[sanjuro]

IF your life sucks come here I DO NOT CARE but learn the language. Would you move to france and expect to get by cause of the government if you didn't speek french?

Actually, France has a large immigrant population (although it is partly due to the amount of countries they have invaded over the centuries). There is also a tradition of bilingualism in France, due their proximity to Germany, England, France, Spain, and Africa.

The French have a bad reputation for rudeness is all they hate is Ugly Stupid Americans. Do you know any?

 

[reflux]

I don't think 99% of the economy int his state is based on fruit, 2nd if the economy is based on something illegal then maybe we need to change it.

Think about all that extra land in CA that isn't the Bay Area, LA, OC, and San Diego. Do you know what's done there? Ag, and lots of it. Ag brings in billions into the state, far from 99% of the economy, but not nearly the black spot that you think it is.

I don't have any problem paying say even twice as much for an apple if it has been grown and picked by an ENGLISH speaker

On a similar concept, do you remember a few years ago when Wal-Mart started a "Made and Produced by Americans" product program? It gave consumers the opportunity to pay a little extra knowing that they were supporting Americans and American jobs. Guess what? WM stopped the program because consumers didn't care, it's all about the lowest price in the end.

 

[konabiker]

I don't think 99% of the economy int his state is based on fruit, 2nd if the economy is based on something illegal then maybe we need to change it. Wate! an illegal economy sounds like Columbia. I don't have any problem paying say even twice as much for an apple if it has been grown and picked by an ENGLISH speaker

I never said 99% of our economy comes from them, maybe you should learn how to read and go back to that post. I find it funny, you talk about english speakers when most of the mexican people have better writing skills than you...
And its not only fruit, its all the other dirty jobs that we americans are to good for

 

[mack]

can i buy one on ebay, id like to frame it

edit: regardless of any of your views, mexicans jumping the border is illegal, plain and simple, thats why it needs to stop.even if it will cost california allot of money w/o cheap labor, illegal immigration needs to stop.

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

I don't have any problem paying say even twice as much for an apple if it has been grown and picked by an ENGLISH speaker

New sig

 

[TheMontashu]

can i buy one on ebay, id like to frame it

edit: regardless of any of your views, mexicans jumping the border is illegal, plain and simple, thats why it needs to stop.even if it will cost california allot of money w/o cheap labor, illegal immigration needs to stop.

thank you for saying that, that is my point

 

[valve bouncer]

thank you for saying that, that is my point

So in your view is illegal immigration caused more by push or by pull factors?

 

[TheMontashu]

So in your view is illegal immigration caused more by push or by pull factors?

maybe?

 

[valve bouncer]

maybe?

Bwahahahahaha. You are really dumb. Immigration is caused solely by push or pull factors, usually a combination of the two. In this case which do you think is most prevalent?

 

[lovebunny]

montashu. you do you live in cali? especially socal? if you did you would understand how overpriced EVRYTHING is here. its not just fruit and things. you would be suprised w/ how much they do here. if they all left prices would skyrocket and calis economy would go in the ****ter. has anyone seen a day without a mexican? i havent seen it but i hear it gives really good insight into how it would be w/out the mexicans. have a lil sympathy. living as close to the border as san diego is there things in the news about how ****ed up mexico is evryday. i dont blame them for wanting to come over here.

 

[TheMontashu]

I live in the bay aria wich is one of the most expencive arias in the country

 

[caputo1989]

There bringing in poverty and they don't pay taxes

Damn Streight.

 

[mack]

I live in the bay aria wich is one of the most expencive arias in the country

Your "Bay Area" needs to throw more money at education...

i dont care, it is still illegal. If california is worried then the US should close the border but allow for more mexicans to leegally enter, and so we can filter out the criminals and all the drug trafficing that goes through the pious (sp?) border. I am a bush supporer but in my opinion hes been a lame duck on this issue.

 

[TheMontashu]

Your "Bay Area" needs to throw more money at education....

you dont have to go to school here

i dont care, it is still illegal. If california is worried then the US should close the border but allow for more mexicans to leegally enter, and so we can filter out the criminals and all the drug trafficing that goes through the pious (sp?) border. I am a bush supporer but in my opinion hes been a lame duck on this issue.

well here in CA we seem to like crime(look at our gun laws)

 

[valve bouncer]

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question Montashu. I kind of suspect you don't have one as you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Having no clue seems to be a theme in all your posts actually.

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

Damn Streight.

Is it just the people who can't spell that don't like mexicans?

 

[Fonzie18]

Blah, Blah, Ignorant blabber, bad grammar, spelling error, Blah

Sorry to say but I find your comments ignorant and with no meaning whatsoever. Take a history lesson, get some class, maybe even strive a bit to make an intelligent comment once in awhile.
No use really in arguing with ignorance, but unfortunately in this country ignorance and misinformation runs rampant. Which of course brings us to the first post in this thread?

The Media loves a good story, and especially loves a good story which will stir public opinion.
This is a good example: Media sees that the Mexican Government is publishing a "comic book" giving would be illegal immigrants instructions on how to enter this country illegally. Media sees a good opportunity to catch the public's eye and general interest, so they run stories on this "comic book." I saw plenty of these stories on the local as well as National news, and of course to the average person, it would seem that the Mexican government was promoting and encouraging illegal immigration. Actually, judging by the response I've seen, most people do assume that the Mexican government is encouraging the illegal immigration of its citizens.
I decided to look into the subject.
Oh, before I say this, here’s a little self-description:
-I'm Mexican (My Grandparents and Parents were born in the U.S, does that make me a born and bred American? )
-I'm fluent in Spanish and English
-I work in a Business environment that deals largely with an international client base (Yes, Mexicans are about 60% of our client-base).
-I have traveled extensively in Mexico as well as the U.S and abroad. I am aware of the social and political situation in that country (Mexico).

Having read the "Oh geez - and a comic book no less for the less-than-literate...." it is obvious to me that the premonitions and opinions that people have made are misguided. The pamphlet in fact describes the dangers of crossing the border illegally and explains the consequences that come with this decision. It would take too much space to describe and translate it page for page but believe me it does not encourage the illegal migration of the Mexican people. It always discourages me to see and hear people who are so misinformed and biased that they fail to see the other side, they are quick to discriminate. What would you do if you had no food to feed your family, and your government did nothing for you but made things worse? Would you risk your life?

Here's a small translation of the first page:
"Unfortunately, in this practice (Illegal immigration) we see many cases of Mexican nationals that intend on crossing the border without the necessary documentation, trough dangerous terrain that yield high risks. If you choose to take the risk this pamphlet is to help you survive the treacherous passage."

-ALFONSO GARCIA

 

[Jr_Bullit]

After reading this thread I started and having a good chuckle at the rather amusing posts of a few....

I don't really have a problem with illegal immigration, or immigration in general. What sucks is when people choose to immigrate here, but yet don't want to be an american.

For example - Fonzie - you said "I'm Mexican" - born and bred of parents and grandparents born here in the US. To me, that's a confusing statement. Is your heritage Mexican? Or were you actually born in Mexico and raised there, and only now are pursuing life in the US but retaining your status as a Mexican citizen?

I take on my grandfather's view - who immigrated here during WWII from the Czech Republic. My culture is Eastern European...so what...I'm an American. I went to US schools, I have a diploma earned in the US, my passport declares my citizenship. If I choose to live somewhere else and earn my citizenship elsewhere, then that is what I will claim to be and my personal heritage would then be that of the US.

Why, please explain, do people come here and yet refuse to actually acknowledge themselves as americans? Why must you be "chinese-american"? Why not just american? I don't really get it? Should I advertise myself to the world as a czech-american just because that's the more predominant bloodline and I'm not a mutt going back to the days of plymouth rock?

 

[ummbikes]

Having read the "Oh geez - and a comic book no less for the less-than-literate...." it is obvious to me that the premonitions and opinions that people have made are misguided. The pamphlet in fact describes the dangers of crossing the border illegally and explains the consequences that come with this decision. It would take too much space to describe and translate it page for page but believe me it does not encourage the illegal migration of the Mexican people. It always discourages me to see and hear people who are so misinformed and biased that they fail to see the other side, they are quick to discriminate. What would you do if you had no food to feed your family, and your government did nothing for you but made things worse? Would you risk your life?
-ALFONSO GARCIA

Bottom line is this, undocument Mexican citizens are flesh and blood human beings. We as a nation graciously have donated millions of dollars to aid in tsunami relief efforts; yet many of these same noble and generous people who gave money to help out half way around the world are quite content to complain about Mexican immigration. Am I to assume that a Mexican is less worthy of the generosity of America than someone from Indonesia? Obviously the answer is no.

It is easy to brush aside the fact that in our own nation a group of people are being brushed aside like an unwanted pet for reasons that I can only equate to greed, bigotry and hatred.

What is it about this issue that turns normally generous caring people into selfish xenophobes?

 

[Toshi]

jr_bullit, have you read "jihad vs. mcworld"? i'm plowing through it now, and the force of jihad-as-described-by-mr.-barber is the entity to which he ascribes the need to identify as Mexican, Chinese-American, African-American (or Serb or Croat for that matter).

 

[ummbikes]

Should I advertise myself to the world as a czech-american just because that's the more predominant bloodline and I'm not a mutt going back to the days of plymouth rock?

Should you?

Well why not?

The Czech people have some history and worth no? Why not be proud of where it is your family came from and by adding the -American to the description by proud of where you family is now?

I have observed many people who share your sentiment about hypenated descriptions of Americanism and I wonder why it really bothers them.

Does your idea of what it means to be American limit one from noting where it is their people came from? Or do all Americans really need to be the same in ideology? Must we shed the European, Asian, Central American parts of our selves from our identity to be American?

 

[ummbikes]

jr_bullit, have you read "jihad vs. mcworld"? i'm plowing through it now, and the force of jihad-as-described-by-mr.-barber is the entity to which he ascribes the need to identify as Mexican, Chinese-American, African-American (or Serb or Croat for that matter).

Toshi, could you explain a little more about what Barber's contention is? I'm a little confused, is he saying that by noting that a person is not from Western Europe and yet American they are not as guilty as a Westen European derived American in the eyes of a judging world?

 

[Toshi]

Toshi, could you explain a little more about what Barber's contention is? I'm a little confused, is he saying that by noting that a person is not from Western Europe and yet American they are not as guilty as a Westen European derived American in the eyes of a judging world?

his thesis as i understand it:

the balkanization and strife of the last 100 years is a result of the two forces, jihad and mcworld. jihad is fundamentalism and tribalism, and is an outgrowth of multiculturalism taken too far. examples of jihad can be seen in all of the tribal or subnational conflicts such as rwanda, yugoslavia, iraq. mcworld is the force of homogenizing, secular corporations and media that transcend national boundaries. (we all drink the same coke.) both forces work to bring about anarchy: jihad through its disregard for property and life, mcworld through its relentless marginalization of governments as simple hindrances to its ideal market of individual consumers, each unencumbered by nationalism and "free" to choose the products they want.

as relates to this thread the author notes that there are something like 6000 languages currently in use. many subgroups (see rwanda, etc. above) seem keen to renounce their national identity in favor of a more limited, tribal kinship -- not to say that all such subgroups slaughter their neighbors as in rwanda -- and the ultimate reach of this process might be that we end up with 6000 mini "nations". feudalism, here we come again!

 

[Silver]

examples of jihad can be seen in all of the tribal or subnational conflicts such as rwanda, yugoslavia, iraq. mcworld is the force of homogenizing, secular corporations and media that transcend national boundaries. (we all drink the same coke.)

2 points about that:

1) We don't all drink the same Coke. In civilized countries, Coke has sugar in it, not high fructose corn syrup.

2) More seriously, I think you can account for Rwanda, Iraq, and Yugoslavia but looking at the diverse groups of peoples and tribes that got forcibly tossed together under one banner. After ill advised colonialism, totalitarianism is sometimes the only thing that holds things together.

 

[Toshi]

ok, be picky about coke. or red bull. same brand at least if not the same formula.

the author does account for the influence of colonialism. here's a long paragraph or three that's relevant:

President Woodrow Wilson's own secretary of state, Robert L. Lansing, failed to share his chief's enthusiasm for the idea [of self-determination], asking would not [it] "breed discontent, disorder and rebellion? ... It will raise hopes which can never be realized. It will, I fear, cost thousands of lives." [...]

... Today there is no tribe, no faction or splinter group or neighborhood gang, that does not aspire to self-determination. "Don't dis me!" shouts the gansta rapper, "I gotta get some respect." The futile Owen-Vance map for the partition of Bosnia, multiplying boundaries as it narrowed the compass of ethnic communities, finally seemed to give respectability to a gang logic, trying to write into law the absurdity of treating nearly every city block as a nation, almost every housing unit a potential sovereign. In other times, this bankrupt political arrangement, sanctioned for a considerable time by a desperate United Nations Security Council, would carry the name anarchy.

.. Self-determination has at times amounted to little more than other-extermination. Colonial masters did still worse in their time, drawing arbitrary lines across maps they could not read with consequences still being endured throughout the ex-colonial world, above all in Africa and the Middle East. Jihad is then a rabid response to colonialism and imperialism and their economic children, capitalism and modernity; it is diversity run amok, multiculturalism turned cancerous so that the cells keep dividing long after their division has ceased to serve the healthy corpus.

i typed that out by hand so y'all had better read it

 

[Silver]

Oh, ok. That makes more sense than blaming it on multiculturalism

Speaking as a person who has CTS, I appreciate the typing effort!

 

[ummbikes]

I must read the book. Do you get a kick back from Amazon Toshi?

 

[Toshi]

hmm, that's a good idea. i should sign up to be an amazon.com affiliate...

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Should you?

Well why not?

The Czech people have some history and worth no? Why not be proud of where it is your family came from and by adding the -American to the description by proud of where you family is now?

I have observed many people who share your sentiment about hypenated descriptions of Americanism and I wonder why it really bothers them.

Does your idea of what it means to be American limit one from noting where it is their people came from? Or do all Americans really need to be the same in ideology? Must we shed the European, Asian, Central American parts of our selves from our identity to be American?

No one is saying I'm not proud of my heritage - where on earth did you get that? But it's my "HERITAGE" it's not what I am, and it's not what my passport says, it's not a skin color, or something you could identify by looking at me. It makes up a part of who I am and my belief system, but that doesn't make me less of an american.

It gets really tiresome to hear someone (for example) identify themselves as Japanese - when they've never been there, never spoke language, and in fact, their family has lived in the US for four or five generations at this point. It's their heritage that is Japanese, but it's not their nationality - so why still identify as a Japanese person? Do you think, if you went to Japan, they would consider you Japanese? I pick this in particular, because I lived there, spoke the language, learned the culture, and in a lot of ways was shaped by my experiences there - but I don't claim to suddenly "be" Japanese - even though much of the culture I was introduced to there makes sense to me and is visible in my every day life.

But - after traveling some abroad, the one thing that I came back to the US with was pride in my nation and who I was - there's a lot of **** I'd like to see changed, and a lot of things about our nation that isn't so great - but so what - I'm a citizen here and that's what I am.

So I get confused and frustrated with people who are more than happy to take advantage of all the benefits of being an american, yet continue to deny that's what they are, and instead claim to be something totally other - without having even ever been there.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Toshi - I'll be looking into getting my hands on that book as well. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Silver]

It gets really tiresome to hear someone (for example) identify themselves as Japanese - when they've never been there, never spoke language, and in fact, their family has lived in the US for four or five generations at this point. It's their heritage that is Japanese, but it's not their nationality - so why still identify as a Japanese person?

Thinking out loud here...mabye part of it is because they are a visible minority...so no matter how American they feel, it's a matter of time before someone calls them Japanese.

If you put yourself, Toshi, and me in a lineup, it's going to be fairly obvious that Toshi has more Asian heritage than us, right? You and I would probably be called American, because we both "look" American. It's pretty hard to guess that all four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands just by looking at me.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Thinking out loud here...mabye part of it is because they are a visible minority...so no matter how American they feel, it's a matter of time before someone calls them Japanese.

If you put yourself, Toshi, and me in a lineup, it's going to be fairly obvious that Toshi has more Asian heritage than us, right? You and I would probably be called American, because we both "look" American. It's pretty hard to guess that all four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands just by looking at me.

You are correct, of course, that it's an unfortunate part of our "american" culture to categorize individuals based on their appearance. However, are you saying that your first impression of someone with tanned skin, and almond shaped eyes is that they are not American? (not you specifically - hypothetical question)

Seriously, why not give everyone the benefit of the doubt that we're all here on equal footing - everyone has a different background, heritage, and life experiences - so in that we're all unique and that should be respected as part of your culture and world views...but that doesn't make a person less or more of an american. Annnd, at the same time, wouldn't it help the "prejudging" situation that seems to occur quite a bit, if everyone simply identified themselves as what they are - I'm an american...not chinese American, not African-American - unless of course you hold nationality in two individual nations...

 

[fluff]

Seriously, why not give everyone the benefit of the doubt that we're all here on equal footing - everyone has a different background, heritage, and life experiences - so in that we're all unique and that should be respected as part of your culture and world views...but that doesn't make a person less or more of an american.

Surely you are not suggesting that anyone who is not American is less than equal to one who is?

 

[BigHit-Maniac]

Mexican immigrants aren't that bad.

The only "types" that I despise are the ones with 10 kids living on Wellfare taking all my hard-earned dollars.

I'll mow my own lawn, wash my own clothes, and repair my own house while I'm at it too.

If they want to WORK for their kids, and support their families.. that's one thing... but to come in, get on our governmental programs, and expect ME to pay for them... NO thank you.

 

[Silver]

You are correct, of course, that it's an unfortunate part of our "american" culture to categorize individuals based on their appearance. However, are you saying that your first impression of someone with tanned skin, and almond shaped eyes is that they are not American? (not you specifically - hypothetical question)

Not American culture specifically, but rather human nature.

I don't think the impression is not American, specifically, but more along the lines of "The Asian Guy" and "The Black Guy" and even (slightly less superficially, until you hear an accent) "The Eastern European Guy" and "The British Guy". It's an easy to use label, and for a lot of people it might even serve as nothing more sinister than a memory device.

 

[Fonzie18]

Mexican immigrants aren't that bad.

The only "types" that I despise are the ones with 10 kids living on Wellfare taking all my hard-earned dollars.

I'll mow my own lawn, wash my own clothes, and repair my own house while I'm at it too.

If they want to WORK for their kids, and support their families.. that's one thing... but to come in, get on our governmental programs, and expect ME to pay for them... NO thank you.

More useless blabber, but a little watered down. Obviously no need to argue.

 

[Fonzie18]

After reading this thread I started and having a good chuckle at the rather amusing posts of a few....

I don't really have a problem with illegal immigration, or immigration in general. What sucks is when people choose to immigrate here, but yet don't want to be an american.

For example - Fonzie - you said "I'm Mexican" - born and bred of parents and grandparents born here in the US. To me, that's a confusing statement. Is your heritage Mexican? Or were you actually born in Mexico and raised there, and only now are pursuing life in the US but retaining your status as a Mexican citizen?

I take on my grandfather's view - who immigrated here during WWII from the Czech Republic. My culture is Eastern European...so what...I'm an American. I went to US schools, I have a diploma earned in the US, my passport declares my citizenship. If I choose to live somewhere else and earn my citizenship elsewhere, then that is what I will claim to be and my personal heritage would then be that of the US.

Why, please explain, do people come here and yet refuse to actually acknowledge themselves as americans? Why must you be "chinese-american"? Why not just american? I don't really get it? Should I advertise myself to the world as a czech-american just because that's the more predominant bloodline and I'm not a mutt going back to the days of plymouth rock?

Even though this is getting extremely off topic I feel intrigued to reply. Why would I claim to be Mexican? Perhaps it takes a person who is not of light skin and hair tone to understand (as mentioned earlier). Even though I speak English flawlessly and do not have 10 brothers or sisters, I have experienced discrimination and racial "labeling". My whole life I have been called Mexican, not only by my peers but by society. So when I say that I am Mexican I say it as what I am, it's not too hard to figure out.

Unfortunately, like so many threads this one has gone far off topic, I would love to elaborate on ethnicity and race, but that is not what we are talking about here. Maybe we should look at the first post again:

Oh geez - and a comic book no less for the less-than-literate....

What's next? A superhighway that has flames to dodge or something along the way for the pretense of it being a scary and bad thing to do? Oh, this is a fragment by the way.

Which in my opinion is a bit harsh and ignorant, No? Nothing new for me, everytime I ride past the "Peligro" signs on the highway showing a family crossing the freeway I essentially, get the same response from an ignorant 13 year old: "Hey ALF, what's your family doing crossing the freeway?" Or the occasional: "Look at that yellow sign, it shows the targets/road kill” Would it make any difference if I claimed myself American?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Mexican immigrants aren't that bad.

The only "types" that I despise are the ones with 10 kids living on Wellfare taking all my hard-earned dollars.

I'll mow my own lawn, wash my own clothes, and repair my own house while I'm at it too.

If they want to WORK for their kids, and support their families.. that's one thing... but to come in, get on our governmental programs, and expect ME to pay for them... NO thank you.

that is not right.

welfare in the US is only for US citizens.
there is no way an mexican inmigrant, legal or illegal, can receive welfare as long as he is not a US citizen, which takes at least 5 years. even then, i´ve never met one of those "mexican inmigrant welfare recipient" you talk about.

there is too much ignorance and bigotry in your post.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Surely you are not suggesting that anyone who is not American is less than equal to one who is?

Uhhm....no...where the hell did you read that? or are you simply skimming and pulling out fun sentences to pick at rather than taking the sentence in context with the whole conversation?

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Even though this is getting extremely off topic I feel intrigued to reply. Why would I claim to be Mexican? Perhaps it takes a person who is not of light skin and hair tone to understand (as mentioned earlier). Even though I speak English flawlessly and do not have 10 brothers or sisters, I have experienced discrimination and racial "labeling". My whole life I have been called Mexican, not only by my peers but by society. So when I say that I am Mexican I say it as what I am, it's not too hard to figure out.

Unfortunately, like so many threads this one has gone far off topic, I would love to elaborate on ethnicity and race, but that is not what we are talking about here. Maybe we should look at the first post again:

Which in my opinion is a bit harsh and ignorant, No? Nothing new for me, everytime I ride past the "Peligro" signs on the highway showing a family crossing the freeway I essentially, get the same response from an ignorant 13 year old: "Hey ALF, what's your family doing crossing the freeway?" Or the occasional: "Look at that yellow sign, it shows the targets/road kill” Would it make any difference if I claimed myself American?

Well...I'll be honest that I live in an area where we don't see as much of the illegal immigrants - on the east side of the state they do for picking season, but not so much over here, and I don't really question who's here why and how. Forgive me for being simply confused and somewhat defensive of the title american - it's one I assign to anyone, regardless of race or skin color, until you tell me different, if you're here and working then my first assumption is simply that.

Nor, as you say, have I ever been in a situation where I would be identified as something other than white...but I have attended high schools where "white" kids were a quarter of the student population, not the majority. And I did graduate high school in Japan, where I was labeled fat gaijin and was mostly amusement to the "Japanese". And what I found more interesting there, was how quickly one could be ostracized for having a slighlty differently shaped face marking you as not "full" Japanese - but maybe a mix between Korean...

However, in my life experiences, most folks seem to take their status as an American for granted and they tend to lower it on their self-identification chart. You still haven't clarified - are you actually Mexican? If so then great, or are you an American with a Mexican heritage? Why would you rather identify yourself as something other than American. I still don't get it, if that's what your citizenship is.

Back on the other topic - illegal immigration - I don't have an opinion one way or another about it. We need the workers, and they need a better life. So far it seems an okay fit.