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Hyped-up scary-tale or a real problem?

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by enkidu, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    Is it true that the military needs a lot more support for being subjected to Gulf War Illness, Atomic Veterans, Agent Orange, Project Whitecoat, Depleted Uranium, Chemical Exposures, Biological Experiments, Experimental Vaccines, Investigational Drugs, Mind Control Projects and so forth?

    MikeD, Riactor, Genpowell71 and others: Do you think the assertions made in "Beyond Treason, The U.S. Government's Long History of Conducting Deadly Military Experiments" (www.BeyondTreason.com) are truly major problems or just a hyped-up scary-tale?
     

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  2. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I'm not completely clear on what you mean, but probably yes. The DOD/VA refused to acknowledge gulf war sickness for quite a while. People were exposed to actual biological weapons when we bombed a weapons plant in Iraq.

    Depleted Uranium is highly toxic, when a DU round hits a tank about 75% of the round flashes into a vapor, and the remains pierce the tank in a semi-molten state. Then you've got G.I.s and indigenous personnel crawling around on the surfaces in and around the tank.

    Personally, I was given an experimental vaccine and it ended up triggering severe allergies and even asthma. Something I struggle with even today, twenty years after it happened.
     
  3. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    The content of "Beyond Treason" DVD was quite shocking to me. I didn't realize that soldiers were used for extensive experiments for so many years without their consent. Or that the damaging effects of Agent Orange, Depleted Uranium and chemical exposures were not fully explained to them before, during and even after the exposures, when the ill-effects were obvious. I wanted to know if this DVD isn't a skewed dramatization by some far-left political group. Thanks for confirming the validity of its assertions. I trust your knowledge and judgment.

    Really sorry to hear that you are still struggling with allergies and asthma twenty years after the experimental vaccine was given to you. I hope VA is taking a good care of you.
     
  4. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    You think that's bad. Burly Shirley sh*ts his pants everytime he walks past a high voltage power line. The army did some crook stuff to that guy. ;)
     
  5. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Actually the VA hasn't done anything for me. I can't "prove" it's service related. It just happens that it wasn't an FDA approved vaccine, it didn't work and was pulled. It just happens that I gradually worsening allergies starting within days of the vaccine, and it just happens I ultimately developed asthma, which I was told was bronchitis at the time. Later a civilian doctor was able to tell me it was asthma, later another doctor intimated that it was "quite possible" the vaccine had sensitized me.

    Before the vaccine I was 100% healthy, I had to be I was in the submarine service, in a special program, if I have any health problems at all I would have been disqualified. It was very short sighted to give me the vaccine. In the long term it cost the government a lot of money. I had very expensive training, a Top Secret security clearance with a very expensive Special Background Investigation for Special Compartmentalized Information access (now commonly called Special Access Project). They lost in today's dollars about a $2.2m investment.

    What kills me is that the ground pounders weren't given any training or information about DU before the first Gulf war. I've seen pictures and footage of them crawling around in and on tanks hit by DU rounds, taking pictures with kids standing on the dead tanks. It is amazing. Apparently some in power saw the footage and said "Oh, My God, WTF are they doing!!?" and the Army later issued a warning to the ground units about DU. Too late.
     
  6. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I've read some of his posts, I'm not sure the Army is entirely responsible... :D
     
  7. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Ah, that's because he was a marine... ;)
     
  8. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Ohhh.... That explains EVERYTHING. :D

    <edit>
    I am of course joking. Most Marines are great guys.
     
  9. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    What was most alarming to me in that DVD (Beyond Treason) was the fact that DU is scientifically known to contaminate human bodies internally, when billions of uranium particles are inhaled, affecting all parts of body, such as bladder, bone marrow, brain and semen. And through semen wives of the affected service men, but still as soon as the soldiers retire the wives are cut off from the Walmack(sp?) family medical coverage. And the fact that when the anthrax vaccination program was introduced the ones in charge were specifically ordered not to record lot #s, batch #s, names and numbers of the recipients or the time administered. Evading accountability is heinous enough, but the whole project will be useless for pure scientific consideration as well. What a waste of human bodies! What a blatant disregard of the dignity and the value of each human being!

    (Sorry for this rant. This DVD has many other thought-provoking information on it. So effective, that I even feared of being propagandized. Hence the title of this thread.)
     
  10. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    fortunately for me i got out just before anthrax vaccine was implemented, however i would have gladly gone to captains mast before i allowed that **** to be introduced into my veins.

    i know some cats the were still in after i got out and took that route.
     
  11. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    So you could actually refuse, if you wanted to? Were soldiers sufficiently informed to WANT to refuse it?
     
  12. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    i dont know if it was so much as informed as it was knowing how great :rolleyes: naval medicine is/was (when i was in) and based on that knowledge refusing the vaccine.

    however refusal of the vaccine was considered refusal of a lawful order subject to captains mast.
     
  13. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Good for you for being prepared to refuse it. I hope you'd have actually gone through with your decision if circumstances had required it.
     
  14. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I wasn't even told. I went in for my routine (I thought) shots to make sure my international shot card was up to date, and I needed a couple of shots. After two shots the doc picks up a third needle, I ask "I thought I was getting two shots?" The he tells me the first shot was an experimental vaccine.

    Within a couple of weeks I start getting rashes and hives, and it slowly gets worse, until I'm getting rashes whenever I exposed to dust, the doc gives me a steriod cream. Later it gets a little better, so I never did anything about it. Then we go to the yearly PT test, and I pass but have a hard time breathing. I go to the doc and he tells me it's bronchitis. This goes on for a couple of years. Finally my last year I actually end up so sick I can't even walk without effort, again it's "bronchitis", and I'm actually given a rack pass for 3 days and told only to get out of bed if it's absolutely necessary. It passes.

    Just before I get out, a friend in the personnel section is cleaning my records, shredding most of my stuff, and he finds two copies of my international shot card. One has the experimental vaccine, and several very special shots that most people won't ever need, the other doesn't, so he gives me both copies. I still have them.

    I get out and start working in the IS department of a hospital, and have a another breathing problem. This time I see an internal medicine specialist, who right away suspects it's asthma and has me tested. Sure enough it is. Later I see several allergy specialists who all suspect it was something in the original vaccine shot that caused my body to become sensitized.
     
  15. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    financially it would've been hard as i was only an E4 which would've reduced me to an E3...read not much money, but there was NO fvcking way that stuff was getting pumped into my veins!!! :nope:

    i bumped into some dudes after i got out and they told me about quite a few people on the ship reacting quite negatively to the shots, and about others who refused...and were promptly sent to captains mast
     
  16. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    Wow, the stealthily and quickly administered very first one was it. Before you could question. Like a trap. Didn't other servicemen talk and question about it? Was there no inkling of what others were experiencing or what was to come?

    It's too bad that it's not reversible.

    The DU half life is 4.5 billion years. Once contaminated no air, water or food will be safe for many billions of years. The Iraqis living there will be repeatedly exposed whenever the dust storms lift the DU particles in the air. The birth defects are becoming increasingly more sever from brain-less, eye-less, arm-less, or leg-less births to those born without heads and arms.

    I wonder who would not be enraged to see one's homeland turned into such hell.
     
  17. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Actually half-life is the time it takes for half the sample to decay, then second half like takes you to 1/4th the concentration, the third to 1/8th and so on.

    The key point, I think, is that in the Gulf war the tanks hit by DU rounds had very high concentrations of DU in and around the tanks and people, specifically soldiers securing the area, weren't told about the dangers. It also seems very little was done to clean the sites in a expeditious manner.
     
  18. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    :thumb: aah, thank you for the correction. You are the Reactor specialist!

    So there IS a way to clean the sites in an expeditious manner? On the DVD (Beyond Treason) it sounds as if there is nothing to be done once contaminated.
     
  19. beestiboy

    beestiboy Monkey

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    Yeah the anthrax vaccine scared the crap out of me too. I was fully prepared to refuse it and risk a dishonorable discharge. Too many unanswered questions for me and the risk in my mind was too high. Especially since I had no intentions of becoming a lifer. I remember in basic training they gave us 3 or four shots and a handful of pills.

    this may sound odd but i dont remember having an erection for almost 7 weeks while in basic. We had women in our unit too, one of those friggin pills messed with our willy's. they do some weird sh!t to us and never tell you.

    I was on an exercise one time in -60F temps. We were using experimental gear. I was testing a sleeping bag for Northface. I know it sounds minor but 60 below is no joke and then you add windchill. I didnt know about the bag for 2 years when I went to turn it back in.

    We definitely need to focus our energies on the Vietnam and younger vets, the VA is overwhelmed with the WWII gen. They never dreamed that they would live this long and its taxing their system hard.
     
  20. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    :eek: :help: :help: Oversharing mate.
     
  21. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Technically speaking you can't really clean it, most of the DU becomes superheated gas and settles out on just about anything and everything in the area. It's almost impossible to separate it back out again. You can remove the worst of the contaminated material, like the destroyed tanks and scrape the surface layer of sand in the immediate area to a safe area. You'd have melt the sand into glass to immobilize the DU, or bury it in a huge cement coffin, or both. Maybe fill the contaminated tanks with contaminated sand and store them in an abandoned bunker. At the very least they could have posted signs around the major sites warning people not to go in.

    The point I'm trying to make is that no one even thought about trying to clean up the mess until it was much too late. In the "normal" nuclear world, the first thing you do is Stop the spread of contamination, then you Warn others. A lot more could have been done.
     
  22. beestiboy

    beestiboy Monkey

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    you know you enjoyed it :drool:
     
  23. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    Sounds like a worthy and super-challenging engineering topic to work on. Just as with anthrax vaccine case, we need good scientific minds to come up with precise diagnostic tools and antidotes. . . even with the intentionally obliterated basic data.

    Much better way to use human intelligence than to designing more ways to deliver nuclear weapons. . . IMHO
     
  24. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    are you going SWIM'n on me reactor?
     
  25. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    You know the drill :D ..... But the Army didn't. I'd treat the area just like it was contaminated with a radioactive spill. In this case it's more of a hazmat but the reponse is still the same.
     
  26. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

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    What is SWIM? What does it involve? Who can SWIM?

    Is it possible for the local population to keep on SWIMming?
     
  27. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    It's a mnemonic to remember the standard procedure for dealing with radioactive spills. The general principles apply to HasMat/toxic/biological threat spills also.



    S Stop the source or spread of the spill - for example, upright an overturned container, close a valve, place absorbent material around the area

    W Warn others in the area

    I Isolate the area - close doors or use convenient items to form a barrier

    M Minimize your exposure - complete initial steps and move away from the area