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Hscv / Ssvf / Ssv / Eta / Wtf?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Superdeft, May 27, 2004.

  1. Superdeft

    Superdeft Monkey

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    HSCV / SSVF / SSV / ETA / WTF?

    I'm curious about the different damping types marz uses in the 2004 Z1 series, how they work, and what advantages each kind has.
    Ultimately this should lead to a semi-educated choice based on which fork offers what ride quality at what price.

    Do we have any knowledgeable :monkey:s who can help rank and describe the different sorts?
     

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  2. Burnwood

    Burnwood Chimp

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    HSCV is Marzocchi's high end damping system. It's slightly more complicated than the SSV(F) cartridges, using stacks of shims to control the forks movement. It performs extremely well at any speed.

    SSV is Marzocchi's orginal system, using a ported damper to control the suspension movement. Different size holes are used to control the flow of oil, which leads to problems at higher speeds...Performs well at low speeds and can perform poorly at higher speeds...

    SSVF is basically the SSV damping system, with a floating piston added to it. This piston is supposed to improve the performance of the SSV system at higher speeds.

    ETA isn't a damping system persé, but is more of an add on. With the turn of a switch, ETA reduces the travel of your front fork, increasing the efficiency of your riding on mellower terrain.
     
  3. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    Sorry, but there are several errors above;

    HSCV, this is marzocchis current high end damping system. It is vastly different and better than SSV, or SSVF. As reported above, it uses shims that "blow off" to impacts depending on the impact force. There is an error on marzocchis website when they are talking about one of the air-forks, and they say that it has "doppio air" damping. It's a type and is describing the spring, not the damping, which is HSCV like the other high end forks.

    SSVF, this is a low-end damping system. It is ported, meaning there are fixed-diameter holes that the oil must flow through, this can create spiking at high speed. This version has a floating valve for more supple-performance on braking-bump type impacts.

    SSV, the lowest-end damping system, this is the same as SSVF, without the floating valve. The difference between SSV and SSVF and how they ride is pretty insignificant, they are essentially the same thing. This is not marzocchis "original" damping system.

    Before 2002, the HSCV cartridges were known as SSV cartridges, this creates a lot of confusion when you look at the current "SSV and SSVF" dampers. A 1999 Z2 BAM had "ssv catridges", not "ssv".

    So the current "HSCV" cartridges are similer to the old "SSV cartridges", but not similer to SSV or SSVF damping.

    ETA is a lock-down type of lockout system, flip the lever, push down on the fork, and it stays "locked" down, with 30mm of travel left over for small impacts. ETA designed to be used when climbing.

    ECC is also a lock-down system, but it is less sophisticated than ETA, it operates the same except it doesn't have 30mm of travel left when locked-down, it is just "locked" like a rigid fork.

    Marzocchis HSCV forks are worth it, but I'd advise anyone to stay away from all SSV and SSVF models, and if you can't afford one of the models with HSCV, then to look at the Manitou Shermans with TPC and Fox Vanillas, these are also forks with very good damping systems, and can sometimes be had for less money.
     
  4. TWISTED

    TWISTED Turbo Monkey

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    I have a 2004 z1fr 130mm, top of the line cartridge dampening, and a custom 2004 drop off triple qr20 145mm, cheap valve dampening. Yes there is a huge difference in performance. In fact I'm going to try to convert the drop off to cartridge if I can somebody with a trashed superT 6" so I can take the internals.
     
  5. Spunger

    Spunger Git yer dumb questions here

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    Just get the fork with HSCV. Simple as that. JM is right on the money with the definations of what the forks damping systems do.

    I have a shiver with the ECC. Very cool for climbing. I think either one would be ok on a fork because you only use it for climbing.

    Again if you can't afford the Marz fork with HSCV look into a vanilla or sherman. I like the Fox forks, built tuff, sturdy, and have a proven track record.

    Also take into acount that some of these forks use a 20mm TA axle. Fox doesn't make a 20mm TA fork so that will limit your choices to shermans and Z1's
     
  6. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    So i got a 2003 Z1 with SSVF, is it really bad? Should i switch to an HSCV cartridge right away to transform my fork?
     
  7. Roasted

    Roasted Turbo Monkey

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    How many time do i have to tell you the differences. It isn't bad per se but is a signifgant difference to how the hsvc feels.

    Read above, basically the same thing I have been telling you for 2 months.
     
  8. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    Mark, i never doubted you for a second, when you told me about the differences. Through this thread i realise that according to some SSV, SSVF is low-end and does not show the qualities of Marzocchi's damping aka HSVC. So in the near future i ll raise some cash to switch damping cartridges.
     
  9. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    Depends on your frame of reference, if you ride slow and not very agressive, you may not notice much benefit from hscv. When you ride fast and agressive, that's when you notice HSCV or the lack thereof in a marzocchi fork. When I rode my Jr T at high speed, it felt like it was trying to "break my wrists off" because of the spiking and just not working well at high speed.

    Also, the guy that's never had a fork with more travel than 3" will think even the SSV/SSVF Z1 is "great", untill he tries going faster, but his view is skewed because he doesn't know how a fork with this much travel is supposed to work, so while he just "accepts" little quirks and traits of the fork, when he tries something that is much better, like TPC+, a fox cartridge-fork or a marzocchi cartridge-fork, he's blow away (again) and can't believe how good it works.

    Few people "need" anything that is mtb-related, but that doesn't mean that there is stuff out there that is hands down better than certain stuff, and most people would benefit from using the "better" stuff, cost is a factor though.
     
  10. bagtagley

    bagtagley Monkey

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    Heh, you had a typo on typo.
     
  11. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    o















    :D
     
  12. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    JM_

    Thanks for the clarifications mate. I have to notice this, when i go at more than 25mph offroad, i notice that my fork almost stops reacting to high speed bumbs. In other words it can not respond fast enough to repeated strikes. Is that a problem with the SSVF damping that can be rectified with an HSCV cartridge?

    I agree that on slow speed technical terrain (5mph singletrack) i got no problems, but when i am braaaping on open rough sections, things start to get shaky.

    What do you reckon?
    Yannis
     
  13. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    Yes.
     
  14. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    On my SX I have a Dirt Jumper 3 in 4 inch mode and I notice the poor performance of the SSV over the HSCV. But usually just suck it up and try to go fast enough to bounce over the rocks and stuff when I'm trail riding.
     
  15. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    the diff between low speed and high speed hits isn't always dictated by forward velocity. For dirt jumps and drops, the SSV works adaquately, because when you "land", it's actually a "low-speed" type impact, as opposed to riding at 20mph and full on hitting a 5" root, which would be a high speed impact and the fork is "forced" to move faster than the drop or jump. That's why the DJ forks use it. You can be "hauling" though and do a jump or a drop, and it doesn't feel "bad" when you land. I had no qualms or problems with how my Jr T felt on drops or jumps, it's just for general riding when the speed starts get up, and the rock gardens and other stuff you try to ride through on the trail.
     
  16. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    Definately. I use this bike mostly for DJing and MTNx and the SSV works fine there, but I do trail ride on it and occansionally I use it for DH when the race course is lame and I need a better pedaling bike. But then I usually try to jump over most stuff or try to get to a speed where I can stay on top of the rocks. But I do suffer on it when riding trails fast. I wonder if Marz. has some 110mm HSCV dampers that I could put in it?
     
  17. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    Good, i just hope that i can retrofit my Z1 with an HSCV cartridge instead of the current SSVF, with a reasonable cost.
     
  18. Toshi

    Toshi Harbinger of Doom

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    i'd advise against doing this. no one will pay more for a used z1 retrofitted with hscv cartridges than for one with the stock ssvf cartridges. i would just wait and see if your fork breaks, and upgrade to the top of the line at that time.
     
  19. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    Agreed, after further thought, i decided to keep the SX as it is, with Z1 and qr, and raise more cash for a bigger bike, with 20mmTA and HSVC DC fork. enough thousand dollars for the SX already....

    Thanks everyone for the advice!
     
  20. Toshi

    Toshi Harbinger of Doom

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    i thought you were waiting on buying a big bike until continental drift created some new mountains in your neighborhood :devil:
     
  21. math2014

    math2014 wannabe curb dropper

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    Yeah i am waiting for both :D:D:D

    The plan is to get a DH bike, while moving to the US or Austria or Spain, for a new academic post. Getting a big bike in the UK hills is indeed against my liking, small hills, and no car are a bad idea for using a big bike.

    Toshi i am amazed that you remember my circumstances and my past posts about buying a big bike. I am honored for this my sensei ;)

    Yannis
     
  22. Superdeft

    Superdeft Monkey

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    Thanks to all for the technical replies, it's just what I've been looking to sort out.

    It sounds like the HSCV is worth the extra coin for going fast over the rough stuff. Now I need to assess weather a 20mm axle is worth it, or to get the z1fr with standard QR...
     
  23. Zaskar Rider

    Zaskar Rider Monkey

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    So I think you just answered my question I've been wondering for a while now what kind of valving the z1 and z150 air forks use. It is the HCSV valving according to JM_'s description. Is that right?
     
  24. mack

    mack Turbo Monkey

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    my HSCV's dont work:mad: :( but thats probably because the there is no oil and if there is any its full o dirt. order the maxima yesterday;)
     
  25. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    You have to be carefull, there are such things as Z1 "dropoff" and "wedge" models that do not have the HSCV cartridges. Z1 FR and Z1 SL are HSCV.