[powderboy]

I am a very religious person and I believe in God. I also believe that our founding fathers were very faith-driven men who believed in God and wanted to fight for their rights to worship as they pleased, not governed by British Rule (i.e. Church of England).

Their idea of the separation of Church and State was derived from that idea... that they should not have to worship as the government saw fit.

Our founding fathers were, I believe, led by God to establish the USA as a free nation so that freedom of expression and true freedom and human growth could take place.

Now, I always run into people who take offense with things our president says. "God bless America" rolls off his lips all the time and his speech last night had some good religious overtones.

The day we stop thanking God for this great nation is the day we are all wiped off the face of the earth. We live in a blessed nation and with that comes great responsibility. If you don't believe in God, that's your right... but do NOT discount the actual principles by which this nation was founded and say that the founding fathers were not God-fearring people who founded this nation with freedom of religion in mind.

People tend to overlook the fact that the first article of the constitution guarantees the freedom of religion (or non-religion). Dubya is a religious person and because he's in public office, nothing would make him more phony than to pretend that he wasn't.</rant>

 

[Toshi]

eh. it's still distasteful to mix politics 'n religion. and that includes state o' the union addresses imo.

 

[powderboy]

Originally posted by Toshi
eh. it's still distasteful to mix politics 'n religion. and that includes state o' the union addresses imo.

It's about mixing politics with the way a person is and believes... like I said, if he didn't express those feelings, he would be as phony as a $3 bill...

 

[LoboDelFuego]

Sayings like: "God Bless America" and "In God We Trust" are fine if you are just wearing a tshirt or have them on the side of your van. It is wrong to use these in official government matters because the government is for all the people and should therefore not be saying things that pertain to only certain peoples and may offend others.

Religion is a touchy sunject and has started many wars, so it makes sense to leave it completely out of government. If you want to worship something, do it at home before the senate meeting. BTW Ive never thanked god for anything, and I'm still here. Maybe I'm special.

 

[Triphop]

I think what Powderboy is saying, is that God is a integral part of our Nation's history. This nation was founded by people that had a certain set of beliefs, and based the principles of the nation on these said beliefs. However, they allowed for the people to believe in whatever religious sect the poeple may choose, and in no way force their beleifs on others. Just because there is references to God in the U.S. government, does not mean that they are forcing a beleif on you. I am willing to beleive people have enough intelligence to filter through all the information that comes at them and make their own choices. If they said, you must make a vow to God or die, then that would be a bit different.

 

[powderboy]

Originally posted by Triphop
I think what Powderboy is saying, is that God is a integral part of our Nation's history. This nation was founded by people that had a certain set of beliefs, and based the principles of the nation on these said beliefs. However, they allowed for the people to believe in whatever religious sect the poeple may choose, and in no way force their beleifs on others. Just because there is references to God in the U.S. government, does not mean that they are forcing a beleif on you. I am willing to beleive people have enough intelligence to filter through all the information that comes at them and make their own choices. If they said, you must make a vow to God or die, then that would be a bit different.

Yup... true dat!

If you believe that Bush is acting tyrannical and forcing you to believe in God (if you don't), then you are very mistaken. You've got a brain, now decide for yourself and don't diss on others who believe differently than you do.

 

[patconnole]

I'm annoyed with god references, but I'm not about to fight to change it.... I can live with it, and I think it's ok to acknowlegde our religious history, even in government.


But, when an openly non-religious person makes it to office, or a person who isn't of the Christian faith, I hope people will be tolerant if the god he/she asks to bless this country isn't Jesus Christ.

 

[The Toninator]

there is no god.

 

[The Toninator]

Originally posted by patconnole

But, when an openly non-religious person makes it to office, or a person who isn't of the Christian faith, I hope people will be tolerant if the god he/she asks to bless this country isn't Jesus Christ.

it will not be tolerated. nor will the no believer.

 

[ummbikes]

It is quite common for the President to use religious refrences. Bush is allegedly a spiritual man. Clinton was too...

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Clinton was too...

don't make me laugh. he is about as religious as I am which is non existant. Hey I like the guy [came up with the worlds best way to Moisten a cigar if you ask me] I voted for him but devout ha...

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by eric strt6
don't make me laugh. he is about as religious as I am which is non existant. Hey I like the guy [came up with the worlds best way to Moisten a cigar if you ask me] I voted for him but devout ha...

Ya, I should have tagged the Clinton statement as alleged also. BTW I think the Lewinsky method pales to just have a Cohiba that is stored at the proper humidity...But hell it's a free country...

 

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I think the Lewinsky method pales to just have a Cohiba that is stored at the proper humidity...But hell it's a free country...

I agree, but the kinky bastard in me is very pissed off that I didn't think of doing that first:devil:

 

[Silver]

I also believe that our founding fathers were very faith-driven men who believed in God and wanted to fight for their rights to worship as they pleased, not governed by British Rule (i.e. Church of England).

I've got bad news for you. Our founding fathers were by most accounts I've read Deists. They believed in something, but not a god as the Bible claims. I have a sneaking suspicion that these days they would have been atheists for the most part. Science was still taking baby steps in the 1700 and 1800s.

Jefferson, Adams, Paine, even Lincoln....were not good church going folk.

I'll leave you with a quote from Gandhi (not a founding father, obviously, but the quote is very relevant in these times, I think.)


I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your christians are so unlike your christ.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Silver
I've got bad news for you. Our founding fathers were by most accounts I've read Deists. They believed in something, but not a god as the Bible claims. I have a sneaking suspicion that these days they would have been atheists for the most part. Science was still taking baby steps in the 1700 and 1800s.

Jefferson, Adams, Paine, even Lincoln....were not good church going folk.

I'll leave you with a quote from Gandhi (not a founding father, obviously, but the quote is very relevant in these times, I think.)


I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your christians are so unlike your christ.

please expound upon your belief that our founding fathers were not "good church going folk". i'd like to review your sources. i've read lincoln's personal diary and by that he was a very devout man. faced with difficult decisions, but still very blatent in his thought process involving belief in God.

Ghandi does make a very good point. he also said: "show me a christian and i'll be one". he's absolutely right, it's impossible to find a perfect christian.....because we're all still human.

 

[LoboDelFuego]

Ummmmm wasnt Jesus of Nazareth, leader of all christians, human? He obviously wasn't god or any deity cuz..ummm.....he died. And even if you cant perform crazy miracles, you can still be a super good person, which is what I think Ghandi was referring to.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by powderboy
Dubya is a religious person

It doesn't bother me that some politicians mention God, either to thank or justify. It bothers me that they're lying.

I don't believe for one second that W's thanks are sincere.

 

[LoboDelFuego]

Originally posted by ohio
It doesn't bother me that some politicians mention God, either to thank or justify. It bothers me that they're lying.

I don't believe for one second that W's thanks are sincere.

Well I don't know if I'd go as far to say that he is lying, but time is money and he wouldn't waste it on religious stuff if it wasn't part of his image. I don't think anybody can be a politician and uphold the high standards that religion demands of its believers. But then again, I don't know much about religion.

 

[Silver]

please expound upon your belief that our founding fathers were not "good church going folk". i'd like to review your sources. i've read lincoln's personal diary and by that he was a very devout man. faced with difficult decisions, but still very blatent in his thought process involving belief in God.

Well, Lincoln seems to be a little more ambiguous than some of the others. From what I have read, he seemed to have an intense distrust of organized religion, but at the same time he was aware that he had to pander to the preachers in order to get elected. A little Googling come up with Supreme Court justice David Davis quoted as saying, "He (Lincoln) had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term - had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects." He certainly was not a regular churchgoer.

Adams, Jefferson, and Paine are very clear cases. Any attempt to paint them as Christians is laughable. I'm not going to bother listing quotes here, they are very numerous and easy to find.

I can't wait for a Mormon or Scientologist president. Anyone want to bet on the decibel level of the religious right if that ever happens? The screams for separation of church and state will become deafening. As far as I'm concerned, believe whatever you want. You want to pray to Allah, Mary, or Harvey the Invisible Rabbit, go ahead. Just don't make it a matter of public policy.

(I'm going on the assumption that Christian means that you believe in the divine nature of Jesus, because that's the best definition I can think of.)

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Ummmmm wasnt Jesus of Nazareth, leader of all christians, human? He obviously wasn't god or any deity cuz..ummm.....he died. And even if you cant perform crazy miracles, you can still be a super good person, which is what I think Ghandi was referring to.

Don't ask me why I'm even getting involved here... I really hate debates. However, I couldn't let this go, because your statement is the whole crux of Christianity. Jesus and God are one and the same. The point is, the human race was separated from God because of Adam and Eve. It was after this that sacrifice was instituted for atonement. No human is capable of being perfect, yet God expects perfection. So, to atone for this, sacrifice was required. God made the ultimate sacrifice once and for all for anyone that would accept it. He came to Earth as a human, suffered all the same temptations and struggles as we do, yet was perfect. He was an "unblemished" sacrifice for all of man kind. If he did not die, there would be no Christianity.

This is a very deep, theological issue, and is, as I said previously, the crux of Christianity. I don't pretend to fully understand all that is encompassed in this issue, but I do accept it by faith. God will not force anyone to accept anything. He wants everyone to accept Him freely without coersion. I would not do any justice by trying to explain this issue any further, so I won't. But, there is plenty of info out there if you are so inclined to dig for it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by zibbler
No human is capable of being perfect, yet God expects perfection.

Which is precisely why im not a Christian.

 

[LordOpie]

Well, GOD is a generic term, pretty much. I mean, Christians and Jews both use it. I'm not that knowledgeable about Muslims, etc. But if we can all agree that GOD is a generic term, then I have no issue with the generic being used in politics.

the only people who'll get pissed off are atheists then and who cares about them? they're going to hell anyways

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Well, GOD is a generic term, pretty much. I mean, Christians and Jews both use it. I'm not that knowledgeable about Muslims, etc. But if we can all agree that GOD is a generic term, then I have no issue with the generic being used in politics.

There are well over a billion Hindus in the world (not sure how many in the US...). They are not monotheists. Neither are Buddhists. Neither are Native Americans still practicing their traditional religion... nor many of the non-Christian hundreds of thousands of Caribbean and West African immigrants (actually even some of the Christian ones, as their adopted Christianity has been so influenced by Vodun).

So if by generic, you mean "agreeable to those with the most power...' then yes, "God" is generic.

 

[LoboDelFuego]

Originally posted by zibbler
I don't pretend to fully understand all that is encompassed in this issue, but I do accept it by faith.

This is exactly the kind of mentality we want to avoid in government ,especially a democratic republic where understanding of ideas is crucial.

BTW: if god came to earth as a human (in the form of Jesus) then why did jesus have powers?

New issue: Who would win in a fight - Jesus or Superman?