only 8 spd. I certainly would buy one. Now there is the fact that the red cassettes don't shed mud well, they soon found this out in the first cyclocross season Sram Red competited in. But with that being said, many of us ride in very dry climates where this is not an issue.
 

yuroshek

Turbo Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
2,438
0
Arizona!
I wouldnt be surprised if we saw some of the top shimano WC racers using the MTB Di2 on their bikes within the next year or so.

edit:

http://thesebrokenpaths.blogspot.com/2010/05/electronic-shifting-on-downhill-bike-oh.html#more







then install one of these...


Electric shift is not to far away, Campy is coming out with theirs pretty shortly, its going to be very expensive. But I feel Shimano will come down in their price a little bit and try to blow Campy out with theirs. If I was offered to run a MTB Di2 I would run it in an instant.
 
Last edited:

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,645
380
Warsaw :/
I wouldnt be surprised if we saw some of the top shimano WC racers using the MTB Di2 on their bikes within the next year or so.

edit:

http://thesebrokenpaths.blogspot.com/2010/05/electronic-shifting-on-downhill-bike-oh.html#more







then install one of these...


Electric shift is not to far away, Campy is coming out with theirs pretty shortly, its going to be very expensive. But I feel Shimano will come down in their price a little bit and try to blow Campy out with theirs. If I was offered to run a MTB Di2 I would run it in an instant.
For the cost lets say x.9/xt if they were low profile (ie. like sram rival ) I would gladly use them. Anything more would be a big no no for something as disposable (tore of my rival this year - just when I thought my days of insta killing derails are over)
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,045
21
I like that this new shifter splits to both sides of the bar. Also, Ultegra Di2 is coming, so price is coming down.
 

eatmyshorts

Monkey
Jun 18, 2010
110
0
South OZ
One feature that has been missed here is that the Di2 actually has a fail safe built into it.. If the der if forced to move from an outside force - like falling over - or hitting a rock, it is allows to move and then will reset again.. sparing the internals and the der itself..

This single feature built into a saint type der may create a der that is even more robust...

There are particular shared design features in the top end shimano groupsets that may indicate the direction... ;)
 

pillete

Monkey
Mar 25, 2005
111
0
After seeing the article posted above I thought about doing the conversion for my downhill bike, however when I looked at the prices, $1200 for the derailleur, about $200 for the wiring, I didn't even looked into the price of the shifter and battery, I decided it was not worth it.
Specially since replacing the derailleur will cost as much as a high end fork.

Also after spending sometime testing it on a customer's bike, I can say that the real beauty of the system lies in the front derraileur. The rear is not much better than mechanical DuraAce system.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,923
10
Your face.
You guys go right ahead and smash a $1200 deraileur off a rock. Have fun.

Me, I'd use the money for a gym membership, maybe a training camp, trip to whistler...you know, things that would actually make a difference. ;)
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,567
3
CT
It amazes me that shimano or sram haven't developed a DH IG hub.
There is no money in that.
A well executed IG setup would be darn near bulletproof - no derailleur/cassette sales anymore.

I believe they can do it, but I highly doubt they will, not until someone else can introduce something into the market to truly make the derailleur obsolete.
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,567
3
CT
You guys go right ahead and smash a $1200 deraileur off a rock. Have fun.

Me, I'd use the money for a gym membership, maybe a training camp, trip to whistler...you know, things that would actually make a difference. ;)
Agreed.
Derailleurs here in AZ last 4 runs, if you are lucky. But we shuttle on rock, over and over.
 

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
I personally can't wait for parts to get more expensive, more complex, and have batteries. I love batteries, especially on bikes. Just wait until we get battery powered brakes! How great will that be? Super great, that's how great. It's an under-appreciated fact that simple mechanical system like cables have been preventing me from winning every ride.

New technology is so great. These capabilities are only made possible by the latest scientific advances. Who would have even contemplated building a wireless electronic shifting system ten years ago? It simply wasn't even possible. Never mind Mavic's group (that was all photochopped pictures and fake reviews.) But now the technology is so advanced (e.g. microprocessors and servos were invented by Sam Hill on July 8th and 9th, 2010), it's awesome. I am so stoked. Like super-ultra stoked. The future looks like the sun.
 

eatmyshorts

Monkey
Jun 18, 2010
110
0
South OZ
agreed that the price is out of control now... and there is no way I would spec Di2 on my bike if I had to pay for it... However added features like fail safes mean in the future it may lead to a better product..

Correct - front shifting is the biggest improvement overall due the huge forces developed by the front der... enough to fold a normal chainring.. hence the are hollow..

The benefit for the rear was described to me as an advantage on a ride like the 2nd day from the end of the tour de france - when you are totally smashed and normal shifters risk a miss shift – causing a broken chain – places at the finish line. Fat, lycra clad, fair weather riders will benefit from the effort saved with Di2 to prevent an imminent heart attack on the way to the café.

Bottom line there is always going to be a heap of rich guys that have found the limit of blowing dollars on golf clubs - most of the become roadies..
 

yuroshek

Turbo Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
2,438
0
Arizona!
Ok so before you guys get your panties in a bunch about spending 1200 on a derailleur that your gonna rip off in 4 seconds. Think about the WC level sponsored riders say at... World Champs. Neko lost Jr World Champs by .06, could he have won if he was using a Di2 derailleur? maybe, who knows but maybe if he was running the Di2 his shifting might have given him that .07 that he needed. Then it would totally be worth the "$1200.00 +" dollars.

Look at Fabian at World Champs, he goes nuts trying to make his bike super efficient. They put in hundreds of hours of dialing in his bike, making 1 off products and what not. Do you guys know how much money goes into that 1 race run? Big companies dont mind paying that extra bit if their rider has a chance of being a World Champion for a year. Trust me.

Why are you guys so quick to write off expensive products that could be the future of racing? Just because you cant afford it doesnt mean its a dumb idea.
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,567
3
CT
Ok so before you guys get your panties in a bunch about spending 1200 on a derailleur that your gonna rip off in 4 seconds. Think about the WC level sponsored riders say at... World Champs. Neko lost Jr World Champs by .06, could he have won if he was using a Di2 derailleur? maybe, who knows but maybe if he was running the Di2 his shifting might have given him that .07 that he needed. Then it would totally be worth the "$1200.00 +" dollars.

Look at Fabian at World Champs, he goes nuts trying to make his bike super efficient. They put in hundreds of hours of dialing in his bike, making 1 off products and what not. Do you guys know how much money goes into that 1 race run? Big companies dont mind paying that extra bit if their rider has a chance of being a World Champion for a year. Trust me.

Why are you guys so quick to write off expensive products that could be the future of racing? Just because you cant afford it doesnt mean its a dumb idea.
Because custom high end technology to shave .06 seconds off a run has no real relevance to me. From the sidelines sure its cool, but for weekend warriors, its far beyond overkill.

Just IMO of course.
 

eatmyshorts

Monkey
Jun 18, 2010
110
0
South OZ
development = better bikes..

if it wasn’t for this process we would be running trails because its pretty hard to make a bike from bits of twigs and rocks..

Let it roll and let your wallets decide what product is main stream.. easy...
 

Dirtgash

Chimp
Apr 27, 2009
1
0
Ok so before you guys get your panties in a bunch about spending 1200 on a derailleur that your gonna rip off in 4 seconds. Think about the WC level sponsored riders say at... World Champs. Neko lost Jr World Champs by .06, could he have won if he was using a Di2 derailleur? maybe, who knows but maybe if he was running the Di2 his shifting might have given him that .07 that he needed. Then it would totally be worth the "$1200.00 +" dollars.

Look at Fabian at World Champs, he goes nuts trying to make his bike super efficient. They put in hundreds of hours of dialing in his bike, making 1 off products and what not. Do you guys know how much money goes into that 1 race run? Big companies dont mind paying that extra bit if their rider has a chance of being a World Champion for a year. Trust me.

Why are you guys so quick to write off expensive products that could be the future of racing? Just because you cant afford it doesnt mean its a dumb idea.

True, but Specialized is the only company that IMO is actually going the right direction with DH designed components thanks to design help with SRAM and DT Swiss. 6 speed cassette with a 30T ring up front (think it is a 30)...lots of clearance and all the rights gears.
 

fluider

Monkey
Jun 25, 2008
440
9
Bratislava, Slovakia
Why are you guys so quick to write off expensive products that could be the future of racing? Just because you cant afford it doesnt mean its a dumb idea.
Because:
- we are weekend warriors, not pro-racers
- we are not sponsored by big companies but by our 8h/day jobs
- I don't like the idea of buying tens of derailuers to sponsor expensive developement they do
- I'm for electronic shifting, not for derailuers.
 

daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,516
42
New York City
You guys go right ahead and smash a $1200 deraileur off a rock. Have fun.

Me, I'd use the money for a gym membership, maybe a training camp, trip to whistler...you know, things that would actually make a difference. ;)
That’s what I was thinking. Hell was pissed when I broke my saint derailleur, I'd go into a week of mourning if I broke a 1200.00 derailleur!!:thumb:
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
Stuff derialeurs. Give us a 100mm wide geared hub that can be used inboard as a gearbox with 135mm dishless rear, and spacing to make whatever BB width designers want. Whack electric shifting on it if need be. and if you must keep pushing deraileurs, just bring back the sh!t you already made FFS, 8 speed, so all you need to make is a nice new shifter for us :thumb:, and ideally a lightweight bolted together type cassette with sprockets sold seperately, so we can make our own custom gearing to suit us, and where we ride.
 

Hesh To Steel

Monkey
Dec 12, 2007
661
1
Hell's Kitchen
There was a shimano rep hanging out doing surveys at diablo last season (or maybe 09). When we asked him about electronic shifting he said some of their WC level testers (I want to say the athertons but don't remember) didn't like it because there was no feedback when you made a shift.

I may be remembering the whole conversation incorrectly though, haha. Wouldn't be the first time.


Anyone complaining about the price of these products is missing the point. EVERYTHING electronic is expensive when it's first developed. There will be a period when only the pros will have access, then the product will come to market in its most expensive form, and then eventually prices will drop. For now it's just a cool bit of tech to talk about. To me, the question of cost is a non-issue right now since we're so early in the development of the product.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
1,978
343
Stuff derialeurs. Give us a 100mm wide geared hub that can be used inboard as a gearbox with 135mm dishless rear, and spacing to make whatever BB width designers want. Whack electric shifting on it if need be. and if you must keep pushing deraileurs, just bring back the sh!t you already made FFS, 8 speed, so all you need to make is a nice new shifter for us :thumb:, and ideally a lightweight bolted together type cassette with sprockets sold seperately, so we can make our own custom gearing to suit us, and where we ride.
:clapping: :thumb: