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how to negotiate a raise, and the ethics of leverage

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,364
159
Lima, Peru, Peru
so, i´ve been working almost 5 years for a large company, which is a worldwide leader for its sector, although locally we are like 3rd/4th, due to lousy management basically. (my division seems, literally, to be taken from a dilbert episode).

i´ve been promoted twice (plus one "unofficial" promotion, where i was given a whole lot more responsabilities for a little less money when i switched departments), thing is, i feel grossly underpaid for the position and title, considering i do a lot of different things, from managing a small group of people, to sales projections, costs control and overseas presentations on behalf of the company (as a "country manager", when i do not have the title).

so, i started sniffing around for jobs in my industry 7 days ago. within 5 days, i was called by a headhunter asking for my $$$ requirements, and had another job interview with a company (small local company, which is like the 8th biggest player).

i asked for twice what i making here. got a call today, saying they appreciate the time i took to interview with them, and while i fit the profile for the position, am out of their budget.
they budget for the position is 30% more of what i make here (plus i get the "manager" title). i replied asking if they could raise their budget to 160% of my current salary. the general manager at the other place said, he would have to ask the owners for that, and would get back to me in a few days.

now, i´d go from very stable, position in a 500+ employee (in the local branch) corporation to a 30 years old, family owned company with 40 employees; and for this risk, i consider twice the salary a good starting point.

now, it seems my market value is at least 30% more of what am making here..... so maybe, considering i will not get a 100% raise, it be smarter to use the other´s company offer (30%+ more, and maybe even 40-60%) to leverage a raise in my company.

now the question is.... how to approach the boss to leverage a raise?

to complicate things, i have a business meeting in brazil in july, where i will meet all the country managers from south america, and a few japanese big suits. now, this is a meeting i´d pretty much like to attend, as i would network with all the country managers from the region, which would prove extremely useful in the next few years..... so, any job changes, would, ideally, be made after the end of july.

leverage now for 50% more (and a better schedule and title), or wait a few weeks for more offers, and assuming i get a better one, then leverage when i do? or take the position?
would it hurt me to leave the company 2 weeks after the bi-annual country manager´s meeting in brazil? (heck, i do not have the title, but i will go as country manager because there is nobody else at my company, not even my boss, with enough knowledge to go).
 
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MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
3,430
0
Charlotte, NC
Once you make that move you will be the first to be asked to leave if things ever go south. It is never a good idea to give your company an ultimatem. The bottom line is, if you can make more money some where else go do it.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,663
385
Warsaw :/
To be honest if you say your company is like a dilbert episode why not try a new one? They pay more and there is a potential for better work atmosphere. Also do you think the company can expand in the coming years? If yes your salary could grow much faster than it would in your current job. Also looking at my small experience as well as my parents experience at verious managerial stages it is usually less stressful to work at a higher position in a smaller company. The atmosphere in most cases is better and there are less - corporate standars - which are almost always the worst thing imaginable.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
29,915
2,699
Portland, OR
I say give the new place a shot. If you don't piss anyone off before leaving, you could return later (for more money, likely).
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,364
159
Lima, Peru, Peru
well, it seems am not in such a hard position anymore.

over the last few days, i was contacted twice by a head hunter. had an interview a couple hours ago with a third company.
They are sending me to talk to the general manager of a very large company (3000+ employees, vs 500+ my current company has) this thursday.
They say they need to fill the position as soon as possible, and the offer is for almost twice my current salary. Currently i work for Toyota (forklifts), and I would be moving to a company which represents both Caterpillar/Kenworth.
on the other side, am awaiting for reply from Siemens, and i think i have a good shot at getting an interview...

This thursday, we will see... ill cross my fingers.... it seems am almost there. on a semi-related funny fact. my bike has already paid for itself. one of my riding buddies owns 15 kenworth trucks and has a very good relationship with cat/kenworth of Peru. He said he would contact the GM and put in a few good words for me, and told me to ask him for help i need a bit more leverage. that contact alone, is worth the price of by dh bike!
 

Jim Mac

MAKE ENDURO GREAT AGAIN
May 21, 2004
6,364
281
the middle east of NY
Within any company, I have simply found that if I say that I want $x, with no drama, threats or demands, i get it.
This is classic business communication, as opposed to interpersonal communication.

It looks like this:
1. I want you to do_________________.
2. This is important because ____________________ (cite your evidence).
3. Expand on 1-3 points of evidence.
4. Restate what you want.

It's also good to know who your audience is to best shape your message. Look up the ideas of game theory, VALS and Myers-Briggs if you really want to prep for this conversation.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
29,915
2,699
Portland, OR
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/03/26/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer

I read another article about this earlier, not sure this is the same one, but it feels like it rings true.
I have always felt this way. If you know what you are worth or feel devalued by your current situation, then go somewhere that values you. I don't like having to ask for a raise. I feel like if I have earned it and it is available, I should be offered it without asking.

<edit> I also get wicked bored at work (look at my post count :rofl: )
 

Austin Bike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 26, 2003
1,559
0
Duh, Austin
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/03/26/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer

I read another article about this earlier, not sure this is the same one, but it feels like it rings true.
That is 1000% correct. Never take a counteroffer. The first thing that you have to decide before you talk to anyone is are you going to leave or stay. Once you have decided to leave there should not be anything to keep you there. Unless there is a psycho boss that suddenly leaves, once you have activated the launch sequence the rocket needs to leave the pad.
 

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,417
1
Oz
You want leverage? Okay, try this plan:

1. Walk in with this in your hand:


2. Scream "Y U NO GIVE RAISE!!!"

3. Profit.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,364
159
Lima, Peru, Peru
Unless there is a psycho boss that suddenly leaves, once you have activated the launch sequence the rocket needs to leave the pad.
i have my fingers on the switch waiting to activate the launch sequence.

i have 2 job interviews on monday. for caterpillar in the morning, and for kenworth in the afternoon.
hopefully one of them goes thru.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
14,566
1,574
Colorado
wait until you have a confirmed acceptance contract signed. Leave no openings for issues.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,364
159
Lima, Peru, Peru
wait until you have a confirmed acceptance contract signed. Leave no openings for issues.
good thinking. will do that. its been like 5 years since i interviewed for the last time!..

currently, i have a firm offer for 30% more at a small (50-60 people) company, and i have until next week to take it.

But i wont leave Toyota for a small family-owned company, not for 30% more... I decided not to leverage my boss, and now am actively looking for jorbs..... seems i am grossly underpaid, considering what i have seen in the market....

kenworth offers 80% more of my current salary, plus the title am looking for. i have already interviewed with them 2 days ago, passed all the tests and stuff. on monday, i get to talk to the general manager to see if I get a firm offer or not.

i talked over the phone with caterpillar a couple days ago, and was asked to come for an interview on monday am (before my interview with kenworth), but i do not know the salary yet.....

we´ll see..
 
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canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
10,148
6,139
Canaderp
While I have no input on the subject, I just want to say that this thread is amazing. So much good advice that I am absorbing. Thanks.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
1,069
4
PA
good thinking. will do that. its been like 5 years since i interviewed for the last time!..

currently, i have a firm offer for 30% more at a small (50-60 people) company, and i have until next week to take it.

But i wont leave Toyota for a small family-owned company, not for 30% more... I decided not to leverage my boss, and now am actively looking for jorbs..... seems i am grossly underpaid, considering what i have seen in the market....

kenworth offers 80% more of my current salary, plus the title am looking for. i have already interviewed with them 2 days ago, passed all the tests and stuff. on monday, i get to talk to the general manager to see if I get a firm offer or not.

i talked over the phone with caterpillar a couple days ago, and was asked to come for an interview on monday am (before my interview with kenworth), but i do not know the salary yet.....

we´ll see..

Are you taking personal days to attend these interviews? Or are they done after hrs? I just had an interview with a company that wanted to meet after hours ( early evening ) and the second one could be around the same time. Just curious.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,364
159
Lima, Peru, Peru
Are you taking personal days to attend these interviews? Or are they done after hrs? I just had an interview with a company that wanted to meet after hours ( early evening ) and the second one could be around the same time. Just curious.
well, my company owes me about 60 or 70 (i have lost count really, no wonder) vacation days... so i´ve started taking a few days off...

i took an afternoon off for an interview. another interview was at early evening.... and am taking next monday off, in order to attend 3 interviews during the day (9am, 1pm, and 5pm).
 

Austin Bike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 26, 2003
1,559
0
Duh, Austin
While I have no input on the subject, I just want to say that this thread is amazing. So much good advice that I am absorbing. Thanks.
Then you should check out this:
http://www.austinbike.com/advice/career.asp

The advice about not saying anything until you have signed the paperwork is a great piece of advice also. Makes it harder for you to be swayed by a counter offer. That helps you Ho
D the high ground and stick to your decision. Also, should something happen at the last minute you are not stuck in a bad spot.