[Fly]

What you need:

1: 5th element/Swinger
2: Manitou metal monotube donor shock
3: 1L of 5wt suspension fluid
4: Basic tools (shifting spanner, allen keys
5: See through bag an some zipties/rubber bands
6: Six pack 'o your finest

Method:

-Dissemble both damper units (your 5th/Swinger + your donor Metal)

-Remove SPV piston off 5th element shaft with spanner. It is recommended you use the Manitou Metal chromed shaft in the new frankenshock (as it dramatically reduces stiction compared to a 5th nitride shaft) but if you're an amateur, you might want to do one thing at a time.

-All threads are standard direction. It may be difficult to remove the SPV piston from your 5th, so its recommended you stick the shaft in a vice with soft jaws (if you plan to re-use that shaft).

-Remove the shim-stack-type piston from the Metal. Screw it onto your 5th shaft. If you are using the chromed metal shaft, you can ignore this step.

-Remove the lower eyelet from both lower shafts (5th and metal). These are often sticky and tricky. Make sure you don't use pliers on the shaft, it will gouge and fvck up future sealing.

-If you are switching damper shafts, remove both lower damper seals (the whjole aluminium part that screws into the shock body) and re-use the standard 5th lower seal unit. If you are re-using the 5th shaft, this seal can obviously remain on the stock nitride shaft. Otherwise, take the 5th lower seal and fit it to your chromed manitou shaft.

-Refit lower 5th eyelet to whichever shaft you are using (5th or manitou)

-Get a see-thru bag and cut the two lower corners off. Fit these two small holes over your shock body - one for the reservoir, one for the main body. Fit rubber bands or zippy ties tightly over the plastic bag, sealing it tightly around its relevant tube

- Fill the plastic bag with oil. It will run into the tubes of the damper, as you have basically created a floppy, double spouted funnel.

-Cycle the damper shaft in the tube. The removes air.

- With the damper piston sitting at the top of its stroke, but without the oil seal screwed in, and making sure there is sufficient oil (around 2-3cm deep) covering the reservoir hole, insert the internal floating piston such that no air is trapped in the recess of the underside. Push the IFP down the tube until it stops on the bottom of the reservoir. It should take force to get the IFP down, as there is oil being cycled through the little tubes connecting the main body to the Resi. This will push out excess air.

-Screw the lower seal into the main body (your damper shaft should be fully extended, or 'topped out' against the seal unit as it would be at full extension. If you have bottomed the IFP in the resi with the piston halfway down the main tube, pull it out, let oil run in, and make sure it is bottomed against the lower seal unit when you screw it in next time.

-Rebuilding the shock must occur with BOTH tubes covered sufficiently deep in your oil bath. If yiou insert the pistons without oil covering the tops of the main body tubes, you will push air into the system.

Stick it on the bike and ride.

The ride: Pretty much as plush as a DHX. I took a few compression shims out of my damper. Seems to bottom out more easily now, thats probably a result of not having as much damping from the SPV piston. I just bumped up air pressure and HSC to counteract this.

Huge improvement though - you won't know its a 5th after this mod.

Feel free to ask any questions on the process. Pictures of dissembled dampers are provided below. I haven't been able to take pictures of the whole porcess though, my hands were oily.

As you can see in the pics, I had to grind wrench flats in the nitride shaft to remove it from the 5th eyelet I wanted to use on the chrome shaft. This shoud be a last resort, and obviously you need to make every effort not to scratch or gouge in any way the damper shaft you plan on using. Block of wood drilled with the appropriate size hole, then split in half, provide excellent block to clamp the shaft in when clamped in a vice. You can get plenty of friction without hurting the shaft. Rubber tube can be clamped between the wood and shaft if you're still getting slippage.

 

[LOOnatic]

Dam Fly that's an interesting project as many folks still have 5th element "paper weights" around somewhere.
Just gotta find a cheap Metal donor.

My only changes would be to bump up #6 on your parts list to a 12 pack

 

[XGrantX]

were you still able to use the same spring? Does the donor have to be a monotube?

 

[jvnixon]

looks like a solid mod, very nice

 

[Fly]

Guys, I did some more experimenting this morning, and it might not even be necessary to have a donor shock (although I highly recommend it, because the chrome shaft is a dramatic performance enhancer).

To convert your 5th to shim power from SPV without a donor metal, you simply need a big spacer - to take up the gap between the piston and shaft that the SPV piston would usually occupy, so, from the top of the shock, in order you have:

Circlip/allen head bolt (varies on year models)
Rebound shims
Cental hollow bolt (holds the whole thing on)
Piston
Compression shims
Spacer, the length of the old SPV piston, (outer diameter should be about 8mm, you don't want antything too wide that will hinder compression shim movement)
Top-out spacer
Shaft

As such, it doesn't matter that there is a big gap between the top of the shaft and the piston, as at top out, the spacer/washer will contact the lower seal as it always did, and instead of the SPV unit, there will just be a big space (~1.5cm). Make sure you use the top-out spacer immediately at the top of the shaft though - otherwise the shaft will pull through the seal until you have your homemade spacer making its way through the seal - not good, oil everywhere.

I am using this setup at the moment, and it feels almost identical to the setup with the Manitou Metal piston, as they are essentially the same thing. Ideally, you want the short Manitou bolt though, as spacers are unnecessary, and a bit dodgy in the long run maybe.

One thing to note about the mod - It seems to reduce rebound range.

My 5th used to go from topping out, to returning from full stroke in about 20sec at the extremes of adjustment. Now, with the mod, the rebound range is closer to my forks rebound range (06 Boxxer). That is to say, it goes from topping out to taking around 3 sec to return from full stroke. There is still enough adjustment for anyone out there, because at the slowest setting, it is still WAY too slow for anything but extreme-height hucking, but it was interesting that rebound range decreased (that said, no one I knew ever operated the 5th's in the entire workable rebound range anyway, it was excessive).

 

[Fly]

were you still able to use the same spring? Does the donor have to be a monotube?

Hmmm, not sure about the monotube thing. I couldn't guarantee that the reservoir version was shim stack and not SPV. Give manitou a call maybe? Same spring is used, as essentially the only things you change are the shaft and piston. The spring collars and eyelet should remain the same.

I might even do up a little machining project, and make a whole lot of spacers the right size to mod any 5th/swinger, so that its just a simple strip down, re-fit and rebuild without another whole shock.

 

[thelastsession]

Who wants to buy a manitou metel I got one.

 

[_*sTiTcHeS*_]

Who wants to buy a manitou metel I got one.

me too. 50 bux. never used. 2" stroke.

 

[SK6]

The irony is this.....three little years ago, the 5th Element was the shiznits....LOL....

 

[Kornphlake]

I'll be tearing my shock apart tomorrow or monday, I'll get some measurements for a spacer and have something made. I've got the resources to make a spacer for a lot less than I could buy a second shock.

One question, after pushing the floating piston into the reservoir and purging the air from the passageway between the resi and shock body do you screw on the shaft seal assembly or is it better to drain the excess oil out of the piggyback and screw the end cap on the reservoir and pressurize it to ensure the floating piston doesn't pull back into the reservoir which would allow too much oil to fill the shock and cause hydraulic lockout?

 

[Fly]

I'll be tearing my shock apart tomorrow or monday, I'll get some measurements for a spacer and have something made. I've got the resources to make a spacer for a lot less than I could buy a second shock.

One question, after pushing the floating piston into the reservoir and purging the air from the passageway between the resi and shock body do you screw on the shaft seal assembly or is it better to drain the excess oil out of the piggyback and screw the end cap on the reservoir and pressurize it to ensure the floating piston doesn't pull back into the reservoir which would allow too much oil to fill the shock and cause hydraulic lockout?

Hmm, its not really possible to drain the oil out of the resi and do it that way, unless you use a seperate bag for each tube.

The thing I have found is this: the IFP isn't actually meant to sit right at the end of the resi tube. Screwing the lower seal assembly in takes up some room, and pushes the IFP back about a 1/4 of the way - to where its meant to sit. This method has always worked for me, but you should cycle the shock on your bike without a spring to check that hydraulic lockout is not occuring. If it is, rather than rebuilding, which is a lengthy process, 5th's have a purge grub-screw on the moulding that connect the resi and main body. If you experience lockout when test-cycling the shock, just compress it to the point of lockout, undo the grub screw a turn (so its still inserted, but not sealed) and force a little oil out as necessary. Remember to close the grub screw before extending the shock again (duh).

The grub screws come with an epoxy dot covering the allen interface from factory. Flick it out with a knife.

 

[top_dog]

Does the donor shock have to have the same length stroke as your good shock?

 

[Fly]

If you want to use the chrome shaft, then yes it necessary to be the same length.

Pm me on farkin though Top Dog - I could probably machine up the necessary spacer and rebuild your shock for you with your chosen valving for about $20.

Red Rocket on farkin btw.

Cheers.

 

[bElliott]

so could you use the grub screw to do an oil change. just oil chang.

btw is it 5wt or 7.5 or ten, and i no shock oil is different than fork oil

 

[Hans]

I thought the springrate on spv shocks was much lower? Or is that still being handled by the air pressure?

 

[Hans]

Spring weight that is.

 

[Dirtbike]

I thought the springrate on spv shocks was much lower? Or is that still being handled by the air pressure?

On 5ths you would run about 50lb less spring rate because the SPV added so much damping. Now, without and SPV.. you should be able to run a normal rate.

 

[bElliott]

anyone got picks of the 5th self mod w/o the metel shims

 

[Kornphlake]

Lessons learned...

1) If you pull the cap off the reservoir and see gouges on the reservoir walls your shock is a paperweight. That would explain why it has felt like there's air in my shock after every rebuild, Progressive was cheating on the rebuild and either didn't open up the reservoir or damaged it during reassembly, or knew about it and just didn't care. This shock has to be the most expensive piece of garbage I've ever owned.

2) Don't wedge a wrench between the reservoir and shock body for leverage to get the body end cap off. I dented the body just enough to make the piston bind about half way through the stroke. What was a piece of junk that at least felt like a pogo stick now feels like a ratchet. What kind of torque should have been on the end cap assembly anyway? I ended unthreading the body from the casting and never did get the end cap assembly out.

Anybody want to buy a 5th element for parts?

 

[Fly]

Lessons learned...

1) If you pull the cap off the reservoir and see gouges on the reservoir walls your shock is a paperweight. That would explain why it has felt like there's air in my shock after every rebuild, Progressive was cheating on the rebuild and either didn't open up the reservoir or damaged it during reassembly, or knew about it and just didn't care. This shock has to be the most expensive piece of garbage I've ever owned.

2) Don't wedge a wrench between the reservoir and shock body for leverage to get the body end cap off. I dented the body just enough to make the piston bind about half way through the stroke. What was a piece of junk that at least felt like a pogo stick now feels like a ratchet. What kind of torque should have been on the end cap assembly anyway? I ended unthreading the body from the casting and never did get the end cap assembly out.

Anybody want to buy a 5th element for parts?

****e, that sucks dude. Next time, make sure you make the wooden blocks I mentioned to clamp all tubes. I feel pretty bad that I helped you screw your shock...what size is it? I might have a spare body tube lying around in your size. Sounds like your resi is messed up pretty bad as well though, so at least now you have an excuse to buy something like a DHX

If people need their shock rebuilt with the mod, providing you supply parts and oil, I'll do it for free, my postal address:

Hugh McCabe
Po box 2154
Toowoomba,
Queensland,
Australia
4350.

To the guy that asked about replacing the oil charge through the grub screw port: no, this is not possible. It is a purge valve only, it would be impossible to fill with oil and purge the air without rebuilding it the way I outlined.

 

[XGrantX]

Interested in doing it if i send it over from new zealand haha. Im probably going to try this mod. Just not sure what will happen, as the shock will be on a sunday which requires 1/3 the low speed compression of normal bikes.

 

[Fly]

Interested in doing it if i send it over from new zealand haha. Im probably going to try this mod. Just not sure what will happen, as the shock will be on a sunday which requires 1/3 the low speed compression of normal bikes.

Yeah mate, I'll do it for you still if you're interested. I could tune the compression shim stack while I'm at it. There is no way the mod can add compression to the Sunday.

 

[Kornphlake]

No worries, once I saw that the piggyback reservoir was pretty much destroyed I didn't care enough to make soft jaws, even if I hadn't destroyed the body I'd still have a useless shock without a good reservior. Honestly the shock is no worse off now than it was 2 days ago, it was garbage before I ever got out my toolbox.

I might contact Progressive and see if I can get a hold of some parts, unless it'll cost less than about $25 it's really not worth it though, I'll just get myself a different shock, 7.875 x 2.25 is a pretty common size, it's used on the SC Heckler and for some years the Bullit, I'll just pick up a used DHX or if I can find the money a DHS and join the Avalanche cult.

 

[jonKranked]

whoa. thats pretty cool. mad props fly! A+ for the ingenuity. I'd love to see how one rides/feels sometime. Would you say this turd polishing came out golden?:biggrin:

oh any chance you could post up some larger pics?

 

[Fly]

whoa. thats pretty cool. mad props fly! A+ for the ingenuity. I'd love to see how one rides/feels sometime. Would you say this turd polishing came out golden?:biggrin:

oh any chance you could post up some larger pics?

Yeah sure, I can oragnise that.

The response has been pretty overwhelming, so I'm no machining up a whole run of parts that will make a donor shock redundant - I'll post up some pictures of the process.

 

[top_dog]

I've got a Swinger 6 way, so all I need is a Metel piston. Any one got one??

 

[Biscuit]

This is sweet! I've got two 5ths that are "backups", one which needs a rebuild anyway.

Could you post the dimensions of the spacer if I keep the 5th piston and shaft. I'll just have a buddy of mine make it.

Any idea where I could get new 5th seals easily? I'll call around later, but simple mail order would be easiest.

I'm actually surprisingly pumped about this. I love tinkering with suspension, and to think I had two I could be safely playing with all this time.

 

[Kornphlake]

I got a response from progressive yesterday, they have no inventory of 5th element spares... I don't know what they would have told me if I'd requested to send my shock in for service, I'm sure if that were the case they'd have baskets of parts lying around.

 

[Biscuit]

Santa cruz is selling 8.75" 5ths for $99 if anyone cares.

 

[bElliott]

im pumped about this too, and if it wasnt myonly shock id be on that

i may do it anyways tho. ill be interested to dsee how the machined parts will work..

ill buy em if they're for sale

 

[Marcolino]

Hi fly and everyone,

Congratulations on the shock mod!

it´s this kind of improvements that make me smile!!!

i am too on the process of tuning a 2005 metel R. (turd i know)

yet no one could tell me it has shims or not. i found out by your post that it has!
"yes!! it´s tunable!!!"

but i have a few doubts that you may clear for me...if you please...

as the metel was unresponsive to small bumps i undid the hex nut (and philips bolt) to release a bit of pressure on the sistem. at that time i thought it was "budget spv platform" and nitrogen pressure would make a diference.

i took a tiny bit of pressure and it made a good diference! now the shock is working perfectly. yet some people told me that without 200 psi of nitrogen the shock would fail...

my question is:

1-Taking of that hex nut what do you find? a rubber membrane?

2-Do you think an spv red valve could be fitted to allow air or nitro refills?

3- there´s no IFP on the metel, right? is the air just thrown inside? when you opened it, did a lot of nitrogen came out (long hiss, big pressure)?


Also could you please place any photos you have at a higher resolution?

if you could snap one at the hole on the metel body, which the hex nut closes it would be great (without the hex) (of course if the shock is still dismantled...)

thank you for posting this!!!

Marcolino


ps- i just put a link to this thread on mtbr forum threads below.

also my adventure on the metel

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=299699

spv devolving- great thread

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=64268

 

[TrumbullHucker]

I too, am very interested in this mod

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Any thoughts on this mod on a 06 morewood izimu?

 

[Joey]

CR1 Engineering makes a kit that seems to be similar in nature. Their website, www.cr1engineering.com, is being updated so no info yet. I saw a little blurb about the kit in the June issue of Decline.

 

[haromtnbiker]

I sent my swinger 4 way to a guy advertising on Pinkbike that he would take the spv out. Well, I got the shock back and the guy was very informative and has answered all my questions. Plus, the shock feels nothing like the stock sticky garbage. This shock now feels alive!

 

[PatBranch]

My 5th in my drawer is really soft and doesn't hold air. Would this mod fix that? Is there a mod to make this lighter? My romic body vs. 5th body (w/o coils) feels like half the weight.

My romic has lost it's plushness, so the rebound is probably blown. It's impossible to talk to romic about fixing it...

 

[Fly]

Hi fly and everyone,

Congratulations on the shock mod!

it´s this kind of improvements that make me smile!!!

i am too on the process of tuning a 2005 metel R. (turd i know)

yet no one could tell me it has shims or not. i found out by your post that it has!
"yes!! it´s tunable!!!"

but i have a few doubts that you may clear for me...if you please...

as the metel was unresponsive to small bumps i undid the hex nut (and philips bolt) to release a bit of pressure on the sistem. at that time i thought it was "budget spv platform" and nitrogen pressure would make a diference.

i took a tiny bit of pressure and it made a good diference! now the shock is working perfectly. yet some people told me that without 200 psi of nitrogen the shock would fail...

my question is:

1-Taking of that hex nut what do you find? a rubber membrane?

2-Do you think an spv red valve could be fitted to allow air or nitro refills?

3- there´s no IFP on the metel, right? is the air just thrown inside? when you opened it, did a lot of nitrogen came out (long hiss, big pressure)?


Also could you please place any photos you have at a higher resolution?

if you could snap one at the hole on the metel body, which the hex nut closes it would be great (without the hex) (of course if the shock is still dismantled...)

thank you for posting this!!!

Marcolino


ps- i just put a link to this thread on mtbr forum threads below.

also my adventure on the metel

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=299699

spv devolving- great thread

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=64268

Sorry guys, I haven't been around to answer a lot of wuestions. I barely come on RM anymore. Anyway...

The metal is by no means a turd shock! Good on you for having a go at tuning it, you can get some great results.

As for higher resolution pictures, I might be able to shoot some, but at the moment I have thrown out all my old manitou metal bodies, so can't really show you pictures of what you need. Further to that, I'm not really keen on pulling my shock apart for new pics until it needs an oil change, but I'll make sure I do take some more next time.

your questions:

1-Yes, taking out the hex bolt there is a rubber membrane

2-A valve may be able to be fitted. You would have to source such a valve and check the fit, I haven't ever tried this mod. I know people that have, however, re-tapped the standard threads in other shocks to accept a pneumatic self-tapping valve.

3- Yes actually, there is in fact an IFP in the manitou metals (and even in the cheapest of shocks) to prevent the oil and gas mixing and foaming. Whoever told you that they need 200psi minimum is probably spurting ****. I don't think that sounds like a reasonable figure. I think so long as you didn't let out too much air your shock should be fine. If cavitation (and thus inconsistency in rebound speed etc) start to occur, then a rebuild may be necessary. But I wouldn't worry about pressure figures until the shock ceases to work.


Trumbullhucker: No more pictures just now, sorry. This is really very easy to do, if you follow the steps. Make sure to check out manitou's detailed rebuild (with pictures) downloadable from their site in pdf form, It will show you the best and easiest method to rebuild your shock (but without showing the mod, obviously). You can mod your 5th element without a 'donor' shock - you simply need to use a spacers to occupy the gap that the SPV would usually fill.

EDIT: and mtbrider, no, this mod unfortunately will not make your shock lighter, nor will it fix an air leak as per what you described. This modifies damping characteristichs only.

anymore wuestions just ask guys.

 

[Marcolino]

hi everyone!

thanks for the reply fly!

the mod has been very sucessful so far! it really seems to be adjusted for my weight. i did noticed a bit more the sound of the oil going thru the valve, but that´s probably because it moves more now that it hasn´t good such high internal pressure.

i try to compare my mod as taking gas out of soda bottles. if you rotate slowly the cap you can take very tiny pressures off. of course if you overdo it... fsssst, there it goes....eheheh

so far so good...it´s gone thru street and stairs, thru xc rides, and finally the rear wheel sticks to the ground!!!

it only lacks a long dh ride... but i suspect it´ll do good anyway...

thanks and good riding!!!

 

[saruti]

what about a 5TH air?
I have one on my MKIII and it feel like #%#%@...
can you make the air 5th better?
thanks

 

[NY_Star]

Dude how am i Supposed to get people to pay for this now? Just Kidding. All of you check out my adds I rebuilld Forks and Shocks.