Quantcast

hub tech

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
so its been many years since ive had to acquire new hubs (thanks hadley and i9) but for my next build i will be getting something new, i've always been intrigued by the sprag roller clutch bearings. I'm aware of a few brands that make them, Onyx, Box (they purchased True Precision didn't they?). Who uses what? pros/cons? how do they compare to other high engagement hubs like i9 hydra?
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
I have no experience with either, the weight has always been a turn-off. I have no issues with modern high-engagement hubs, so they're kind of a solution to a problem I don't have.

If you want to nerd out, note that the Onyx and Box mechanisms are slightly different. Onyx uses a sprag clutch, Box uses a one-way bearing with moving rollers. Supposedly less drag, decreased wear, and faster engagement, but I don't know if that's true or just marketing. Both are pretty neat, for sure.

King remains the gold standard for me for low weight and high-engagement but to be honest, I've been fine with the DT hubs that come on the last few bikes I've bought.
 
I have no experience with either, the weight has always been a turn-off. I have no issues with modern high-engagement hubs, so they're kind of a solution to a problem I don't have.

If you want to nerd out, note that the Onyx and Box mechanisms are slightly different. Onyx uses a sprag clutch, Box uses a one-way bearing with moving rollers. Supposedly less drag, decreased wear, and faster engagement, but I don't know if that's true or just marketing. Both are pretty neat, for sure.

King remains the gold standard for me for low weight and high-engagement but to be honest, I've been fine with the DT hubs that come on the last few bikes I've bought.
One-way bearing and sprag clutch are different names for the same thing as I understand it. @Westy, am I correct?
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
23,928
14,450
where the trails are
my $.02
for rear hubs I prioritize engagement, strength then cost. I've used CK hubs since I could afford them, even if running a cheapo Ringle front hub. That's good enough for this guy.
 

4xBoy

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2006
7,016
2,849
Minneapolis
Sitting here looking at the bikes in the room, 5 pairs of onyx, one DT, one King, hadley is out in the garage.

I love the lack of sound, DT is awesome, King is king, I have no feelings either way about them.

Hadley just keeps on keeping on, seven years original bearings, used every winter, don't even know how the bearings are going still, minnesota salt and all.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
I was wrong. Per @w00dy:

"A sprag clutch uses weird hourglass shaped wedges to engage. A one way bearing uses cylindrical bearings. In my experience the stealth hub (roller) engages faster than the onyx (sprag)."
I recalled there was a subtle difference between the implementation of the two. Is one more durable than the other? I seem to remember hearing the old true precision hubs were good for things like slalom and dh, but not for riding where they'd be under consistent load (pedaling) as with trail and xc riding? Was that actually true? (Did I have that backwards)? Any idea if it's still true with the Box version of the hubs?
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
Psst
Project 321

I found my i9 torch hubs to be embarrassingly loud and downright annoying. (I remember some jackass likening it to a sports car exhaust, no jackass that noise is energy wasted in the case of a ratchet mechanism)

I heard about project 321s magnet paw system with 216 poe, thought it was neat. On their site I saw that they used to use i9 drivers.

It set the wheels in motion.
I bugged him until he agreed to send me the special tool to remove the I9 drive ring so I could Install the 321 drive ring, quiet was nice, going from 144poe to 216, not really noticeable,

so I can't take the bullshit that the hydra 690poe is worth anything. Just stop with the poe... beyond a certain point no... maybe work on sealing and drag reduction

Also any hub that costs over 200 that doesn't have adjustable preload is a fkn pile of shite... and an insult.

The onyx has adjustable preload if im not mistaken. I know kings do, as do hadleys, how about the box?
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,573
1,069
La Verne
Also I rode my buddies onyx equipped bike
I would say it feels like less poe than more.

Also had the feel of a magna or huffy or mongoose with a freecoaster.

Backpedaling had a very strange feeling.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
I found my i9 torch hubs to be embarrassingly loud and downright annoying. (I remember some jackass likening it to a sports car exhaust, no jackass that noise is energy wasted in the case of a ratchet mechanism)

I heard about project 321s magnet paw system with 216 poe, thought it was neat. On their site I saw that they used to use i9 drivers.

It set the wheels in motion.
I bugged him until he agreed to send me the special tool to remove the I9 drive ring so I could Install the 321 drive ring, quiet was nice, going from 144poe to 216, not really noticeable,

so I can't take the bullshit that the hydra 690poe is worth anything. Just stop with the poe... beyond a certain point no... maybe work on sealing and drag reduction
I was never a fan of the I9 Torch either, for similar reasons, but I ended up with a pair of Hydras sort of by happenstance (got a deal on a wheelset that happened to have them) and so far I'm much more impressed. They're way, way quieter, not super draggy, and so far, so good on the bearings. I've only got a couple months of truly wet spring riding on them so far, but I'm in the PNW and will put a lot of time on them this winter so we'll see how that goes.

You don't need 690 POE though. They also feel like a little bit of a soft engagement, because at that many POE the pawls flex a little and engage extra teeth progressively. It's fine, just makes the massive POE number sort of gimmicky because it's not totally locked up as quickly as the tooth count would suggest. And I kinda DGAF over about 72 POE or so. I'm fine with 36.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
Psst
Project 321

I found my i9 torch hubs to be embarrassingly loud and downright annoying. (I remember some jackass likening it to a sports car exhaust, no jackass that noise is energy wasted in the case of a ratchet mechanism)

I heard about project 321s magnet paw system with 216 poe, thought it was neat. On their site I saw that they used to use i9 drivers.

It set the wheels in motion.
I bugged him until he agreed to send me the special tool to remove the I9 drive ring so I could Install the 321 drive ring, quiet was nice, going from 144poe to 216, not really noticeable,

so I can't take the bullshit that the hydra 690poe is worth anything. Just stop with the poe... beyond a certain point no... maybe work on sealing and drag reduction

Also any hub that costs over 200 that doesn't have adjustable preload is a fkn pile of shite... and an insult.

The onyx has adjustable preload if im not mistaken. I know kings do, as do hadleys, how about the box?
i'd forgotten about project 321, thanks for the reminder.

i found with my first gen I9 hubs if i use the hadley PTFE fluid it greatly reduces the noise. when it starts to get loud again it serves as a reminder to clean & relube.

Also I rode my buddies onyx equipped bike
I would say it feels like less poe than more.

Also had the feel of a magna or huffy or mongoose with a freecoaster.

Backpedaling had a very strange feeling.
i'd heard that the onyx/stealth hubs had a "soft" engagement feel compared to a standard pawl configuration.

I was never a fan of the I9 Torch either, for similar reasons, but I ended up with a pair of Hydras sort of by happenstance (got a deal on a wheelset that happened to have them) and so far I'm much more impressed. They're way, way quieter, not super draggy, and so far, so good on the bearings. I've only got a couple months of truly wet spring riding on them so far, but I'm in the PNW and will put a lot of time on them this winter so we'll see how that goes.

You don't need 690 POE though. They also feel like a little bit of a soft engagement, because at that many POE the pawls flex a little and engage extra teeth progressively. It's fine, just makes the massive POE number sort of gimmicky because it's not totally locked up as quickly as the tooth count would suggest. And I kinda DGAF over about 72 POE or so. I'm fine with 36.
i've had a parking lot test on the hydras and liked them. not like mind melting blown away, but they were nice. i've also been running high engagement hubs for a long time (probably close to 15 years by now) so i notice lower engagement moreso than higher.

regarding the 690 poe on the hydras - i've always been under the impression that # of POE wasn't a specific design goal for the hubs, rather just where they netted out from trying to design a hub to take advantage of the flex rather than trying to design it out.

I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on them after a winter of riding on them.


overall, one of the things i'm after is something with reduced drag; i just relaced an old hope pro 2 for my DH bike, and the amount of freehub drag was super noticeable. the sprag clutch and one way bearings accomplish this, but there are tradeoffs. i'd forgotten about the project 321, those are now on the list, and hydras were something else i'd consider. plus there's always hadleys. i've never had an issue with any of the ones i've owned (including 2 of the 108pt ti freehubs). plus i already have the tools for them. lighter weight is nice, but hubs are one place i'm willing to make the tradeoff for durability/longevity & performance.
 

ebarker9

Monkey
Oct 2, 2007
848
242
I have one season of riding DH on an Onyx Vespyr rear hub. No issues with durability, though in fairness I don't spend a lot of time riding in wet conditions and I'm generally not that hard on equipment. Engagement feels as close to instant as I could really imagine. I guess I do understand people saying that the engagement feels "soft" compared to a conventional pawl, etc design...not a sensation of slipping or anything like that, just doesn't have that harsh-feeling metallic "thunk" when you start pedaling. Love the silence. I'm pretty sold...will get one for the trail bike at some point.
 

w00dy

In heaven there is no beer
Jun 18, 2004
3,417
51
that's why we drink it here
Since JBP tagged me in, silent is really pleasant to ride. My main bikes have a true precision stealth and an onyx. The true precision (now box) engages faster, but the onyx isn't far behind now that it's broken in. Onyx is more available, has options...

That said, if I were less concerned with noise I'd be on a hydra. The concept is the most elegant design solution I've seen in a long time. They turned uneven pawl engagement from a worst-nightmare scenario (instant busted axle) into a design feature. This allowed a simple pawl ratchet to take engagement points into silly numbers. Higher performance, way better durability, no weight added, hardly any tooling cost to change over. All from inverting the thought process on a fundamental concept. Fucking genius.