[Mr Jones]

I'm down to once a week or so at the range, I was shooting like 4 days a week. (does manimal shoot that much? I don't know ANY cops but 1 who do) While I'm not going to be as accurate I'm going to go from little tiny group at 7 yards (you run the risk of going down for murder here in CA if he's further than that) I can still hit some one at that distance. If you really think you need a .22 cause you can't hold onto a target that's within 7 yards, then it sounds like YOU are the one who needs the practice

While a double tap is more controllable with a 22, if you can still keep control of a 40 or a 45, the what does it matter? especially at 21 feet

A little butt hurt cuz your e-toughguy opinions were challenged eh? Was kind of expecting better from you seeing that you're getting older and all.

You must not know many cops then. I'm shocked you think only you and 1 cop practice that much. Gonna send the link to your comment to a few of my cop buddies. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it.

And I don't think I NEED a .22. I choose it. I also shoot 2-3x a week. Continue to rag on my choice as much as you want cuz thats your e-toughguy right; but unless you have hulk hogan arms and hands, the fact remains with a .22, you can fire 10 rounds at a moving target faster and more accurately than you can fire 10rnds of 9mm, .40 etc.... I learned A LONG TIME AGO, that accuracy matters more than caliber when you're in a stress situation.

If you can drop an assailant with a 9mm as he's rushing you with a weapon, then more power to you. In which case, you should have an entry like Manimal has in the urban dictionary. We'll can call your entry: "mooshoo'd". Used in a sentence: "You've been mooshoo'd"

 

[TheMontashu]

A little butt hurt cuz your e-toughguy opinions were challenged eh? Was kind of expecting better from you seeing that you're getting older and all.

You must not know many cops then. I'm shocked you think only you and 1 cop practice that much. Gonna send the link to your comment to a few of my cop buddies. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it.

And I don't think I NEED a .22. I choose it. I also shoot 2-3x a week. Continue to rag on my choice as much as you want cuz thats your e-toughguy right; but unless you have hulk hogan arms and hands, the fact remains with a .22, you can fire 10 rounds at a moving target faster and more accurately than you can fire 10rnds of 9mm, .40 etc.... I learned A LONG TIME AGO, that accuracy matters more than caliber when you're in a stress situation.

If you can drop an assailant with a 9mm as he's rushing you with a weapon, then more power to you. In which case, you should have an entry like Manimal has in the urban dictionary. We'll can call your entry: "mooshoo'd". Used in a sentence: "You've been mooshoo'd"

Not butthurt at all actually, not at all. Just stating that most cops don't practice, most of the time's I see cops at the range it's there twice a year practice before they have to qualify. I've noticed unless they are on swat or something of the sorts, they only practice enough to qualify, and most cop qualifications are just a notch above being able to simply just operate the gun.

If you're practicing 2-3 days a week then you don't need 10 rounds within 7 yards of you to hit a target. If you can actually get 10 rounds off out your .22 in that time that 7 yards turns to you being stabbed or something. I get what mike was saying about energy, but there's something to be said for a hole that goes from .22 to .4 compared to a hole that goes from .4 inches to .8. You're going from a surface area of 0.125 inches too 0.5 something square inches. Now I'm not an anatomy expert (or defensive pistol expert) but that's times the surface area, and 4 times the hole to bleed out of. I'm not sure how close together they actually are, but I would also be willing to bet that that added area puts a huge dent in the gap between your organs.

You're also forgetting something HUGE, the fact remains that at 7 yards, if you can't hit your target with the first shot (or 2 at the most) then you probably shouldn't be using the gun that way, and if it takes you the WHOLE MAG, then there are some serious issues. Using your logic, I should grab my dads 10/22 set of for silhouettes, at 7 yards, I can put every bullet in the same damn hole off hand pretty much instantly.

If a .22 was really the answer, then you might see cops using them, and you might hear of people using them/ recommending them for defense. Now if you want to tell me I'm wrong, you're challenging the vast majority of people who share my opinion, and would not use a .22 for home defense.You're mistaking me being butt-hurt with me being confused with you're whole going against commonly accepted wisdom.

 

[dante]

I blame video games... Your everyday burgler is going to hear shooting and take off into the night, because even if he's not hit, someone in the neighbirhood will hear the shots and call the police. It's only the idea that some brainless zombie controlled by a sh!tty AI is going to keep coming after you after you've put 2-3 shots from a .22 into him that's got people today having a hard-on for "stopping power".

 

[Mr Jones]

I blame video games... Your everyday burgler is going to hear shooting and take off into the night, because even if he's not hit, someone in the neighbirhood will hear the shots and call the police. It's only the idea that some brainless zombie controlled by a sh!tty AI is going to keep coming after you after you've put 2-3 shots from a .22 into him that's got people today having a hard-on for "stopping power".

THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[TheMontashu]

I blame video games... Your everyday burgler is going to hear shooting and take off into the night, because even if he's not hit, someone in the neighbirhood will hear the shots and call the police. It's only the idea that some brainless zombie controlled by a sh!tty AI is going to keep coming after you after you've put 2-3 shots from a .22 into him that's got people today having a hard-on for "stopping power".

Find me one article recommending a .22 for defense. Just ONE that a credible expert has written. As far as playing to many video games, I got my PS3 like 2 months ago, after not having had one since I was ten. As far as shooting guns goes, I've always done that. I'm not just running my mouth saying a .22 is underpowered. In the few thousand plus time's I've been too the range, and the dozen or so classes I've taken in pistol shooting, I have never ONCE head some one say a .22 is a good choice for self defense.

To put it into biking terms, this is some one comming up and saying "I'm going to race downhill, on an XC bike, because it's lighter and I can change lines faster, and corner harder" or some sort of BS like that."


http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/1354/22-lr-for-self-defense/

Read this, looks like the data says, yes, you can shoot a .22 faster and more accurately, but a bigger gun is still going to put them down MUCH better. Assuming you're actually shooting to kill

He also pointed out the high failure rate of rim-fire rounds, happens ALL the time, my glock goes bang every time. My buckmark DOES NOT. It also looks like the only reason he needs one for his house is so his 10 year old kid can use it.......

 

[RollingStone]

Just a note here that most states require a centerfire cartridge for big game hunting. I hunted effectively here in GA for whitetailed deer with a .243 for much of my younger years. Most companies manufactuer guns in this caliber. Light recoil, yet effective on Deer, and other medium, thin skinned game. You could take a Boar with it too. Another effective and popular round is the 7mm-08. Another light kicking round.
With a Pistol, depending on the size and weight of the woman, a full sized 9mm or .38 spcl might be a good choice. If the woman is of smaller frame, a snub nosed .38 has a snappy recoil, and generally not something enjoyable to shoot. IMHO, she must practice with whatever you get her.

A shotgun, while extremely effective, is no more accurate in a home invasion than a pistol. Unless you have a 40 ft hallway and the perp is at the other end, the Wad will never disperse the shot from it, essently leaving you with a big slug. Effective, heck yeah, Unweildy though.

Just my opinion guys, thought to add something.

 

[MikeD]

A shotgun, while extremely effective, is no more accurate in a home invasion than a pistol....

Just my opinion guys, thought to add something.

Ok, I will. You are wrong.

Any long gun, including a shotgun, is held in two locations. Think about the geometry of this and how it maximizes your accuracy compared to a handgun, which is held in essentially one place.

It's got nothing to do with the shotgun spread.

 

[TheMontashu]

Ok, I will. You are wrong.

Any long gun, including a shotgun, is held in two locations. Think about the geometry of this and how it maximizes your accuracy compared to a handgun, which is held in essentially one place.

It's got nothing to do with the shotgun spread.

3 with your shoulder, and 4 with a sling

 

[Mr Jones]

I've been shooting .22's since I was 4 years old. That makes it 42 years now. I've probably shot at least a brick a month for the past 20 years. That's over 120,000 rounds of .22lr I've pumped out. I only remember 1-2 duds ever during the past 20 years. I remember the day they happened too. I had fallen in the creek while hiking to the range in Virginia. I got to the range soaking wet with a back pack full of wet ammo. So going by my experience... I'd say .22lr cartridges are pretty reliable if kept dry.

There are a few guys I know in AZ who rail Geronimo and National @ SOMO faster than I do while on their XC hardtails. I'm not a pro, but I race sport class and stay midpack most of the time. So by my experience, your biking analogy fails.

True, I may never find an article recommending .22lr over any other caliber for home defense, but take this into consideration... What if .22lr is all the person could afford? Could said person still use it effectively against and intruder? My answer is yes. Also don't forget what Dante said...

...Your everyday burgler is going to hear shooting and take off into the night, because even if he's not hit, someone in the neighbirhood will hear the shots and call the police. ...

I'd hope this happens 90% of the time. The remaining 10%, it'll be me or him, but I have training, home field advantage, and 30rnds.

 

[TheMontashu]

I've been shooting .22's since I was 4 years old. That makes it 42 years now. I've probably shot at least a brick a month for the past 20 years. That's over 120,000 rounds of .22lr I've pumped out. I only remember 1-2 duds ever during the past 20 years. I remember the day they happened too. I had fallen in the creek while hiking to the range in Virginia. I got to the range soaking wet with a back pack full of wet ammo. So going by my experience... I'd say .22lr cartridges are pretty reliable if kept dry.

A brick a month? That's not that much dude, from the time I was 10 till about 18 I was doing allot of target rifle shooting and would go through a brick a week worth of ammo and another 500 rounds a week on one of these http://www.scatt.com/ I recall getting misfires semi regularly (and I see it at the range regularly with rimfire stuff)

100 rounds down range a week is enough to keep your skills up dude, you loose half what you gained from your last practice in a week.

There are a few guys I know in AZ who rail Geronimo and National @ SOMO faster than I do while on their XC hardtails. I'm not a pro, but I race sport class and stay midpack most of the time. So by my experience, your biking analogy fails.

Sounds like they are a whole hell of allot better than you then, I've beat people down DH trails on a hardtail too, but I sure as hell would have gone faster on a DH sled, and I'm also pretty sure those FEW guys you know don't have a DH sled. As well you are looking for the few exceptions to the rule, that doesn't make what I'm saying untrue dude.

By that logic, I know dude's who will put 6 rounds out a 357, reload, and put 6 more down range by the time you finish your 10, AND do it more accurately. The fact remains that a .22 is still more controllable, these are just 1000 round a week revolver shooters.

True, I may never find an article recommending .22lr over any other caliber for home defense, but take this into consideration... What if .22lr is all the person could afford? Could said person still use it effectively against and intruder? My answer is yes. Also don't forget what Dante said...

Take this into consideration, joker is talking about getting a 9 AND a deer rifle in this situation

I'd hope this happens 90% of the time. The remaining 10%, it'll be me or him, but I have training, home field advantage, and 30rnds.

Just remember this though, you can NEVER miss too fast, and with only 37% of the shot's being fatal out of a .22; there is a 2/3 chance he might get his ass up and use that 1 shot out of his 45 put you at a much higher chance of being dead.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Whatever you as a shooter have confidence in and can effectively control is probably the best gun/grip/ammo combo for you. I personally wouldn't choose a .22LR for home defense over my Moss 590 but I also wouldn't expect my wife to necessarily take the same decision. I love rimfires for rifle plinking but in autoloading pistols, the round tends to be more prone to ejection failures and feeding issues than traditional autoloading handgun cartridges. Home defense use begs safety/reliability and it's tough to beat a revolver or a pump shotgun's manual feeding mechanism for that...plus they tend to cost less than autoloaders and have tons of widely-varied ammo options.

 

[heavy metal]

buy a 100 dollar mosin nagant. it'll drop something bigger than a deer if the need arises, and you can get eastern bloc surplus ammo for like $0.25 a round.

plus it makes a wonderful sound

Pickup a bayonet for it and you have a home defense weapon!

 

[sanjuro]

 

[$tinkle]

buy a 100 dollar mosin nagant. it'll drop something bigger than a deer if the need arises, and you can get eastern bloc surplus ammo for like $0.25 a round.

plus it makes a wonderful sound

Pickup a bayonet for it and you have a home defense weapon!

i'm in
on sale @ big5 sports until 27 aug (incl bayonet, i think), but a box of 20 shells goes for $15.

do you know if you can use common 7.62 w/ this? i'm assuming so since they made millions.

 

[heavy metal]

Mosin's fire 7.62x54R (Russian) which is the Russian equivalent of our 30-06 round, but it is a different round entirely. You can buy new made commercial ammo for like 10-20 dollars per 20 rounds but you can also buy large amounts of military surplus from old eastern bloc countries for cents on the round.

There is a lot of czech/ruskie surplus going around right now, it usually comes in a 440 round spam can.

 

[$tinkle]

curious: in the field, how would they open those things? hammer & screwdriver? russian version of our p38? churchkey?

 

[heavy metal]

haha this guy
302 Found

edit: Probably one of their big ol' ruskie horse skewer bayonets oughta do

 

[heavy metal]

here's a vid showing off some various surplus ammo available if your interested.

302 Found

 

[$tinkle]

got one of ea: the $99 one has a cheap buttstock & dipped heavily in oil, the other ($120) better quality wood & grommetted slingholes.

both came w/ funky 2-headed oil can, 2 old school leather ammo pouches, bayonet, sling, & cleaning kit (but no 5 round strips, unfortunately). now i'll be doing my homework on it over here: http://7.62x54r.net/

bought some cheap surplus ammo too - a 440 round spam can. looks like it'll be a lot of fun.

 

[heavy metal]

Nice! Is the oil you speak of tacky and coating a lot of the gun? It could be cosmoline, a preservative grease.

 

[$tinkle]

yep, tacky oil, plus what looked/felt like axle grease in the bayonet collars

 

[sanjuro]

I think it is time for this: http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/ak47-vs-ar15-vs-mosin-nagant.php

THINGS YOU KNOW IF YOU OWN A ...

AK-47
It works even though you seldom clean it.
You can hit the broad side of a barn from inside.
Cheap magazines are readily available.
Your safety is a broad lever audible 300 meters away.
Your rifle came with a cheap nylon sling.

AR15 / M16
It works as long as you buy the $9/ounce special non-detergent synthetic teflon infused oil.
You can hit the broad side of a barn from 600 meters.
Cheap magazines melt.
You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger.
Your rifle now has a 9-point stealth tactical suspension system.

Mosin-Nagant
It was last cleaned before entering Berlin in 1945.
You can hit the farm from the adjacent county.
What is magazine?
What is safety?
Your rifle came with two dog collars and a leash.

 

[heavy metal]

yep, tacky oil, plus what looked/felt like axle grease in the bayonet collars

Yeah that's cosmoline, its a blessing and a curse. On the bright side it means your gun probably is in pretty good condition having been rebuilt, caked in cosmo, and stored in some warsaw pact armory for WW3. Bad news is your gonna need to clean all that gunk off and out of your rifle, especially the breach, bore, and barrel before you go shooting. 7.62x54r.net has a good little section on cosmoline removal in their cleaning an maintenance section. Also that youtube dude iraqvet8888 has a good video on how to do it. But he uses oven cleaner to remove the cosmo from his stocks, something about that doesn't sit right with me.

Also don't forget to clean your bolt head, chamber, and barrel after shooting that surplus ammo, the primers have corrosive salts in them which will corrode your gun if left uncleaned. That's the catch that comes with cheap surplus ammo I spose.

 

[bigskycountry]

I would never consider myself an expert on the subject of firearms but I have been around them my whole life. Collect them, hunt with them, and spend a lot of time at the range putting holes in targets.

I have seen these "what gun should I choose" kind of threads on almost every forum I've ever been a member of and they ALWAYS turn into a stupid pissing match, much like this one has.

In my humble opinion you should pick whatever you are comfortable with and most importantly take a firearms training course and then PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!
Once you have put in enough time to be confident in your ability then you should still practice on a monthly basis.

Shooting is expensive.....I shoot and thousands of rounds sometimes when I visit the range. Sometimes I only shoot a few hundred. Depends on my mood and what firearms I take with me.
If you wanna shoot that much it is worth your time to invest in reloading equipment/knowledge. Reloading saves me around 40% give or take a little depending on caliber.

 

[heavy metal]

How are the mosin twins treatin' ya stink?

 

[$tinkle]

How are the mosin twins treatin' ya stink?

finally cleaned them -- well, couldn't get the handguard collars off, but the rest of it disassembled rather easily. a cop drove by when i had them both disassembled, & paid me no mind. now i just need to find time to "play"...

it appears as though it has an internal 5 round mag; is that right?

 

[heavy metal]

yup straight stack.

 

[llkoolkeg]

If you haven't seen it yet, watch Enemy at the Gates...a must-see for Mosin-Nagant nuts.

 

[IH8Rice]

If you haven't seen it yet, watch Enemy at the Gates...a must-see for Mosin-Nagant nuts.

jude law nearly ruined that movie

 

[$tinkle]

ok, took 'em out to play finally in the Hayman burn area
- pretty fun.
- very loud.
- bolt got a bit sticky after 30 rounds, but that was probably due to mothballed eastern bloc ammo.
- sighted & grouped well (better w/ modern rounds)

i couldn't imagine lugging that thing around the woods all day, even w/ the sling