[Old Man G Funk]

If tons of canucks were flooding across, and significant numbers of them were criminals, Id imagine you'd see a similar outcry.

Criminals? Are significant numbers of Mexican/Central American/South American immigrants criminals?

If you are refering to the fact that they are "illegal" immigrants, then it would stand to reason that a Canadian coming across the border illegally would also be a criminal, right? So, why the inflamed rhetoric?

 

[Tenchiro]

Of course, its typical that you guys try to take the issue this way, but its purely numbers. The vast, vast majority of the folks who illegaly come here are mexicans. There really isnt any reason for masses of canadians to come here, so its a non issue of its own accord. If tons of canucks were flooding across, and significant numbers of them were criminals, Id imagine you'd see a similar outcry.

Hell, look at when tons of Irish were coming over, they spoke english (sort of) and were white, yet faced tons of discrimination. Race is a non issue. You seem to be doing your best to make it one.

You say that the vast majority are Mexican, but if they were able to get accross undetected how can we be sure how many there are? With Canadians it would be even easier to blend in. How do we really know there aren't a few million illegal Canadians in the country?

The irish were discriminated against because they were easily identifiable due to the accent and very, very poor. They were depicted as lazy, stupid and dirty in the press which just made it socially acceptable to discriminate against them. Much like what we are doing to Latino's now.

I feel this is about race, because while very few will actually admit it the average American is very xenophobic. Latino's are simply a socially acceptable and easily identifiable outlet for that fear.

 

[Ciaran]

English isn't the official language of the US (there isn't an official language). Plus, being inclusive isn't such a bad thing, is it?

When was the last time you were in the San Fernando valley? In some parts of LA, in MANY parts of LA it looks EXACTLY like TJ. and it's getting worse too.

Being inclusive is one thing, but many of these people come here and refuse to integrate themselves into our culture.

Now this is just my experience with hispanic immigrants in So Cal. And I am not saying that I am against immigration, just that I wish these people would at least try to integrate into our culture, instead of flatly rejecting it and replacing it with their own. Other places around the nation may have similar or different problems, I can only comment on where I live.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

When was the last time you were in the San Fernando valley? In some parts of LA, in MANY parts of LA it looks EXACTLY like TJ. and it's getting worse too.

Being inclusive is one thing, but many of these people come here and refuse to integrate themselves into our culture.

Now this is just my experience with hispanic immigrants in So Cal. And I am not saying that I am against immigration, just that I wish these people would at least try to integrate into our culture, instead of flatly rejecting it and replacing it with their own. Other places around the nation may have similar or different problems, I can only comment on where I live.

And, what is "our culture" exactly? Is English part of "our culture"? Do you think that only Hispanic immigrants come to this country not knowing English? What about "Little Italy" or Chinatown?

 

[Ciaran]

And, what is "our culture" exactly? Is English part of "our culture"? Do you think that only Hispanic immigrants come to this country not knowing English? What about "Little Italy" or Chinatown?

Again I have to state that I am only speaking about Southern California...

Driving through So Cal I don't see too many signs in Italian, or Chinese, or Arabic, etc... There aren't many Italian, chinese, Arabic, etc., radio stations. But there are a ton in Spanish.

Many hispanic immigrants come to this country not knowing English which to me is no big deal. Many immigrants come to this country and refuse to learn English, which to me is a slap in the face.

My grandfather came to this country from Mexico back in the 1930's, very very poor (I believe it was the 30's, might have been early 40's). He learned to speak English, taught his kids English as well as Spanish, served in our armed forces, and never had to leave or abandon his Mexican heritage. He became a successful small businessman, paid taxes and all that. His kids (my dad and anuts and uncles) went on to become what most people consider solid citizens of this country. If he can do that than any other mexican immigrant can as well. Like I said, I am not against people coming here to make a better life.

And yes, English is indeed a part of our culture.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Again I have to state that I am only speaking about Southern California...

Driving through So Cal I don't see too many signs in Italian, or Chinese, or Arabic, etc... There aren't many Italian, chinese, Arabic, etc., radio stations. But there are a ton in Spanish.

Many hispanic immigrants come to this country not knowing English which to me is no big deal. Many immigrants come to this country and refuse to learn English, which to me is a slap in the face.

My grandfather came to this country from Mexico back in the 1930's, very very poor (I believe it was the 30's, might have been early 40's). He learned to speak English, taught his kids English as well as Spanish, served in our armed forces, and never had to leave or abandon his Mexican heritage. He became a successful small businessman, paid taxes and all that. His kids (my dad and anuts and uncles) went on to become what most people consider solid citizens of this country. If he can do that than any other mexican immigrant can as well. Like I said, I am not against people coming here to make a better life.

And yes, English is indeed a part of our culture.

I've been to areas near Detroit where all the signs are in Arabic and English or just in Arabic. In Chinatown, signs are mostly in Chinese. I don't see it as a problem, nor do I see speaking English as a part of our culture. Many countries have official languages, but we do not. If we don't have an official language, we can't force people to speak it.

How do you know that immigrants are refusing to learn English? Why is it a slap in the face if an immigrant doesn't learn English? It's cool that your grandfather was able to come here, work hard, learn English, etc., but it doesn't degrade what he did for others to come here and not be as successful at learning English or other things.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Criminals? Are significant numbers of Mexican/Central American/South American immigrants criminals?

yes. In fact, DRB posted a link about it in one of the many threads on this topic.

If you are refering to the fact that they are "illegal" immigrants, then it would stand to reason that a Canadian coming across the border illegally would also be a criminal, right? So, why the inflamed rhetoric?

Nope. Nothing to do with it.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Ciaran,
An interesting link (I know it is Wikipedia...don't give me any crap about it )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in_the_United_States

It might be the case that California does have English as an official language, but that would seem to be a pretty modern turn of events. If you want to look at the history of the state, Spanish was accepted since its inception up until the referendum in 1986. Is 20 years of voter referendum declaration of English in a state that has always had a large Hispanic population and has for the most part recognized Spanish part of "our culture"?

 

[BurlyShirley]

You say that the vast majority are Mexican, but if they were able to get accross undetected how can we be sure how many there are?

Ding ding ding! You've identified the problem!

With Canadians it would be even easier to blend in. How do we really know there aren't a few million illegal Canadians in the country?

I realize the point you're trying to make here, but there simply hasnt been any mass exodus of canadians to the states. Its a non issue. Not too many canadians out picking oranges for under the table money.

The irish were discriminated against because they were easily identifiable due to the accent and very, very poor. They were depicted as lazy, stupid and dirty in the press which just made it socially acceptable to discriminate against them. Much like what we are doing to Latino's now.

ding ding ding! You got another point. That immigrants are discriminated against REGARDLESS of race.

I feel this is about race, because while very few will actually admit it the average American is very xenophobic. Latino's are simply a socially acceptable and easily identifiable outlet for that fear.

Xenophobic and racist are completely different things. I like the mexicans, (at least most of the ones Ive met) but it doesnt mean I cant admit there should be some accountability of who in the hell is coming across the borders. Feel free to harp on about the racism though, if it gives you an answer and you wont listen to any other explanation.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

yes. In fact, DRB posted a link about it in one of the many threads on this topic.




Nope. Nothing to do with it.

Any idea which thread?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Any idea which thread?

No. But a quick google search reveals much:

California's prisons are testimony to the growing illegal alien crime wave. Nearly 15 percent of California's state prison inmate population is made up of illegal aliens (approximately 22,000 prisoners). In 1997-98, the state expects to spend a whopping half a billion dollars for incarceration and parole supervision of convicted illegal alien criminals.

http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/1997/97-09-02.html

Edit: hey, that link is even MTB related

 

[Silver]

Ah, I just read the first post again.

How about amending the constitution so that being born in the US does not automatically grant citizenship?

 

[Silver]

No. But a quick google search reveals much:


http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/1997/97-09-02.html

That doesn't tell me anything about the propensity of illegal aliens to commit crimes until you compare it to the percentage of California's population that is illegal.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

No. But a quick google search reveals much:


http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/1997/97-09-02.html

Edit: hey, that link is even MTB related

I bow to your superior google skills.

Are those illegals in jail for being illegals?
Drugs come in from the North too.
We have gangs made up of actual citizens too.

How many of the immigrants are criminals vs. how many immigrants are there? I'd like to see that number so that we can see how statistically significant it is.

 

[BurlyShirley]

That doesn't tell me anything about the propensity of illegal aliens to commit crimes until you compare it to the percentage of California's population that is illegal.

You could easily google that number too, but even if you dont, if 22% of the states prison is full of illegals, that's a significant number

 

[BurlyShirley]

I bow to your superior google skills.

Are those illegals in jail for being illegals?
Drugs come in from the North too.
We have gangs made up of actual citizens too.

How many of the immigrants are criminals vs. how many immigrants are there? I'd like to see that number so that we can see how statistically significant it is.

Illegal aliens arent sent to prison for being illegal.
Again, 22% is a significant number...

 

[surfinguru]

Why isn't anyone addressing the real issues?

1) Immigrants (regardless of heritage) coming to this country need to do so legally. End of story. No new BS worker program nonsense.

2) The US Government needs to enforce existing immigration laws and start fining companies that employee illegal immigrants.

3) Any person that is here illegally and caught needs to be sent home. And please spare me the crap argument of their poor, poor family members that are left behind. If they would have immigrated here LEGALLY it wouldn't be an issue now would it? Can anyone on this board list another country in the world that would not either a) straight up put your ass in jail for being there illegally, or b) kick your ass straight out of the country?

4) If someone wants to immigrate here, great! We welcome you with open arms. However, where the fvck do you get off demanding anything from us while you are here illegally? Maybe, instead of invading our country and making insane demands, try participating in a little social reform in your own country? Oh wait, it's easier to come to the US and make demands from our government.

5) Did you now that Mexico is the 5th largest economy in the world? Why is the US subsidizing their governments corruption? Again, sounds like a little social reform from the population is in order to kick out the clearly more corrupt than our own government officials.

6) Did you also know that 33% of the US prison population consists of illegal immigrants? And that it's estimated that up to 40% of illegals are on welfare? Sounds like they're making one hell of contribution to the US now aren't they?

Bring the flaming replies on.....because I don't give a rats ass. We are supposed to be a nation of laws and when those laws are no longer being enforced, we are no longer a nation.

 

[Silver]

You could easily google that number too

I know I can. I'm also guessing the the writer of your linked article had that data, and it was probably close to 15% or so, so he didn't bother to put it in.

if 22% of the states prison is full of illegals, that's a significant number

No, it means nothing without the population number, actually.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I know I can. I'm also guessing the the writer of your linked article had that data, and it was probably close to 15% or so, so he didn't bother to put it in.



No, it means nothing without the population number, actually.

Again, you try to get off on a useless tangent. All I said was that a significant number of illegals are criminals. People we allow to immigrate here SHOULDNT BE CRIMINALS. 22% is pretty ****ing significicant!

 

[Tenchiro]

Xenophobic and racist are completely different things. I like the mexicans, (at least most of the ones Ive met) but it doesnt mean I cant admit there should be some accountability of who in the hell is coming across the borders. Feel free to harp on about the racism though, if it gives you an answer and you wont listen to any other explanation.

The point I was trying to make is that, these days the average American doesn't care about any illegal immigrants, save for the brown ones. Nobody clammors about the europeans that stay past their visas, or come in through the open border to the north. Not even illegal Asians are subject to this sort of attitude we show to Latinos.

Illegal immigrants aren't the problem here, they are just a symptom of our broken system coupled with the living conditions of other countries when compared to ours.

 

[BurlyShirley]

The point I was trying to make is that, these days the average American doesn't care about any illegal immigrants, save for the brown ones. Nobody clammors about the europeans that stay past their visas, or come in through the open border to the north. Not even illegal Asians are subject to this sort of attitude we show to Latinos.

Because something like 95% of the illegals are latinos, duh! It stands to reason that they'd get 95% of the attention.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Again, you try to get off on a useless tangent. All I said was that a significant number of illegals are criminals. People we allow to immigrate here SHOULDNT BE CRIMINALS. 22% is pretty ****ing significicant!

A legal immigrant could be a criminal too.

 

[BurlyShirley]

A legal immigrant could be a criminal too.

"could be" doesnt quite compare to the 22% of all prisoners that are illegal immigrants now does it?
The point is that if we made people apply for work visas to come, we could deny those with prior backgrounds, and hence, reduce the number of criminals coming across. I found it painful to have to spell that out for you.

 

[Silver]

Again, you try to get off on a useless tangent. All I said was that a significant number of illegals are criminals. People we allow to immigrate here SHOULDNT BE CRIMINALS. 22% is pretty ****ing significicant!

No, it isn't. Let me explain it to you really slow, I knew you growed up in a place where the schooling weren't really too gud.

Without the number of illegals as a percentage of the population, your 15 or 22% doesn't mean anything. If the illegal population is 5% of the population, then it would support your point. If the illegal population is 30%, then it wouldn't support your point. It would also be worth comparing the numbers to legal immigrants.

As is, your number is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[BurlyShirley]

No, it isn't. Let me explain it to you really slow, I knew you growed up in a place where the schooling weren't really too gud.

Without the number of illegals as a percentage of the population, your 15 or 22% doesn't mean anything. If the illegal population is 5% of the population, then it would support your point. If the illegal population is 30%, then it wouldn't support your point. It would also be worth comparing the numbers to legal immigrants.

As is, your number is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Blah blah blah. What it REALLY boils down to is that, that 22% is a 22% that shouldnt be in the US to begin with. Sure, go ahead and compare the numbers to those of legals... Im sure you wont post it because I guarantee the numbers wont support your argument.

Now strike back and say something about how you dont have time, or dont have to support my argument... You simply wont post it for one reason or another.

 

[Silver]

Blah blah blah. What it REALLY boils down to is that, that 22% is a 22% that shouldnt be in the US to begin with. Sure, go ahead and compare the numbers to those of legals... Im sure you wont post it because I guarantee the numbers wont support your argument.

Now strike back and say something about how you dont have time, or dont have to support my argument... You simply wont post it for one reason or another.

You introduced the number, you do the work. What do I look like, a Mexican?

 

[BurlyShirley]

You introduced the number, you do the work. What do I look like, a Mexican?

What'd I tell ya? Works every time

 

[Reactor]

Of course, its typical that you guys try to take the issue this way, but its purely numbers. The vast, vast majority of the folks who illegaly come here are mexicans. There really isnt any reason for masses of canadians to come here, so its a non issue of its own accord. If tons of canucks were flooding across, and significant numbers of them were criminals, Id imagine you'd see a similar outcry.
Hell, look at when tons of Irish were coming over, they spoke english (sort of) and were white, yet faced tons of discrimination. Race is a non issue. You seem to be doing your best to make it one.

The real problem is that Mexico is a broken country and has been one for decades. The country is corrupt, doesn't educate or take care of it's people.

Mexico, is highly racist. In Mexico skin color is very important . If you are black or indian, you are extremely discriminated against. Mexico and Vicente Fox want a quick out, they want to dump the people they have neglected and betrayed on the US, instead of having to invest in their own country.

 

[surfinguru]

Hey silver, try this on for size regarding the % of illegal prisoners vs. the illegal immigrant population.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

 

[Silver]

Hey silver, try this on for size regarding the % of illegal prisoners vs. the illegal immigrant population.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

Newsmax? Thanks, now I need to clear out my brower cache. Notice all the unbacked up numbers? That doesn't help out too much. Neither do the federal prison stats, I'd expect to see more illegal immigrants there becuase a lot of federal prisoners are drug offences. Anyone want to bet there are a disproportionate number of Colombians in federal prison?

Here's another example of sloppy numbers, from what should be a better source (but isn't):

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041206-102115-6766r.htm

"A key finding of the report by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) said the state's already struggling kindergarten-through-12th-grade education system spends $7.7 billion a year on children of illegal aliens, who constitute 15 percent of the student body."

Does that mean the kids are illegal aliens? Not necessarily. If they were born here, they are citizens.

A couple of links: (Page 35 on the PDF)

http://www.cya.ca.gov/ReportsResearch/OffenderInfoServices/Annual/CalPris/CALPRISd2004.pdf

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html

You know who is overrepresented in the prison population? It isn't Hispanics...

 

[surfinguru]

Taken from page 5 of the US Dept. of Justice:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim04.pdf


At midyear 2004, 62% of noncitizen
prisoners held in State facilities;
38% in Federal facilities

On June 30, 2004, 91,789 noncitizens
were in the custody of State or Federal
correctional authorities, up from 90,566
at midyear 2003 (table 6). Overall,
6.5% of State and Federal inmates at
midyear 2004 were not U.S. citizens.
The noncitizen prisoner population
increased between 1998 and 1999,
and since then has remained nearly
stable, increasing about 3.4% between
midyear 1999 and midyear 2004.

At midyear 2004, 34,422 Federal
inmates were noncitizens, representing
over 20% of all prisoners in Federal
custody. California (17,890), Texas
(9,048), New York (8,027), Florida
(4,834), and Arizona (3,924) held over
75% of all noncitizens confined in State
prison. Noncitizen prisoners
accounted for over 10% of the prison
populations of Arizona, New York,
Nevada, and California.

 

[Silver]

Well, that's a bit better. Thanks for digging that up.

10.9%, according to that report. We still don't know how much of that number consists of illegal aliens, but I'm willing to bet it's a very high percentage, so let's just pretend they all are illegal. That's hardly half, or 22% (I still don't know where BS pulled that number out of...) or even 15%.

So, it looks like illegals go to jail in proportion with their population numbers. That hardly supports the claim that they are at a forefront of a crime wave.

You catch that Shirley, or do I need to dumb it down some?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Well, that's a bit better. Thanks for digging that up.

10.9%, according to that report. We still don't know how much of that number consists of illegal aliens, but I'm willing to bet it's a very high percentage, so let's just pretend they all are illegal. That's hardly half, or 22% (I still don't know where BS pulled that number out of...) or even 15%.

So, it looks like illegals go to jail in proportion with their population numbers. That hardly supports the claim that they are at a forefront of a crime wave.

You catch that Shirley, or do I need to dumb it down some?

z

Apparently you cant read, as the #'s I posted are perfectly in line with that report. Why dont you go read that again

 

[cheeselad]

No matter how we attempt to enforce a border, there will always be a desire for people to immigrate here to the US, legally or illegally. And those who come by illegal means will only have to adapt to new enforcement policies. If you build a bigger wall, they'll just make a tunnel underneath it. You post a guard at one spot, they'll sneak through another spot. As long as there is a demand there will always be a bountiful supply of means to cross the border. The only way we can stop immigration is if we do something about what it is immigrants want from this country. As others have mentioned there is no need to protect our borders from Canada because they sure as hell don't want to come down here. What we need to do is build an extensive trail system complete with north shore style ladder bridges and road gaps in Mexico and other Latin American countries. Miles upon miles of endless singletrack, trails that offer challenges for both beginners and advanced riders. Give them the opportunity to experience the same enlightenment we do when we hop on to our trails. Give them much more of it. So much opportunity that they realize that there is nothing here for them. Something has to change over there to make them realize why the f%(k would I want to walk through the desert to go live in that country there's nothing there but urban sprawl. Seriously though what's the point of spending billions and billions of dollars on a program that doesn't deter anyone's desire to travel to El Norte. These people are dying in the desert just to get the chance to make something they couldn't back home. You think a bigger wall or new laws will change that? If the US really has a problem with immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries, then maybe we should all sit down and figure out what it is that the people want. What drives them away from their countries here to the US? Is there a way we can help those countries offer the same things to their people?

 

[Changleen]

No matter how we attempt to enforce a border, there will always be a desire for people to immigrate here to the US, legally or illegally. And those who come by illegal means will only have to adapt to new enforcement policies. If you build a bigger wall, they'll just make a tunnel underneath it. You post a guard at one spot, they'll sneak through another spot. As long as there is a demand there will always be a bountiful supply of means to cross the border. The only way we can stop immigration is if we do something about what it is immigrants want from this country. As others have mentioned there is no need to protect our borders from Canada because they sure as hell don't want to come down here. What we need to do is build an extensive trail system complete with north shore style ladder bridges and road gaps in Mexico and other Latin American countries. Miles upon miles of endless singletrack, trails that offer challenges for both beginners and advanced riders. Give them the opportunity to experience the same enlightenment we do when we hop on to our trails. Give them much more of it. So much opportunity that they realize that there is nothing here for them. Something has to change over there to make them realize why the f%(k would I want to walk through the desert to go live in that country there's nothing there but urban sprawl. Seriously though what's the point of spending billions and billions of dollars on a program that doesn't deter anyone's desire to travel to El Norte. These people are dying in the desert just to get the chance to make something they couldn't back home. You think a bigger wall or new laws will change that? If the US really has a problem with immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries, then maybe we should all sit down and figure out what it is that the people want. What drives them away from their countries here to the US? Is there a way we can help those countries offer the same things to their people?

George Bush doesn't do altruism. He preferes blame and military 'solutions'.

 

[richcreek]

<snip> Arrest illegals and ship back to Mexico/Canada and impose sanctions against Mexico for shipping their poor into America.

i dont really think that canada is that much of a problem. the majority of immagrants are mexicans. the only problem the us has with canada is the drug smuggling from there. that is not as bad as 11-18 million illegal immagrants is a BIG problem. think about it this way, you pay taxes, they dont, some of them are on welfare, you are paying for them!

 

[jimmydean]

The real problem is that Mexico is a broken country and has been one for decades. The country is corrupt, doesn't educate or take care of it's people.

Mexico, is highly racist. In Mexico skin color is very important . If you are black or indian, you are extremely discriminated against. Mexico and Vicente Fox want a quick out, they want to dump the people they have neglected and betrayed on the US, instead of having to invest in their own country.

That sounds a lot like the US at times. No child left behind comes to mind.

 

[Alpha Kenny Body]

i dont really think that canada is that much of a problem. the majority of immagrants are mexicans. the only problem the us has with canada is the drug smuggling from there. that is not as bad as 11-18 million illegal immagrants is a BIG problem. think about it this way, you pay taxes, they dont, some of them are on welfare, you are paying for them!

Yep but most of them build their houses, clean their yards, grow their vegetables... whats different from other workers??? latin immigrants will work for cents a day, the'll work more hours and not all of them want to use welfare because they're scared police might catch them...

 

[LordOpie]

...

you didn't have to respond to his ignorant post. And I don't mean ignorant maliciously, just factually.

You live in Mexico, yeah? What's the thinking of people there with regards to what's up here?

 

[Transcend]

I think the ignorant, lazy, xenophobic americans who make all the noise are more problematic than the immigrants.

Note - this isn't saying that all american's are this way, but those who are, are cause more problems in society than illegal immigrants.