Oh, I almost forgot. Your country also fought in Iraq. So I guess your country did believe "our hype" as you put it.
how much can the USA get away with?
- Thread starter LordOpie
- Start date
Toshi said:
yeah, like spain is doing soooo much better with their arab problem with their peace loving policies.
thank you for the actually researched reply.genpowell71 said:
let me just add to that the entire continent of europe has blood on its hands, so it's ridiculous to criticize the U.S. for its "atrocities". And do you want to talk about the belgians or the dutch in the south-eastern africa? people say remember guatamala, I say remember algiers.
I take exception to the logistically or tactically...genpowell71 said:
By definition, that's just using your cabesa. And logistically Al Queda has proven their mettle I think. 9/11 was a pretty huge operation and they pulled it off in great style. The US has bigger guns and planes....but if they were such logistical (Logistic?) and tactical geniuses, shouldn't bin Laden have been found by now?....and far fewer "good guys" would have been blown to kingdom come by friendly fire.....
I agree with you to a certain point. I've seen Afghanistan, and I'm here to tell you that if you dont want to be found, then you wont be. The tribal leaders up there would take you in to their houses and feed you well, then turn around and shoot you in the back if they were offered enough money. Bin Laden is smart, no doubt about that. But he fights a guerilla war, not a battlefield war with tanks. Logistically, (not logically) very little support was needed to do the 9/11 attacks. Some cash and a few fake ID's. And besides, face it. You don have to be Houdini to make it across from Canada. The terrorists can get their own plane tickets. Intelligence can be gotten by just watching the airport for security mistakes. Also, you can get just about anything off the net these days. Besides, the majority of the bad guys, are educated anyway.
And one more thing. Not to be offensive, but if your not in the military, you have no idea what it takes to fight a battle, let alone a whole war. Logistics (beans, bullets and bombs) keep an army in business. The Cabesa is just the guys doing the fighting.
That's complete and utter bull****. Much like saying that a person from the US has no business talking about racism anywhere else in the world (Japan comes to mind...) because slavery lasted so long in the US.nicklin said:
You know what the difference is between the Belgians in the Congo and the US right now?
The US is tramping around the world right now. Saying that a former empire can't criticize the current one is circular thinking at best, unless you believe that empire is a good thing.
Well there you go. He's smart enough to hide in place where it's really hard to find people....doing basic observation for the airport security lapses.... getting a dozen people trained to fly 767's and 757's....well that's a little more than fake ID's....
But all this....as basic as it is, resulted in one of the most devastating events in history. Yes, it's all basic. But incredibly effective. So what's smarter? Having fancy shmancy weapons, or piecing together a highly effective plan using "common household items".....and then go hide out somewhere where it would be almost impossible to find you?
Frickin brilliant tactics. So I'm not so sure that the US is so far and away superior tactically speaking. Al Quaida knows its limitations, and its strengths..which is apparently using our own weaknesses against us. It doesn't get any more "elegant" than that. It's like Kung Fu!
But all this....as basic as it is, resulted in one of the most devastating events in history. Yes, it's all basic. But incredibly effective. So what's smarter? Having fancy shmancy weapons, or piecing together a highly effective plan using "common household items".....and then go hide out somewhere where it would be almost impossible to find you?
Frickin brilliant tactics. So I'm not so sure that the US is so far and away superior tactically speaking. Al Quaida knows its limitations, and its strengths..which is apparently using our own weaknesses against us. It doesn't get any more "elegant" than that. It's like Kung Fu!
genpowell71 said:
I would never purport to ever know anything about the military...other than what people tell me. I've worked a with a bunch of ex-military dudes over the past few years....so I've gotten their versions of stuff. The guy next to me at work was in Iraq (or Kuwait?) for Desert Storm.genpowell71 said:
And by no means is this a bad thing, but as a grunt, you will always be told by your superiors that you are better than your enemy in every way. That's just good training.
But you can't really look down on al Quaeda for fighting guerilla style. You can't expect to have guys in red coats on one side of a field and guys in blue coats on the other and then have at it. It would seem from the news reports anyway that Al Quaeda, and Iraqi loyalists...or whatever they are called, are doing a decent job of keeping things on their terms. They are horribly out-gunned, out-pretty-much-everthinged...but they are still holding their own. To me, that would indicate a very efficient use of resources.
The first roadside bomb I ever found, wanna know what they used for shrapnel? Glass, wood, and old car parts. The explosive hey used was the plastic explosive from an old 155mm shell. Where did they get the shell from? There was a old munitions dump outsice of Mosul that we had to gaurd. We spent 6 days out there blowing up artillery rounds. We used more than 2000 lbs of C4 and we still had shells left. The badguys are still around because they already have access to it. And that was my point. They have great logistics and intelligence because they still continue to mount attacks and manage to fade back into the civilian populace. I cant argue with the results. They are fighting a war on their terms and are doing a damn good job of it.
I guess "if" the US couldn't care less about innocent civilians and not have any rules we could be more effective too. I mean lets face it. The "freedom fighters" are using everything at their disposal.....we are not.MMike said:
We could turn that portion of the world into a big piece of glass. I am glad we have controls in place that prevent that....but if we were allowed to go in and kill everyone we could identify as "not us" like the freedom fighters seem to do we could be effective also. We would be wrong in doing so......so sayeth most of the modern world, but that is what the US is facing. An opponent with no rules. Also this wouldn't stop the problem as they are spread throughout the world. It is no secret that gorrilla warfare is effective....it has been used for a long time with much success. It is like walking through a bees nest and not knowing which direction the next sting is going to come from.
What is the solution?
hrug: We can't/won't let the US go that route. That means we keep on walking through a bees nest killing 1 or 2 at a time. Or we could smoke the bees and kill every last one of them as they lay dazed and confused.....but we can't tell the ones stinging from the ones just flying around after they are rounded up.9/11 was a result of them playing their cards right and using civilian innocents/devices to do their bidding. It was not difficult for them to do..relatively. With resources or people. It was highly effective but it also is something the US and most of the world is not ready to mimic....much to the freedom fighters shurgrin(sp?)
Remember:
Peace Kills
Peace Kills
Man I was trying to just shrug that off the whole post, but that statement is about as missleading as they come...and from Fluff.fluff said:
One day the US used the new and powerfull weapon.....have we used it since? I think the after effects were so scary no country has used them since...but kept it available as a deterant. The new nuclear bombs of today are loads more powerfull than the two dropped in WWII. I am not playing down the use of the bomb, but showing that the section of your post I highlighted was grossly missleading (though not necessarily false)
Not ruling out first strike...who else has refused to sign on for no first strike? What does that even mean? They don't get cookies at nap time if they break the agreement? Seams like the US controls developed to hold back a possible first strike is better than any signed peice of paper.
Talk about believing the hype....what was that you posted? About as hype infused "trueth" meant to misslead as there ever was...
It actually sounded angry...
I could post about the rest of the items you posted but this one bugged me the most.Rhino
That depends, when were you looking at the files? Now adays, we have more than Russia. We've always had them beat out on "suitcase" nukes. They are designed to have a lower tonnage yield than a full out tactical nuke. The Special Ops community used to practice inserting and getting to a target and setting one. They arent much bigger than a suitcase and only weigh about 100 lbsa dn only yield about 10 kilotons... Convienient huh?
fluff said:
now let me tell you something you limey with half baked historical facts that sits far away and think you are better than us:
wanna know how many people the japs raped and killed in the asia-pacific rim area? it wasn't f*cking anger. trust me, My grandfather was an army paratrooper and saved your sorry lobster-coat a*s, and my grandparents on my mom's side had half their families wiped out under the "samurai" swords after the women were tortured and men's body parts cut off. so don't tell me that the japs(again i apologize but i think it is appropriate to use this term to describe the sub-human animals that the japanese still warship as saints).
in case you are too indulged in you little island in the Queen's glory, look up "japs' and "genocide" or "systematic extermination" and "chemical/biological weapons experimentation on foreign civilians" on google, or how about "japanese army pow treatment" then talk to us about chemical weapons stockpile and anger.
if we didn't nuke the two military cities, do you know how many american boys and japanese civilians would die in horrible pain in the alternative landing assault? oh i'm sorry, becuase britain pulled out of Hongkong when the first shells landed in the south china sea. so you wouldn't know. and why don't you mention how much manpower and money america gave to japan for re-construction? has england paid African and south asian countries for centuries of robbery and slavery, not to mention opium traffcing to China and surrounding countries?
and have we used chemical weapons like Saddam to his own people?
if you think you know what war crime and irresponsible diplomacy is, ask your grandparent what happened in South Africa, India, and the middle east. oh wait, I'm sorry, wasn't England controlling Iraq for the longest time?
what's your answer, fluff?
I hate to break it to you hippies, but in history, losers don't equal victims, it only means they killed off their potential allies that could have helped them to win.
how about them french and german oil investment with saddam? do you honestly think that the germans andfrench would prtest so loudly for the good of human kind?Silver said:
as a matter of fact i do think americans don't have rights talking about racism in the rest of the world, but neither can the english, french, germans, italians, spanish, belgian, russian, dutch, swiss, Hungarians, Ukranians, latvians, yoguslavians, indians, japanese, australians, want me to continue?
What was your question?nicklin said:
If you wish to understand why much of the world does not see America as it sees itself all you need to do is to review the responses to my post. My post was one-sided but factual, I could post more items like those that cast America in a bad light.
That some other nations are or have been worse is no reason to justify why America's actions do not live up to the promise and self image.
If you are really interested in a debate we can have one but if people wish to fall back on tired old myths, chest beating and stereotyped insults it is pointless.
I am also fully aware that the UK has as much blood on its hands as every other western nation (I am probably more aware of UK history than anyone else in this thread). However, it changes nothing and this thread is about the US.
The facts are that much of the world does hate the US. Do you care?
That some other nations are or have been worse is no reason to justify why America's actions do not live up to the promise and self image.
If you are really interested in a debate we can have one but if people wish to fall back on tired old myths, chest beating and stereotyped insults it is pointless.
I am also fully aware that the UK has as much blood on its hands as every other western nation (I am probably more aware of UK history than anyone else in this thread). However, it changes nothing and this thread is about the US.
The facts are that much of the world does hate the US. Do you care?
I think it's safe to say that the answer is a hearty "no". "We're the best fock the rest"....and all that....fluff said:
where's the old myth and chest beating? the myth that the japanese deserved the nukes or the stereo type insults that half my family as nearly wiped out? I'm glad that people like to use facts, but one-sided partial facts is just as bad as lies. It's all about context of events, such as the nuking of japanese cities, why don't we talk about the CIRCUMSTANCES that it happened under? you hippies like to use "hard" facts to point out how morally corrupt america is, but you ignore the fact that some of the decisions were extremely hard on the one who made them and the ones executed them.
it's like how my dad's side of the family hates turks becasue they are greeks. when you entire family gets slaughtered by bunch of sword waving morons, you tend to care a lot. so i have both side of my family hating someone for a legitamite reason. what has america done to your family? save you from the germans? sorry, didn't mean to do that, we just liked you ports.
it's like how my dad's side of the family hates turks becasue they are greeks. when you entire family gets slaughtered by bunch of sword waving morons, you tend to care a lot. so i have both side of my family hating someone for a legitamite reason. what has america done to your family? save you from the germans? sorry, didn't mean to do that, we just liked you ports.
I can look at your post and see that your one of those liberal selfindulgent people that the moment something bad happens in the world, you take the moral high ground and start to throw dirt and mud. And your little statement about being onesided was right on the money. You cant make a 2 sided argument without showing fault in "the British way". I freely admit we make mistakes and that we more than likely will continue to do so in the future. I for one remember more than I care to. We've stuck our nose where it didnt belong, and we've paid for it.fluff said:
In closing, 2 things:
1. As far as world opinion goes, who cares what the world thinks? I've seen Paris. Its an armpit. Berlin is a snob's paradise, and London? I actually like the city of London. I didnt care what the French or the Germans think. I still dont.
2. The rest of the world are the ones that set the goals for our actions. We have a saying in this country: No matter how many women your've slept with, the first guy you kiss, your a homosexual for life. Meaning, all the world ever sees are the bad things. They never see the good things that we do.
AND NO I DONT CARE!!!!
:devil:I guess you'd know, you can smell your own huh? Puker up big boy!!!! :evil:
genpowell71 said:
alright, so why is YOU thinking like that good, and some arab guy with a similar mindset who thinks texas is an armpit and ny is a snob paradise, and san francisco a nice city??
what makes him wrong and you right, when he doesnt give a crap of your opinion and wants to blow you all because he hates your "ways of living", the same as you dislike theirs??
or when they protest and kill people because the US tells them what to do, or what not to dress? of how to behave??. after all, those are their costumes, just like yours are probably eating at mcdonalds, and eat pork, or wear thongs in the beach???
alright, some of them bomb people and stuff, and some americans decide to invade their country kill a few thousand meanwhile.
there are differences, and i was trying to be dramatic to illustrate.
but from a mindset point of view. both of you, the ultra right wing american, and the extremist islamic, who think they are the only owners of a universal truth, are full of $hit.
ALEXIS_DH said:
dude, have you seen the videoes of how afgan women lived under the taliban? shut in their homes, heavily veiled, denied education, stoned if caught/accused of cheating, public excecution. remember the BBC documentary that some of saw? Do you think they "prefer" to be be treated like that if they had the choice like we do? how about the rest of middle east?
you see, afgan and other middle eastern country women were/are being killed and ridiculed if they don't follow the dress and behavior code. Do you see the United States Army putting up signs everywhere in Iraq or afganistan saying "dress like the little whore Christina Aguelara or else"? No sir, they don't.
nicklin said:
yeah, of course the US has some points like that. more "good" points than the arabs.
and i was being dramatic to illustrate points, and i also can tell some weak points of the US "living ways", which may be not as bad as stoning woman, but are still bad nonetheless.
just think of legal stuff you can do here, that is as bad seen in other countries as stoning women to death.
abortion, hardcore porn, or selling shotguns right next to your groceries at walmart for example.
i was talking from a mindset standpoint of view, those who want to impose rules and ruling over the arabs (without regard of their beliefs, whether they are "right" or "wrong"), or anybody are full of crap.
and both the extremist islamics, AND the ultra right wing US-ers are in the same sack because both think they are totally right.
the US-ers for imposing what they think is right (while it has some "good" points, is far from perfect), and the islamics (who might not have as many "good" points).
but still, both sides push fueled by their almost dogmatical beliefs (which might be wrong or right, is not the point of my argument), and that is what makes them (in a mindset POV), the same thing.
Yup, I'm all sorts of full of sh*t. Thats why I can wake up every morning and know that I was apart of an effort to end BOTH the Taliban's AND Saddam's regieme.ALEXIS_DH said:
First, I never said the US was perfect. We have our own issues that we need to deal with. Chemical weapons, homeless people, unemployment, Aids, teen pregnancy. I can go on for a week about that. My point in the last posting was that why should we care what the world thinks about us?
Second, yes we sell guns at walmart. Thats called consumerism and it helps the economy. I used to hunt, and I dont think that selling hunting weapons at walmart is a bad thing. When they start to sell handguns there, then I'll have an issue with that. And lets not bust on walmart, they have great prices on DVD's and CD's. Not to mention, Sam Walton's (founder of walmart) son won the Distinguished service cross in Vietnam in 1969.
Thirdly, all we did was set up a governor till the congress and prime-minister was appointed and a constitution was ratified. We WILL hand over power to the people and let them govern themselves. As far as us pulling out, I'm all for it. I lost a few friends there last year. It sickens me to hear about all the soldiers losing their lives to a bunch of faceless cowards who WONT stand up to be counted with the enemy.
fourth, The US isnt being pushed by "dogmatical" beliefs. We were there to liberate a country from a dictator and we did it. We were'nt there to impose Christianity on them. The crusades are over...
Lastly, I'm not an "ultra-right winger". I dont like Dubbya or the majority of his cabinet. I dont like his policies, or the fact he tries to play Iraq like it was for a good cause, not for trying to avenge "his daddy". But because he's my commnader in chief, I follow his orders and bitch about it later. Damn it feels good to be an American!!!
good points, genpowell71. however i take issue with #4. i believe this current administration is very much acting in a dogmatic way. er, that still doesn't sound right, oh well. in different wording, i think it's clear that the powers that pull the marionette strings want to impose their judeo-christian beliefs on the region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz
And if they try, I can gaurantee more problems than we have solutions for. But the great thing that came out of the last 18 months of strife was a multi- sect government that included the major Islam branches in Iraq to include Christianity, Catholiscism, and the Kurdish Islam.
I read the info on your link, but can't find anything as to why you may think of him pushing his belief's in Iraq.Toshi said:
I never quite understood this argument. You're mad at people in a country that got invaded on false pretenses because they refuse to put on a uniform and take a FAE right on the head?genpowell71 said:
Or, you're mad that the enemy won't line up against you and fight the honorable way? It sounded pretty dumb when Redcoats made the same argument, and it still sounds dumb today.
I'm calling BS on this one.Toshi said:
Yes it sounds like a big bad America Agenda pushing organization. But in truth, it is probably just like any other "Chairman of the Board" type club where a bunch of rich a$$holes get together a few times a year and act like big shots, and get some whores and play golf.
Hell, I joined the Free Masons expecting to be surrounded by thousands of people who were interested in learning about the true orgins of how we got here, religion. etc...
But instead it was mainly a bunch of old guys getting together for a fish fry once a month.
The one main advantage is I can now access "almost" any Masonic library. And I am rarely disturbed, cause I think I am the only one who cares about that stuf anymore.
The truth is out there, you just have to look for it.
Thing is tho, the PNAC proposals are in affect. The stuff they said in 1997 they want to happen in the then near future is actually happening. There's a huge difference between a group of Free Masons -- who may or may not have actual power -- and the Administration running the most powerful country on the planet.Jesus said:
Actually, if you do a little research on the internet, you'll see that the Masons really control everything. Supposedly no president can do anything without our giving him the thumbs up. And that goes for any other world leader.LordOpie said:
I know the stuff they said was going to happen is actually happening, but so are the predictions from Revelations, and I sure don't believe that crap either. I can make a big list of stuff that's going to happen in 7 years, and there is a good chance some of it will happen also. That's the way it works.
I just think this sounds like a bunch of BS, just like most other conspiracy theories.