[SuspectDevice]

I've been trying to convince a customer to let us build his new slalom bike with DI2.
Look at it this way- you can find plenty(or at least I can) of customers that don't bat an eye at spending $12000 on a road bike. A $7000 slalom bike would seem pretty cheap to a customer like that.

Imagine the build- sweet-ass custom frame, Di2, Enve xc rims w/king hubs, qr15 tapered steer tube Xfusion Velvet, etc.
You'd be looking at an absolutely bombproof 19 pound bike that would be indescribably fast and stiff.
Why the hell not, right?

 

[Big J]

again - what's the point?

+1.....

J

 

[SuspectDevice]

The point is absolutely reliable near-instantaneous shifting. Even if the cogset is clogged with peanutbutter mud your shift happens just as quickly and precisely as if it was in the stand.
You can also shift under full power. With the appropriate programming you can hold down the shifter and dump all the gears at once instead of having to use significant force to throw the lever 3 times.
Imagine sprinting down the first straight and seamlessly grabbing three gears at 1800 watts while maintaining 120 rpms without worrying about... anything.

Have any of you skeptics actually used Di2? You will all be using electric drivetrain components within 5 years.

 

[IH8Rice]

You will all be using electric drivetrain components within 5 years.

5 years is VERY optimistic....as is selling a $7000 dual slalom bike

 

[iRider]

For $7000 I would build two sweet-a$$ slalom bikes, one HT and one FS. And on none of them I would have to cheap out on the fork.

 

[iRider]

Have any of you skeptics actually used Di2? You will all be using electric drivetrain components within 5 years.

If they would not waste their R+D dollar on this we would already have gearboxes that are light, reliable and affordable. But I guess it is easier to reinvent the wheel another 100 times and sell is as innovation.
And BTW: there were some hydraulic shifters a couple of years ago that were sick. Unfortunately the small companies went under before it could catch on. Shimano patented something along those lines too:
http://bicycletech.blogspot.com/2006/04/shimano-patent-7032475-hydraulic.html

 

[jonKranked]

The point is absolutely reliable near-instantaneous shifting. Even if the cogset is clogged with peanutbutter mud your shift happens just as quickly and precisely as if it was in the stand.
You can also shift under full power. With the appropriate programming you can hold down the shifter and dump all the gears at once instead of having to use significant force to throw the lever 3 times.
Imagine sprinting down the first straight and seamlessly grabbing three gears at 1800 watts while maintaining 120 rpms without worrying about... anything.

Have any of you skeptics actually used Di2? You will all be using electric drivetrain components within 5 years.

Hey Mickster, next time I see you, I wanna demo a bike with electric shifting.

 

[yuroshek]

If they would not waste their R+D dollar on this we would already have gearboxes that are light, reliable and affordable. But I guess it is easier to reinvent the wheel another 100 times and sell is as innovation.

This is ridiculous why should shimano care about gearbox's for DH bikes? They make a huge margin of their money thru their road components. There is a bigger demand for high end road components then there is for high end DH products. why? because a lot of DH riders are too cheap, roadies have money to spend on expensive products. Most roadies are in their 30's, 40's and 50's when your average DH riders is between 16-27.

 

[norbar]

Also isnt gearbox a dh bike specific product? To make it reasonable for AM/Enduro market which is where they could have made money off it it would have to be even lighter. While Di2 can be used on ANY bike. Why the hell you gearbox fanboys dont get the differance. If I was working for a big company and my goal was to make profit i would choose Di2 over gearbox. Any day, any time.

 

[iRider]

I am not talking gearbox for DH only, I am talking gearbox in general! Ever seen how many of the commuter bikes in Europe use internal geared hubs? There they went with IG hubs because the market DEMANDED it. Your average commuter has not a clue about bike maintenance, so they ask for something reliable. Now if the we mountainbikers would not be so stupid to think one gear more at the time on our cassettes is a groundbreaking invention and would DEMAND either lightweight IG hubs or gearboxes Shimano and SRAM would produce them. But they let their marketing departments spread the hype of 8, 9, 10, 11 speed and everybody is happily buying it. I bet with you that the MTB market in general outweighs the road market. And if every MTB down to the 1500 bucks bikes would have a gearbox, that would be huge numbers, also considering that this technology trickles down to commuter and citybikes easier then road stuff.

This is ridiculous why should shimano care about gearbox's for DH bikes? They make a huge margin of their money thru their road components. There is a bigger demand for high end road components then there is for high end DH products. why? because a lot of DH riders are too cheap, roadies have money to spend on expensive products. Most roadies are in their 30's, 40's and 50's when your average DH riders is between 16-27.

 

[jonKranked]

I bet with you that the MTB market in general outweighs the road market.

I want what you're smoking.


MAYBE if you include low-end stuff, like trek 820's.

volume wise, idk. $$ amount, my bet would be on road. I used to live in SoCal, every weekend I would see at least a dozen packs of 50+ road riders, each of them on bikes that cost $7 grand easily.

 

[iRider]

If I was working for a big company and my goal was to make profit i would choose Di2 over gearbox. Any day, any time.

And that is exactly my point! They don't care what the market needs but what they can make the most profit off. But the buyers are stupid enough to fall for it. Marketing mission accomplished!

 

[norbar]

IG hubs work for commuters because they dont care about weight. All the Road and Enduro world cares about IS weight and the largest parts of the market are the most weight obsessed. Most people dont care about gearboxes over weight. We may both not like it (I really want light gearboxess) but be real. Not to mention its easier to make an electric derail than to make a light gearbox. At least from my point of view.

 

[iRider]

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20060630-05bik011z013.pdf

I want what you're smoking.


MAYBE if you include low-end stuff, like trek 820's.

volume wise, idk. $$ amount, my bet would be on road. I used to live in SoCal, every weekend I would see at least a dozen packs of 50+ road riders, each of them on bikes that cost $7 grand easily.

 

[sethimus]

Ok so before you guys get your panties in a bunch about spending 1200 on a derailleur that your gonna rip off in 4 seconds. Think about the WC level sponsored riders say at... World Champs. Neko lost Jr World Champs by .06, could he have won if he was using a Di2 derailleur? maybe, who knows but maybe if he was running the Di2 his shifting might have given him that .07 that he needed. Then it would totally be worth the "$1200.00 +" dollars.

Look at Fabian at World Champs, he goes nuts trying to make his bike super efficient. They put in hundreds of hours of dialing in his bike, making 1 off products and what not. Do you guys know how much money goes into that 1 race run? Big companies dont mind paying that extra bit if their rider has a chance of being a World Champion for a year. Trust me.

Why are you guys so quick to write off expensive products that could be the future of racing? Just because you cant afford it doesnt mean its a dumb idea.

'cause there are rocks and **** in az, u know?

- I'm for electronic shifting, not for derailuers.

so you like to shower but you don't like to get wet?

 

[jonKranked]

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20060630-05bik011z013.pdf

got the figures for the US handy?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't touring bikes a style of road bike?

 

[norbar]

got the figures for the US handy?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't touring bikes a style of road bike?

Also in that 25% MTBs most of them are what you mentioned treks 820s and similars. That comparison is pointless. The only real one would be bikes over 1k$ where gearboxes and electronic shifting have ANY real chance to be found.

 

[TKCastle]

Embrace the future duchebags! Same comments that were posted about DH Carbon frames different title.

 

[Big J]

Take it easy.....how many times do you shift during a race run? Who really needs 10spd for DH w/ fancy smanchy elec. shifters?

A 5 spd gear box on a rig like the Zerode would be perfect as far as I'm concerned, but hey that's just me.

J

 

[SuspectDevice]

5 years is VERY optimistic...

No, not really.

 

[IH8Rice]

No, not really.

electronic shifting has been around for years already and yet we still arent using it like normal derailluers

 

[no skid marks]

The point is absolutely reliable near-instantaneous shifting. Even if the cogset is clogged with peanutbutter mud your shift happens just as quickly and precisely as if it was in the stand.But bends or prematurely wears your chain and therfore cassette.
You can also shift under full powerread above.. With the appropriate programming you can hold down the shifter and dump all the gears at once instead of having to use significant force to throw the lever 3 times.I could do all that on my Lahar with it's Rohloff
Imagine sprinting down the first straight and seamlessly grabbing three gears at 1800 watts while maintaining 120 rpms without worrying about... anything.
Don't need to imagine, my Lahar, and I'm sure the new Zeroed do just that, WITH A GEARBOX!
Have any of you skeptics actually used Di2? You will all be using electric drivetrain components within 5 years.

As we're trained too

This is ridiculous why should shimano care about gearbox's for DH bikes? because it would show great strengths in marketing for Shimannoes reliability. It would be very cheap and easy for them to produce a sub 8 speed 100mm wide hub, that was stupid light and reliable.They make a huge margin of their money thru their road components. There is a bigger demand for high end road components then there is for high end DH products. why? because a lot of DH riders are too cheap, roadies have money to spend on expensive products. Most roadies are in their 30's, 40's and 50's when your average DH riders is between 16-27.

Might aswell sting the DHers hard once then, for a product that will save them heaps. The bike companies can pay royalties for gettting a whole new gearbox bike marketing campain for their profit.

Also isnt gearbox a dh bike specific product?Hell no, everything and maybe even short XC could bennafit. But deffinately endurance racers, cyclocross, and trail/all mountain are the main targets with DH just milking the technoligy, and/or being used for marketing. To make it reasonable for AM/Enduro market which is where they could have made money off it it would have to be even lighter.What does a new Alfine 11 speed weigh compared to an XTR drivetrain? I'm sure they could drop some gears, and deff make it lighter still(possibly less robust(cha ching ****mano). While Di2 can be used on ANY bike. Why the hell you gearbox fanboys dont get the differance. If I was working for a big company and my goal was to make profit i would choose Di2 over gearbox. Any day, any time.

Yes, to make profit, in short, to rip us the cnsumer off, and as that consumer, is it not right to ask for what's right?
All cycling but high end road and XC would bennefit from gearboxs, and I'm sure those catagories would be concoured quickly anyway due to the bennefits of gearboxs.

IG hubs work for commuters because they dont care about weight. All the Road and Enduro world cares about IS weight and the largest parts of the market are the most weight obsessed. Most people dont care about gearboxes over weight. We may both not like it (I really want light gearboxess) but be real. Not to mention its easier to make an electric derail than to make a light gearbox. At least from my point of view.

Again, what's the weight difference between Alfine 11 speed gearbox hub, and XTR drivetrain, XT drivetrain(more common, and Saint drivetrain?
A 100mm wide gearbox with 9speeds or less could easily be made lighter than the Alfine hub, as it isn't under as much load.
The weight difference is also negated due to the weight being inboard, and the gains from less unsprung weight on the suspension, and the light rear end.
and never, never forget the ease of shifting anytime, and the reliability, and savings from lack of perishable and fragile parts.
Shimano, and Sram have the skills to make a good gearbox NOW, and to still be able to profit from sales, with new technoligy, and marketing in the future

 

[wood booger]

You wanna know where Shimano is heading? Well a few weeks back they were awarded some patents, one was for an electronically actuated adjustable seatpost, another was for suspension damping control based on seat post location (dropped or high).

It looks like a full electronic mtn bike. Push button shifting (already have), push button post dropping, and suspension damping dictated by post location. Drop your post, suspension gets plush. Raise your post, suspension stiffens up. Maybe not focused on the DH crowd, but full electronic bikes are coming soon.

Doesn't Cannondale already have some stupid $12,000 Jekyl that has suspension damping, travel, etc all electronically controlled via a small computer on the stem? You can plug it into your pc at home to tune the suspension.

Gearbox is the clear choice for DH riding. Give Shimano a few years and I bet they will have electronic push button gearbox for a DH bike.

 

[norbar]

Yes, to make profit, in short, to rip us the cnsumer off, and as that consumer, is it not right to ask for what's right?
All cycling but high end road and XC would bennefit from gearboxs, and I'm sure those catagories would be concoured quickly anyway due to the bennefits of gearboxs.

Its not ripping the consumer off its making a product for a wider consumer base. Its a differance between making a Merc S class and a Mclaren SLR.

Again, what's the weight difference between Alfine 11 speed gearbox hub, and XTR drivetrain, XT drivetrain(more common, and Saint drivetrain?
A 100mm wide gearbox with 9speeds or less could easily be made lighter than the Alfine hub, as it isn't under as much load.
The weight difference is also negated due to the weight being inboard, and the gains from less unsprung weight on the suspension, and the light rear end.
and never, never forget the ease of shifting anytime, and the reliability, and savings from lack of perishable and fragile parts.
Shimano, and Sram have the skills to make a good gearbox NOW, and to still be able to profit from sales, with new technoligy, and marketing in the future

So give me some numbers. Estimates. I really want a gearbox. As for differance between alfline andd xt drivetrain - wasnt alfline 1.5kg? XT casette + rear der. are what? 400g? Thats a big differance for any xc and road biker. Hell its even a big differance for a dh bike.

I like the ease of shifing and I agree with you on the advantages of the solution. I just think from their point of view it is harder to market and sell while the electronic thingy is for the roadies and they will love any tech crap.

 

[Banshee Rider]

I want gearboxes to happen so people will finally stfu about gearboxes.

 

[no skid marks]

ISo give me some numbers. Estimates. I really want a gearbox. As for differance between alfline andd xt drivetrain - wasnt alfline 1.5kg? XT casette + rear der. are what? 400g? Thats a big differance for any xc and road biker. Hell its even a big differance for a dh bike.That's for a hub made to take load, I can't see why a lesser geared narrower gearbox, could be made a lot lighter. and what does a Saint drivetrain weigh for the DH debate?

I like the ease of shifing and I agree with you on the advantages of the solution. I just think from their point of view it is harder to market and sell while the electronic thingy is for the roadies and they will love any tech crap.

They'd have a field day selling it, and they could market heaps of different types, and upgrades, electric shifting for one.

I want gearboxes to happen so people will finally stfu about gearboxes.

Like people that say trivial crap that clogs threads, and wastes peoples time, just to get a reaction and feel they have a purpose, other people that want to talk on forums to learn, teach and share knowledge will always be there.

 

[Heisenberg]

No, not really.

Heh. You seem aware of Shimano's future plans as well...

 

[Banshee Rider]

They'd have a field day selling it, and they could market heaps of different types, and upgrades, electric shifting for one.

Like people that say trivial crap that clogs threads, and wastes peoples time, just to get a reaction and feel they have a purpose, other people that want to talk on forums to learn, teach and share knowledge will always be there.

...Really?

Carry on with your pipe dreams Cheech. Shimano isn't going waste R&D money on a system that has no benefits besides being able to shift while coasting and saving the customer a few hundred bucks a season in replacement derailleurs. You really think the couple grand they will charge for a gear box will save more money otherwise spent on a traditional set up? New flash: gears wear out. Your nerdbox will still need to be gutted and worked on eventually. That costs money. I'd love to add it all up and see which is more expensive. Oh wait, it doesn't even exist!

I don't care about your reaction, or anyone elses. This thread so far is the epitome of retarded. I wasted no more time with my 1 sentence, than the countless paragraphs spent on a theoretical system that hasn't even been mass produced on the mainstream market.

Get over it.

 

[Dogboy]

I want gearboxes to happen so people will finally stfu about gearboxes.

X infinity.

 

[Silver]

selling parts to rich DHers. I'll be looking to pick up some NOS 8-speed stuff. I rarely use all my gears while DHing, and I see little reason to keep narrow spacing, or go even narrower. Makes perfect sense for roadies, makes 0 for dirt riders.

If I had a dollar for every rich douchebag that needs to lose 30 pounds on a pair of deep-dish Zipp or Lightweight wheels I see on PCH, I'd be a thousanaire.

 

[ianjenn]

Di2 is stupid expensive. I don't have a road bike but if I did SUPER RECORD only please. I just have to post this image I shot of a Di2 group last year...

 

[no skid marks]

...Really?

Carry on with your pipe dreams Cheech. Shimano isn't going waste R&D money on a system that has no benefits besides being able to shift while coasting and saving the customer a few hundred bucks a season in replacement derailleurs. You really think the couple grand they will charge for a gear box will save more money otherwise spent on a traditional set up? New flash: gears wear out. Your nerdbox will still need to be gutted and worked on eventually. That costs money. I'd love to add it all up and see which is more expensive. Oh wait, it doesn't even exist!

I don't care about your reaction, or anyone elses. This thread so far is the epitome of retarded. I wasted no more time with my 1 sentence, than the countless paragraphs spent on a theoretical system that hasn't even been mass produced on the mainstream market.

Get over it.

Rohloff, 40,000kms have been recorded on em without need for new parts. 25ml of oil changed every 5000km.
There's a lot more to a gearbox than parts wearing out, and being fragile.
Better suspension performance.
Multiple gear shifts, etc etc.
Sorry for banging on about gearboxs, but without any marketing, or many riders with experience on them, there's not much of a voice for the concept in discussions. With todays obviously acheivable technoligy, a narrow 9 or less gearred box could be used for many purposes, and if not made with in fuses to make it fail, it would keep lots more people in the sport by making it a lot more affordable, and less annoying. Would also weed out some show ponies. If it was like back in the day when most designs were for the betterment of the cycling experience rather than profit, gearbox DH, trail, and XC bikes would be very real today.
Saying unconstructive sh!t for the sake of it is the cholesterol choking forum arteries of worthy flow of knowledge.
Have a cheap shot at me and leave it.

 

[demo 9]

I have to agree on the gearbox, i think it should be done, sure saint is good, but eventually the der will rattle itself to be looser than a NYC hooker, and need to get replaced, but, i would totally support a gearbox, i cant see a problem with it except for the fact the frame has to be designed around it, id even take a honda der in a box.

EDIT Maybe the wrong approach is being taken, maybe we should be pushing more towards a full 9 (or 5) speed hammerschmidt, or get an internal hub, and make it small enough to be a BB? I am not sold that the gearbox is the answer, but i do think it is better than the normal system. I think i would be most interested in a hammerschmidt that could shift without pedaling and have a full range of cassette gears, and your "front" gear is decided with a singlespeed ring on the back, more or less reversing the setup now, and dumping the der.

 

[norbar]

They'd have a field day selling it, and they could market heaps of different types, and upgrades, electric shifting for one.

Like people that say trivial crap that clogs threads, and wastes peoples time, just to get a reaction and feel they have a purpose, other people that want to talk on forums to learn, teach and share knowledge will always be there.

Man I really hope you are not trying to sell stuff to people as your job. You mistake what would be cool for you (because you understand it) from what would be cool for the 90% of the customers. For most of the non dh crown gearboxes are something foreign. They look heavy(trying to explain it to them they arent would require a lot of cash, a bit like trying to explain to people that the demo is a good racebike ) and seem complicated. People are afraid of things THEY THINK are complicated. Belive me Ive been there with a couple of businesses in my family.


Also the whole weight inside the frame argument means **** to people who actually want to go up with their bikes - they want them light. No matter where you put the weight their response would be - umm but this bike is heavier. I will have the one without the gear thingy.



I think thats the main problem with your thinking - you WANT the gearbox and therefore you BELIVE that it is logical for Shimano to do it. They will make it at some point probably but they are not so much in a hurry because the only ones who really care about gearboxes right now are downhillers and thats not even true because its only a part of that group. They would have to convince people they need it - costs money and time. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[no skid marks]

They would have to convince people they need it - costs money and time. Why is that so hard to understand?

Sales man:- "I have this bike with a gearbox, it cost a bit more than the bike I just showed you, but the suspension is more active, and therefore tuneable, you can shift gears when standing still, pedaling, backpedaling even. Look, I'll change five gears, now, as soon as you pedal it's in that gear. So you can shift while pedaling into a hill, with no soft pedaling or crunching. and multiple gears if desired. The weight is between your legs, so the bike is a lot more manouverable, with the bikes weight swinging off the main gearbox weight like an axis.
and the best part, you'll only have to come and see me at the shop to get a new chain, and that will last at least twice as long anyway. Oh and to change a drip of oil once or twice a year, while you wait.
Hmmm hard sell, NOT. Put a few pros on it(like Hill on the mentioned "huck bike" Demo, and it's money in the bank for ****mano.

 

[norbar]

Sales man:- "I have this bike with a gearbox, it cost a bit more than the bike I just showed you, but the suspension is more active, and therefore tuneable, you can shift gears when standing still, pedaling, backpedaling even. Look, I'll change five gears, now, as soon as you pedal it's in that gear. So you can shift while pedaling into a hill, with no soft pedaling or crunching. and multiple gears if desired. The weight is between your legs, so the bike is a lot more manouverable, with the bikes weight swinging off the main gearbox weight like an axis.
and the best part, you'll only have to come and see me at the shop to get a new chain, and that will last at least twice as long anyway. Oh and to change a drip of oil once or twice a year, while you wait.
Hmmm hard sell, NOT. Put a few pros on it(like Hill on the mentioned "huck bike" Demo, and it's money in the bank for ****mano.

Pros dont mean that much for the XC crowd, almost none to the AM and Enduro guys.

As for weight - its still heavier so heavier on the uphills. Why do you go around that argument for non dh use?


btw. Ive been in that situation - superior product, even if you can explain doesnt mean you will convince buyers and sure as hell doesnt mean regular shop guys will. The answer would be a bit like -- ...bbut it it llooks heavy and seems complicated. What happens if I break it?

One simple rule I found - When people dont understand something they will run away from it. (or in America call it the Antichrist and claim it wasnt born there)

 

[Banshee Rider]

Saying unconstructive sh!t for the sake of it is the cholesterol choking forum arteries of worthy flow of knowledge.
Have a cheap shot at me and leave it.

Just because I threw a wrench in the gearbox wheels doesn't mean it's a cheap shot; it's a valid argument.

Everytime there is a discussion regarding anything drivetrains; 2x10, 9t cogs, Di2, etc., someone has to trainwreck the entire discussion about the thread subject with crazy banter about gearboxes. Like this thread. How is that for cholesterol choking?

I totally conceptualize why gearboxes will be cool. But I'm also living in the real world, and understand that every year in the memorable past, someone has presented a gearbox at Interbike, and none of them end up on the mainstream market. Thats heavy indication that there isn't a viable market for the company to blow its financial load on the bringing the project to fruition. See:

You mistake what would be cool for you (because you understand it) from what would be cool for the 90% of the customers.

Marketing doesn't consist of posting on the ridemonkey downhill forum. I'm sorry. If you want to sell bibles, this place isn't the epicenter of the cycling world.

 

[iRider]

Pros dont meant that much for the XC crowd, almost none to the AM and Enduro guys.

Wait, the XC guys are weight weenies, that's right. But they came around to use suspension forks, full suspension and now 29ers, although you could build way lighter bikes without.
And I have learned that from the 29er hype: you don't have to actually show scientific evidence that something is superior, just get some cool, core scene people to be really vocal about it (we have that for gearboxes already), let some small companies work out the concept (currently done for GBs) and then when the big companies see that they lose too much sales to the small or run out of own ideas they will adopt the concept and sell it as their own idea (hopefully soon for GBs).

And like I said before, check an average bike shop in any big european city: t least 1/3 of the commuter/trekking/etc. bikes have IGs.

 

[Banshee Rider]

And like I said before, check an average bike shop in any big european city: t least 1/3 of the commuter/trekking/etc. bikes have IGs.

How many commuter/trekking/etc bikes are sold each year compared to current model year, off the floor, full retail, DH bikes?

 

[norbar]

Wait, the XC guys are weight weenies, that's right. But they came around to use suspension forks, full suspension and now 29ers, although you could build way lighter bikes without.
And I have learned that from the 29er hype: you don't have to actually show scientific evidence that something is superior, just get some cool, core scene people to be really vocal about it (we have that for gearboxes already), let some small companies work out the concept (currently done for GBs) and then when the big companies see that they lose too much sales to the small or run out of own ideas they will adopt the concept and sell it as their own idea (hopefully soon for GBs).

And like I said before, check an average bike shop in any big european city: t least 1/3 of the commuter/trekking/etc. bikes have IGs.

I agree with you and that is what I was suggesting. No Skid Marks wants the push to go from big companies and we know they wont go for it. It will probably be an organic growth with small mfgs like Zerode pushing it.

Though If the GB fanatics continue behaving like the 29 inch prophets soon I will just hate myself for thinking about Gearboxes.


btw. Never thought about or noticed the 1/3 ig statistic. Must visit some shop that has commuters in stock.