[stoney]

I've finally got Wifey on board with getting a hunting rifle for small-mid sized game (deer and down) and a handgun for the house.

I've been reading up on the Ruger 10-22, and was wondering is a 'base' model with scope would be sufficient for that level of game hunting?

As for a a simple, low-kick handgun for the house, any suggestions? Wifey has shot and can control a standard 9mm (likely a true Glock), and is on board for something of this size.

We'll be getting a biometric safe for the pistol and trigger lock (key will live in safe) for the rifle.

 

[IH8Rice]

you could kill a deer with a 10/22 but youll have to be super close(25yards or less) and accurate. its really not ideal to kill big game with since youll wind up just wounding the animal in most cases. it may also be illegal in your area to use a small round like that for hunting.


that being said, im about to buy a 10/22 also but not for hunting

 

[stoney]

what's the next step up for real game hunting?

 

[-BB-]

I've finally got Wifey on board with getting a hunting rifle for small-mid sized game (deer and down) and a handgun for the house.

I've been reading up on the Ruger 10-22, and was wondering is a 'base' model with scope would be sufficient for that level of game hunting?

As for a a simple, low-kick handgun for the house, any suggestions? Wifey has shot and can control a standard 9mm (likely a true Glock), and is on board for something of this size.

We'll be getting a biometric safe for the pistol and trigger lock (key will live in safe) for the rifle.

Only if you want to get arrested!!

The 10-22 is WAY too small for deer and would be illegal in CA. I don't think you could even hunt Pig with that. It is a great piece, don't get me wrong. You can customize the cr@p out of it as well. 10-22 is appropriate for squirrel up to maybe beavers, possum or large fowl.

For deer you are gonna need something a lot bigger. 30-30, 7mm etc.

I'm looping in my buddy Eric. He rides and hunts... he can help you. He grew up on rabbit, squirrel etc.


For hand guns, I'd recommend a revolver like a 38 or 357. Less parts to jam etc. Literal point and shoot kinda weapon.

 

[stoney]

What about boar and such?

 

[IH8Rice]

What about boar and such?

again, shot in the right place and short distance. but it can still also be illegal.


i think next size up is .223?

 

[ridiculous]

You should buy a 10/22 anyway as it is easily one of the most "fun" rifles to own. Its just as customizable as an AR and the ammo is cheaper than paintball. You can take it to any range and have fun whether it be blasting away plinking or trying to hone in your skills. Theres no kick and you really dont need hearing protection if you are outside.

 

[-BB-]

when I talk about "pig" above, I mean those little black boars you see occasionally in Henry Coe (at least that is where I always saw them).

 

[olander]

I have a 10/22, they are awesome! Can shoot all day and it only costs you $20 in ammo. Although, you will pretty much only injur anything larger than a rabbit if you shoot it with a 22 unless the shot is PERFECT. I grew up in Louisiana and it is illegal to hunt deer w/ a 22 there, so i'm pretty sure it's illegal just about everywhere. Don't shoot beaver by the way, it is illegal (US and Canada i'm 99.9% sure). 22 lr round will be great for squirrels rabbits and plinking. Shotgun will be best for home defense. Little to no aiming. If you are in a stressful situation, which a home invasion is, you won't have time to take aim with a 9mm. check out keltec's new shotgun, only 26.125 inches long, 14 rounds and LEGAL in CA the most restrictive state, about $800. I have a mossberg w/ pistol grip for this reason, paid $360 for it. If you want to hunt deer the smallest rifle I would recommend is a 6mm or .243 cal. Boar are a different story, shotgun (20 gauge or larger and not the same one you bought for home defense) or rifle will work, but IMO rifle would be better and a heavier round for a boar over deer, 308 would be my choice.

here's a good video

 

[-BB-]

FALSE ADVERTISING!!!

I watched that video at least 3 times and there were no big wet jugs in there ANYWHERE!!

Thanks for chiming in Eric.

 

[IH8Rice]

If you want to hunt deer the smallest rifle I would recommend is a 6mm or .243 cal.

.243 is the next step up from a .22lr isnt it?

 

[jonKranked]

are you getting the handgun for home protection? if yes, i would recommend a shotgun.

 

[mattmatt86]

The recent theft of my DH bike has made me want to get a gun.

 

[IH8Rice]

The recent theft of my DH bike has made me want to get a gun.

gun purchases should always be made by rash decisions.

 

[4xBoy]

.243 is the next step up from a .22lr isnt it?

Not a gun guy I guess.

 

[sanjuro]

Maybe you should think of it the other way:

I believe many states have caliber restrictions, including California and Colorado. http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/agentleadflyer1.pdf

I can't speak much about hunting, but I believe a good bolt action with a fairly large caliber bullet is the most humane way to go after deer. Anything smaller and you might just wound it.

I thought the 10/22 was more for small game, like varmint hunting.

As for home defense weapons, a Glock 9mm is a pretty safe bet. You might go with a .380 of some type, like a Walther PPK. 380 is a popular personal defense round, particularly if you consider that accuracy is vastly more important than stopping power.

 

[IH8Rice]

Not a gun guy I guess.

yeah, that came out completely the wrong way.

 

[moff_quigley]

In most states .223 is illegal for deer hunting as well.

Edit: home defense gun...look into the mossberg hs410.

 

[skatetokil]

Just get a full sized revolver in 357.

If you ever actually need to hunt deer (I'm picturing a SHTF scenario here) you can keep some heavy duty loads and maybe a small scope. For home defense, slap some 38 special hollowpoints in there for the missus and you have a fairly idiot proof weapon.

 

[MikeD]

Remington 870 12 gauge with bead sight and a Glock 19. Done.

18" barrel on the shotgun if you're thinking dual defense/hunting purposes, longer accessory barrel for hunting if you like.

Buy a variety of shotgun cartridges, rifled slugs and 00 buck at least, lighter stuff for small game if you picture that. Get any decent hollowpoint ammo for the 9mm, with a ****-ton of cheap-as-possible ball ammo for training.

Spend any money you can on realistic defense training (ie, not just standing and punching holes in paper)

 

[BurlyShirley]

Remington 870 12 gauge with bead sight and a Glock 19. Done.

18" barrel on the shotgun if you're thinking dual defense/hunting purposes, longer accessory barrel for hunting if you like.

Buy a variety of shotgun cartridges, rifled slugs and 00 buck at least, lighter stuff for small game if you picture that. Get any decent hollowpoint ammo for the 9mm, with a ****-ton of cheap-as-possible ball ammo for training.

Spend any money you can on realistic defense training (ie, not just standing and punching holes in paper)

Sorry Im late on this.

Forget the glock and just get the shotty IMO.
You can get a maverick 88 for $150 (at Dick's or Sports Authority), which is a better gun than the 870 is. Remington's quality control seems to have gone downhill the last few years and the 870 has gotten a bad rep. (from what I've read, I have no personal experience with them).

The Maverick is a mossberg 500 sold under a different name. Only difference is the safety position. Joker, you can kill any animal on the north american continent with a 12 gauge shotgun. Just use different shells.

So why "forget the glock?"
Cause the maverick can be set up like this:

For way less than a handgun costs, plus no hassle of registering it. You can get a slug barrel too for the maverick to be accurate out to 100yds or so (deer or whatever). Comes stock usually with a 26" barrel, which is good for most any type of hunting. Can shoot slugs with the stock barrel accurately out to 50 or 60 yards Id say.

This is how they look stock.

The thing about guns is that, unlike most things nowadays, they are pretty much made to last even budget ones. My shotgun is from 1989 or so and it is smooth as anything, and has been shot to death. No need to spend a ton on one at all.

 

[Mr Jones]

When I'm away, I setup my mossberg pump action for my wifey. 7 shells in the tube loaded as such (LIFO, Last In First Out) Slug, Slug, 00Buck, 00Buck, 00Buck, Birdshot, Birdshot

Funny as it may sound, as of recently my primary defense weapon when I'm home with the fam is my Browning Buckmark .22 with the front and rear sights removed and loaded with hollowpoints. It stays accessible along with 2 extra mags and a tac light on a kydex paddle. My reasoning... I can empty the weapon quickly and stay on target with every shot. It only takes 1 well placed shot to end a situation. It may not be the first or second shot, but all you need is 1 in the right spot. (Mozambique Drill)

If/when you get a firearm, you and anyone who may have to use it, MUST TRAIN WITH IT.

Loading
Safe Unloading
Storage
Shooting off hand
Clearing a malfunction
knowing whats beyond your target
shooting while standing unsupported
supported
while on one knee
prone supported/unsupported
situational training
etc....

 

[MikeD]

When I'm away, I setup my mossberg pump action for my wifey. 7 shells in the tube loaded as such (LIFO, Last In First Out) Slug, Slug, 00Buck, 00Buck, 00Buck, Birdshot, Birdshot

Don't get that. If you've got to shoot someone, don't mess around with birdshot. Employing a firearm should only be done if you actually need to stop someone from killing or seriously injuring you. In this case, use the best available means to do so. I'd go with straight 00 buck unless you somehow anticipate a longer-range self-defense encounter.

MD

 

[Mr Jones]

Don't get that. If you've got to shoot someone, don't mess around with birdshot. Employing a firearm should only be done if you actually need to stop someone from killing or seriously injuring you. In this case, use the best available means to do so. I'd go with straight 00 buck unless you somehow anticipate a longer-range self-defense encounter.

MD

I understand what you are saying. If I were wielding the shotty, I'd be 00buck all the way. I'm also 5'11" @ 200lbs and shoot weekly. My wife only shoots once or twice a month.

My wife is also a dainty 5'2" 115lbs (hope she doesn't see that I posted her actual weight) and my house is pretty small with short narrow hallways and small rooms. The birdshot is because of the extremely close quarters. With no choke on the 18"bbl, the #1 birdshot pattern at 10 yards (longest hallway) is still pretty small with only 25-35 steel pellets. Would be even smaller with 00.

I want her to have the best chance at incapacitating the guy ASAP in a possible shoot from the hip situation. Or at the very least, hurt him enough to make him change his mind. I've also taught her to shoot until she feels that she and the kids are safe; which I hope she understands as meaning that she should at least expend one 00buck.

 

[MikeD]

If she can't handle it, get her a 20ga. Birdshot is a bad, bad idea. And likely she's not going to handle the buck or the slug any better than on her first shot.

Plenty of smaller women handle our 14" 12ga just fine.

Maybe try Federal Tactical reduced-recoil buck/slug loads?? I like 'em.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Remington 870 12 gauge with bead sight and a Glock 19. Done.

18" barrel on the shotgun if you're thinking dual defense/hunting purposes, longer accessory barrel for hunting if you like.

Buy a variety of shotgun cartridges, rifled slugs and 00 buck at least, lighter stuff for small game if you picture that. Get any decent hollowpoint ammo for the 9mm, with a ****-ton of cheap-as-possible ball ammo for training.

Spend any money you can on realistic defense training (ie, not just standing and punching holes in paper)

Triple-aught buck makes lovely hamburger.

 

[moff_quigley]

12ga in a small house or small hallway is going to be like a flash bang grenade exploding. You better hit with the 1st one...

 

[MikeD]

Train for it. And make the surprise and shock work for you.

And/or keep a set of Peltors next to the gun.

By the way, Joker, if you haven't at least installed solid-core doors on the entrances and bedroom threshold, locked with heavy deadbolts (sergeant and greenleaf sliding bolts are good, plus toss a Yale key bolt lock on there), appropriate illumination, plus an alarm system of some sort, guns are the LAST thing you need to think about. A dog is often the best way to keep safe, at home too. They function as a deterrent, an alarm, and a protective device all in one. And they're fun and cuddly and need to poop and be walked and aren't allowed or practical for some living situations.

Guns are for when your deterrent and protective measures have failed, which is a chance close to zero if you really put some thought, effort, and a little money into it. Obviously, I think they have their place, but most people (not saying you) looking at "home defense" are doing it ass-backwards.

 

[TheMontashu]

.243 is the next step up from a .22lr isnt it?

the next step up from a 22lr would be a 22mag, a .243 is a necked down .308, and a 22-250 is a necked down 243.

I've finally got Wifey on board with getting a hunting rifle for small-mid sized game (deer and down) and a handgun for the house.

I've been reading up on the Ruger 10-22, and was wondering is a 'base' model with scope would be sufficient for that level of game hunting?

As for a a simple, low-kick handgun for the house, any suggestions? Wifey has shot and can control a standard 9mm (likely a true Glock), and is on board for something of this size.

We'll be getting a biometric safe for the pistol and trigger lock (key will live in safe) for the rifle.

I would get a 10-22 to practice with, you're not going to want to spend the coin to go out and PRACTICE your deer gun. You'll actually save the cost of buying the 10-22 over dear rifle ammo in less than 500 rounds. Then I would say get a .243 or a .308 (.308 has cheaper more readily available ammo) Look at a savage, that accu trigger is quite nice, and they shoot VERY well for the price, that or a CZ, I'm not sure on there high power stuff, but my dad has a 75 and one of there .22s and they are both VERY nice. .22 ammo is like 25-30 for 500 rounds now, where as a .308 or .243 is 20-30$ per 20

For a handgun I always try and convince people not to buy a 9, if dude is hopped up on meth, you better be a damn good shot. I would actually pick up a .357sig, it's a necked down 40 actually. Kicks like a 40, hits like a 357 mad, and you can buy a second barrel/ mags and shoot the cheaper .40 ammo out of it.

As for what the wifey can handle, GET HER TRAINING, (and yourself for that matter) I was shooting IDPA (action pistol) at 14 with a .45. Handling recoil on a handgun has more to do with technique than size.







BAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA complete gun retardation from 2 of my best friends here HAHAHAHA

 

[MikeD]

For a handgun I always try and convince people not to buy a 9, if dude is hopped up on meth, you better be a damn good shot.

This is because you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[TheMontashu]

When I'm away, I setup my mossberg pump action for my wifey. 7 shells in the tube loaded as such (LIFO, Last In First Out) Slug, Slug, 00Buck, 00Buck, 00Buck, Birdshot, Birdshot

Funny as it may sound, as of recently my primary defense weapon when I'm home with the fam is my Browning Buckmark .22 with the front and rear sights removed and loaded with hollowpoints. It stays accessible along with 2 extra mags and a tac light on a kydex paddle. My reasoning... I can empty the weapon quickly and stay on target with every shot. It only takes 1 well placed shot to end a situation. It may not be the first or second shot, but all you need is 1 in the right spot. (Mozambique Drill)

If/when you get a firearm, you and anyone who may have to use it, MUST TRAIN WITH IT.

Loading
Safe Unloading
Storage
Shooting off hand
Clearing a malfunction
knowing whats beyond your target
shooting while standing unsupported
supported
while on one knee
prone supported/unsupported
situational training
etc....

Know your target and what's beyond- Little bit of a mistake on the shot choice, go with say number 6 or 7, it may sound a little strange, but think about this. Number 6 pelets are going to go into you and F your day up, they are .1 inches and there's 225 per OZ, Vs 00, which has 8 pelets, that will yes, mess up your day. But remember this a that 00 is a 55 grain round slug, that will also mess up your next door neighbors day, and a 1oz slug might go further.

a .22?? seriously?? If you're training, within home defense distances it should take you 1 shot, and if you're trained right it's no big deal to dump out a mag full of 45's. But again, you really shouldn't need that many shots.


If you want to get serious about home defense shooting Joker, take some classes, and practice. Start shooting some IDPA if you can (international defensive pistol association) it's the type of action pistol shooting that is based off of home defense, IPSIC and USPSA are more of games, and you'll pick up bad habits like dropping mags with rounds in them out of cover.

 

[TheMontashu]

This is because you don't know what you're talking about.

a 357 sig has close to 50% more muzzle energy than a 9mm, whether it has enough power or not is a hotly contested and you know it.

 

[MikeD]

a 357 sig has close to 50% more muzzle energy than a 9mm, whether it has enough power or not is a hotly contested and you know it.

The physics involved in the puny power of any handgun round do not matter in the face of the human factors of a fight.

With rifle cartridges, you approach something close to the mythical "stopping power" that people attribute to firearms, due to the cavitation factor of the wounds they can cause. Once you have a pistol round that will penetrate the human body (ie, 9mm), everything else is academic until you reach calibers which are not practical for use in a fight against another human (big-bore revolver hunters need the power to penetrate the wild animals they hunt.)

Your armchair paper-punching role-playing-game-with-gun hobby does not make you expert. Focusing on the gun, and especially the features of the gun, as anything but one tool in a combative situation is a massive amateur error compared to the mindset, and then then the tactics, involved. Even more so is the error of focusing on some numbers rather than where you're putting shots. Your .357 in the arm is still an arm wound, and a 9mm will cause an arm wound as well. Putting either round into a face or critical chest organ is still a critical shot, regardless of caliber. Neither will reliably stop any target, methed-up or not, without at least one critical hit, and it might take many more.

Short version: if you're gonna stab me with a pencil (pistol round), it needs to be repeated and in a critical place to have an effect. Using a slightly fatter pencil or hitting me slightly harder with it is really besides the point. If you can upgrade to a hammer (rifle) you've just changed that dynamic.

 

[TheMontashu]

The physics involved in the puny power of any handgun round do not matter in the face of the human factors of a fight.

With rifle cartridges, you approach something close to the mythical "stopping power" that people attribute to firearms, due to the cavitation factor of the wounds they can cause. Once you have a pistol round that will penetrate the human body (ie, 9mm), everything else is academic until you reach calibers which are not practical for use in a fight against another human (big-bore revolver hunters need the power to penetrate the wild animals they hunt.)

Your armchair paper-punching role-playing-game-with-gun hobby does not make you expert. Focusing on the gun, and especially the features of the gun, as anything but one tool in a combative situation is a massive amateur error compared to the mindset, and then then the tactics, involved. Even more so is the error of focusing on some numbers rather than where you're putting shots. Your .357 in the arm is still an arm wound, and a 9mm will cause an arm wound as well. Putting either round into a face or critical chest organ is still a critical shot, regardless of caliber. Neither will reliably stop any target, methed-up or not, without at least one critical hit, and it might take many more.

Short version: if you're gonna stab me with a pencil (pistol round), it needs to be repeated and in a critical place to have an effect. Using a slightly fatter pencil or hitting me slightly harder with it is really besides the point. If you can upgrade to a hammer (rifle) you've just changed that dynamic.

I get what you're saying there, but I've also stated before, that you need to practice. And I understand I'm not an expert at defensive shooting, but that's what I've heard from loads and loads of law enforcement people I've shot with.

Ponder this though, there is no gun under my bed, I don't feel the need for 1, I live in a safe enough area. As well, I do know how to shoot, not nearly as well as I could 3-4 years ago, but I can still probably shoot at an A class level in IDPA, and I can still hold the ten ring prone with my target gun. So actually , seeing as how all my stuff is locked up in the safe, I don't see any errors at all.

 

[MikeD]

You've expressed disdain for a lot of cops' shooting ability. (Not without reason...) I recommend a healthy skepticism when taking their opinions about other stuff, too. Mostly they regurgitate the stuff they've been told, right or wrong, like most of us. And a lot of them have the same gun-store and Internet-lore prejudices, marketing, and misconceptions bred into them.

As a Marine infantryman (especially given my peacetime career), I heard as much or more ridiculous BS mythology about guns and combat than anywhere else in the world.

 

[TheMontashu]

You've expressed disdain for a lot of cops' shooting ability. (Not without reason...) I recommend a healthy skepticism when taking their opinions about other stuff, too. Mostly they regurgitate the stuff they've been told, right or wrong, like most of us. And a lot of them have the same gun-store and Internet-lore prejudices, marketing, and misconceptions bred into them.

As a Marine infantryman (especially given my peacetime career), I heard as much or more ridiculous BS mythology about guns and combat than anywhere else in the world.

I generally do, but the guy who convinced me to get my 40cal over a 9 did 3 tours in Vietnam in the special forces. He did risk management and law enforcement training when he came back till he retired. The guy really knows his ****, I'm going to ask what he thinks about it.

 

[MikeD]

If you're going larger than 9, at least .357 SIG and .40 give you a good round count, unlike .45.

If .357 SIG and .40 cost the same as 9mm and were as widely available as 9mm, I'd have no argument against them, honestly. But buying more ammo to train with is exponentially more important than a minor difference in physics.

I'd also wonder if they guy saw his real-world handgun shooting experiences through the lens of military full-jacket ball ammo, instead of modern hollowpoint self-defense ammo. Might account for a justified real-world opinion within that context. I know a lot of people who have experiences far beyond mine whose opinions differ from mine, too. Doesn't mean I think they're right.

In any case, someone thinking about self-defense has a lot more to think about than the gun itself, much less its caliber. Tactics of avoiding a fight, tactics of minimizing risk, tactics of maintaining the initiative in potentially dangerous situations, ability to maintain awareness, decisions on when and how to employ force at any level, etc. And once it comes to firearms employment, handling and proper use of the firearm long before caliber makes any difference. Then, employing a handgun repeatedly and effectively on your target regardless of caliber.

Summary: I'm not against calibers bigger than 9mm per se, but I think the discussion misses the far more important points in self-defense, and also gives a false sense that handguns can accomplish far more than they actually can.

 

[TheMontashu]

If you're going larger than 9, at least .357 SIG and .40 give you a good round count, unlike .45.

If .357 SIG and .40 cost the same as 9mm and were as widely available as 9mm, I'd have no argument against them, honestly. But buying more ammo to train with is exponentially more important than a minor difference in physics.

I'd also wonder if they guy saw his real-world handgun shooting experiences through the lens of military full-jacket ball ammo, instead of modern hollowpoint self-defense ammo. Might account for a justified real-world opinion within that context. I know a lot of people who have experiences far beyond mine whose opinions differ from mine, too. Doesn't mean I think they're right.

In any case, someone thinking about self-defense has a lot more to think about than the gun itself, much less its caliber. Tactics of avoiding a fight, tactics of minimizing risk, tactics of maintaining the initiative in potentially dangerous situations, ability to maintain awareness, decisions on when and how to employ force at any level, etc. And once it comes to firearms employment, handling and proper use of the firearm long before caliber makes any difference. Then, employing a handgun repeatedly and effectively on your target regardless of caliber.

Summary: I'm not against calibers bigger than 9mm per se, but I think the discussion misses the far more important points in self-defense, and also gives a false sense that handguns can accomplish far more than they actually can.

Well there is a dillon press in the garage, to make sure I have ammo to practice with.

I would agree, that training, and practicing said training is the best thing to do, but all I can do is get you into a nice stable off hand, or kneeling position with a sling, that's why I suggested he (and any one else in the house) get training

 

[Mr Jones]

a .22?? seriously?? If you're training, within home defense distances it should take you 1 shot, and if you're trained right it's no big deal to dump out a mag full of 45's. But again, you really shouldn't need that many shots.

Many home invasions happen during the dead of night. Unless you're MikeD, JohnE, GFF, manimal, or if you train DAILY (e.g. law enforcement), you're not going to be calm and accurate as you would be on the range or during an IDPA shoot. That being said, your accuracy will be deminished, and unless the intruder is point blank and on his knees, your 1 shot 1 kill meme will fail... and keep in mind. The intruder may be armed and may have friends with him.

If I have an intruder and if I take aim at said intruder, said intruder will have more than 1 projectile flying at him guaranteed. Shoot until the threat is neutralized. I don't care who you are. If you're not armored up and take a .22 to the noggin at 10 yards, you'll drop. If you're methed up, it may take 2 shots, but you'll still drop. Even you'll agree, a double tap with a .22 is more controllable than a double tap with 9mm, .357 sig, .38spc, .357mag, 10mm .40, or .45

In any case, someone thinking about self-defense has a lot more to think about than the gun itself, much less its caliber. Tactics of avoiding a fight, tactics of minimizing risk, tactics of maintaining the initiative in potentially dangerous situations, ability to maintain awareness, decisions on when and how to employ force at any level, etc. And once it comes to firearms employment, handling and proper use of the firearm long before caliber makes any difference. Then, employing a handgun repeatedly and effectively on your target regardless of caliber.

Mooshoo.. you should really take this to heart ^^^. This paragraph is undoubtedly one of the TRUEST, most legitimate, most practical statements in this thread and in the whole realm of SELF DEFENSE.

 

[TheMontashu]

Many home invasions happen during the dead of night. Unless you're MikeD, JohnE, GFF, manimal, or if you train DAILY (e.g. law enforcement), you're not going to be calm and accurate as you would be on the range or during an IDPA shoot. That being said, your accuracy will be deminished, and unless the intruder is point blank and on his knees, your 1 shot 1 kill meme will fail... and keep in mind. The intruder may be armed and may have friends with him.

If I have an intruder and if I take aim at said intruder, said intruder will have more than 1 projectile flying at him guaranteed. Shoot until the threat is neutralized. I don't care who you are. If you're not armored up and take a .22 to the noggin at 10 yards, you'll drop. If you're methed up, it may take 2 shots, but you'll still drop. Even you'll agree, a double tap with a .22 is more controllable than a double tap with 9mm, .357 sig, .38spc, .357mag, 10mm .40, or .45

I'm down to once a week or so at the range, I was shooting like 4 days a week. (does manimal shoot that much? I don't know ANY cops but 1 who do) While I'm not going to be as accurate I'm going to go from little tiny group at 7 yards (you run the risk of going down for murder here in CA if he's further than that) I can still hit some one at that distance. If you really think you need a .22 cause you can't hold onto a target that's within 7 yards, then it sounds like YOU are the one who needs the practice

While a double tap is more controllable with a 22, if you can still keep control of a 40 or a 45, the what does it matter? especially at 21 feet