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I have to say I agree with Gene Hamilton

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
A cool interview with Gene Hamilton is on the Mountain States Cup home page. He makes some good points about why the US riders are not performing better at World cup level races.

AN INTERVIEW WITH BETTERRIDE'S GENE HAMILTON
Read it here
 

BRIANBUELL

Monkey
Nov 17, 2005
500
0
Boulder, Colorado
Right on Gene! This interview has been a reminder to review all of the skills, mental and physical that I learned at your camp, which I definitely recommend to anyone looking to become serious about racing or to just become a better rider. See you in Sol Vista!
 

BRIANBUELL

Monkey
Nov 17, 2005
500
0
Boulder, Colorado
its not advertising, it is a way to help improve USA Down hilling, its actually the most effective way to get this point across to the young Dher's in America since we are all constantly on the computer being lazy sitting on the couch; it just so happens to mention Gene's camp which is totally awesome!
 
I think interviews like this quite often have a bit of an advertising driven influence to them. I would take the opportunity to plug my camp too.

Get past that though, and the Idea of coaching is whats important. I also believe that American racers for the most part underutilized the power of coaching, whether it come from Gene or who ever. I also agree as he states that this self sufficient way of going about competing is a reason why we haven't been as competitive in DH as some of the other nations.
I also think that we have to many categories and this also slows our riders progression to the top. This is something I've decided as of lately. Getting rid of semi-pro will be a good thing.
 

ekozy39

Monkey
Apr 27, 2005
312
0
I agree with his observation that natural athleticism gets some guys to a point (fast expert or Semi), but I don't think you can "teach" skills to someone who is going to be of WC level (not in a sport like DH, or MX). And to imply that that is what's missing from today's DH program is crazy.
That person has it or they don't and they build on that through fitness training and hard work, but not a fundamentals coach. I think maybe a fitness coach, but not someone teaching them how to jump, corner, etc.
Back when the US could win a WC race, there were no skills coaches, and i can't think of one rider (and i could be wrong) on that level that had a skills coach teaching them fundamentals.
There is obviously something other than fundamentals training that is keeping the US off the top.
 

Eastern States Cup

Turbo Monkey
Feb 29, 2008
2,465
2
East Coast
I agree with his observation that natural athleticism gets some guys to a point (fast expert or Semi), but I don't think you can "teach" skills to someone who is going to be of WC level (not in a sport like DH, or MX). And to imply that that is what's missing from today's DH program is crazy.
That person has it or they don't and they build on that through fitness training and hard work, but not a fundamentals coach. I think maybe a fitness coach, but not someone teaching them how to jump, corner, etc.
Back when the US could win a WC race, there were no skills coaches, and i can't think of one rider (and i could be wrong) on that level that had a skills coach teaching them fundamentals.
There is obviously something other than fundamentals training that is keeping the US off the top.
ummm, I don't disagree
 
I agree with his observation that natural athleticism gets some guys to a point (fast expert or Semi), but I don't think you can "teach" skills to someone who is going to be of WC level (not in a sport like DH, or MX). And to imply that that is what's missing from today's DH program is crazy.
That person has it or they don't and they build on that through fitness training and hard work, but not a fundamentals coach. I think maybe a fitness coach, but not someone teaching them how to jump, corner, etc.
Back when the US could win a WC race, there were no skills coaches, and i can't think of one rider (and i could be wrong) on that level that had a skills coach teaching them fundamentals.
There is obviously something other than fundamentals training that is keeping the US off the top.
Back when US athletes were winning WC races the sport was so new probably no one was using a skills coach, except for maybe Nico and we saw how he dominated. Since then countries like Australia, France, Great Brittan have more then the most started to utilize coaching in the sport, and it shows.
Skills coaching doesn't just imply someone coaching you on the proper way to approach the lip of a jump, or how to turn. At the upper levels a coach become more of an observer then anything, someone with a trained eye who can help you from an outside perspective to do what you need to do to strive for your best, to pick things apart.
I am also a strong believer that basic skills work should have a very prominent place in a training program for a top level racer. Top level ski racers, spend way more time working on basic fundamental and movement drills then they do in gates or even just skiing fast. Ski racing is a sport that has been around and researched for a long time, and all major nations in ski racing have designed there top level programs in such a way that emphasize the majority of the time spent on core skills, so much so that a lot of the National team selections criteria are based more on the competency of core skill more then results. Motocross and Ski racing are probably the two sports most related to Downhill.
Everyone develops bad habits over time and just riding only helps ingrain your bad habits. Basic fundamental and movement drills are designed to help correct and teach the proper movements and skills.
Fitness training is important as well, so is hard work, but why work hard if your not going to maximize what your getting out of it. I say work hard but work smart. Just blindly throwing out effort will definitely help you improve as you are doing something, but if you channel that effort into a a carefully designed program that focuses on all the big aspects of racing, strength, skills, mental, personal weaknesses etc, then your effort will pay off even more, and this is something that a coach can help you with as well.

I also strongly disagree with the you have it or you don't philosophy, I believe that some people at any given time may have a better head on them to succeed in a sport like downhill, and if you don't have it, its not easy to change, but almost everyone if they really want to put the work in can train themselves to do whatever they want. The only thing that will keep this from happening is self implied limitations. Or society especially seems to put limitations on ourselves every day, and the mind is incredibly powerful.
Some of you out there may think I sound like a cook or a hippie or something for making comments like this, but if there is one thing in common amongst all top level athletes in all sports its the fact that they themselves know that the top level is where they belong and its this confidence that helps bring them there. The people that never quite make it are often the people that carry a little bit of self doubt.

I'll end my rant there for now, this is just something that I'm quite interested in as both a coach and an athlete.
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,998
702
SLO
"Back when US athletes were winning WC races the sport was so new probably no one was using a skills coach, except for maybe Nico and we saw how he dominated"

Yeah he had some coaching but age 15-16 his times were fast enough to place him on the podium at many of the WC races he entered. I would say that extra 10% comes from training but someone with strong skill can beat somebody without it most of the time.
 
"Back when US athletes were winning WC races the sport was so new probably no one was using a skills coach, except for maybe Nico and we saw how he dominated"

Yeah he had some coaching but age 15-16 his times were fast enough to place him on the podium at many of the WC races he entered. I would say that extra 10% comes from training but someone with strong skill can beat somebody without it most of the time.
When you say someone with skill, I assume your talking about someone who would be considered naturally talented, the ones that have it, Nico would fall into this category.

Take a moment though to think about what being naturally talented means. It doesn't mean that they are able to do things entirely a different way and win.
I think the best way to describe someone who is naturally talented or skilled is, "an athlete who is naturally talented or skilled is an athlete who has an easy or effortless time learning and attaining competency of the core skills"
and its the fact that they quickly learn the core skills that qualify them as naturals. You have to have the basics before you can build upon them.
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
"Back when US athletes were winning WC races the sport was so new probably no one was using a skills coach, except for maybe Nico and we saw how he dominated"

Yeah he had some coaching but age 15-16 his times were fast enough to place him on the podium at many of the WC races he entered. I would say that extra 10% comes from training but someone with strong skill can beat somebody without it most of the time.
You do realize that at 15 years old, nico had a more advanced training regimen designed for him by top French National coaches who were more calculated & advanced at that time than most any other National program 15 years later.:disgust1:

This topic has already been discussed & EC & Stikman both chimed in on it. The fitness regimens of guys like Steve Peat, Sam Hill, Eric Carter, Brian Lopes & Myles Rockwell were what made them winners rather than "podium" placers.

So is it a coincidence that Minnarr has one of the top coaches in all of cycling? I don't even have to read the article to agree with Hamilton. When you race in a sport decided my .100's of seconds, natural ability & talent will leave you with empty hands. Even Palmer realized that despite all his gifts he had to make training a science.

I watched his talent throw roost in 5 switchbacks in a row faster than Nico could even have the skill to react. Then I watched Nico come down those same turns, take an insanely high arcing line off of banks no one had touched & pedal out of them using technique & science. He beat Palm & Tomac by 6 seconds that day...but not with talent.
 

Fonzie18

Turbo Monkey
You do realize that at 15 years old, nico had a more advanced training regimen designed for him by top French National coaches who were more calculated & advanced at that time than most any other National program 15 years later.:disgust1:

This topic has already been discussed & EC & Stikman both chimed in on it. The fitness regimens of guys like Steve Peat, Sam Hill, Eric Carter, Brian Lopes & Myles Rockwell were what made them winners rather than "podium" placers.

So is it a coincidence that Minnarr has one of the top coaches in all of cycling? I don't even have to read the article to agree with Hamilton. When you race in a sport decided my .100's of seconds, natural ability & talent will leave you with empty hands. Even Palmer realized that despite all his gifts he had to make training a science.

I watched his talent throw roost in 5 switchbacks in a row faster than Nico could even have the skill to react. Then I watched Nico come down those same turns, take an insanely high arcing line off of banks no one had touched & pedal out of them using technique & science. He beat Palm & Tomac by 6 seconds that day...but not with talent.

Nico won cuz he was not doing cutties in the turns. I'm sure he could roost like Palmer if he wanted.
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,998
702
SLO
You do realize that at 15 years old, nico had a more advanced training regimen designed for him by top French National coaches who were more calculated & advanced at that time than most any other National program 15 years later.:disgust1:

This topic has already been discussed & EC & Stikman both chimed in on it. The fitness regimens of guys like Steve Peat, Sam Hill, Eric Carter, Brian Lopes & Myles Rockwell were what made them winners rather than "podium" placers.

So is it a coincidence that Minnarr has one of the top coaches in all of cycling? I don't even have to read the article to agree with Hamilton. When you race in a sport decided my .100's of seconds, natural ability & talent will leave you with empty hands. Even Palmer realized that despite all his gifts he had to make training a science.

I watched his talent throw roost in 5 switchbacks in a row faster than Nico could even have the skill to react. Then I watched Nico come down those same turns, take an insanely high arcing line off of banks no one had touched & pedal out of them using technique & science. He beat Palm & Tomac by 6 seconds that day...but not with talent.

Sorry but you R right in some respects. But look at this when I raced I was Ok not great usually around top 10. Now I didnt have strategy, technique or a coach. So if I went to a coach for say a year or two you actually think I would be able to podium in Pro category. Sorry ain't gonna happen. This is a fine example for those that are the fastest, there are about 10 of them in the world. But the average American DH pro can do well in USA on talent alone. Richard Lancaster is classic example his first DH race he shows up with a HT XC bike. Tatoo Lou is there in his factory kit. When all times are posted Richard was up about 6 seconds on him in the sport class, in his first MTB race. That was from talent not coaching and Lou was PISSED. I realize at that level to compete strenght and techniques training will reward greatly but I would rather have David Bailey skill than say RC training. Guess I am a lazy American sorry. A friend of mine at the last Hangtown 500CC outdoor national got in the top 15 no support, not trainer just a brilliant ability to ride a bike MX bike well. Maybe if he had a coach he could of broken the top 10 in fact I am almost certain. But again talent is more important than a training regiment. AT least until a certain level is reached!
 

c2001

Paparazzi
Aug 10, 2001
1,093
0
where everyone is
for any real, long-term success coaching is needed. occasional results might happen on the solo program, but like everyone has said, training schedule, confidence and mindset come from consistency and accountability. think of a coach as an accountabili-buddy. (south park quote : )
 

Arkayne

I come bearing GIFs
May 10, 2005
3,738
15
SoCal
Ahhh good old Gene. I took his dh clinic last year and my ability went up 200%. Best $ I've ever spent.
 
Its very interesting, growing up a ski racer, everyone had coaches and you never outgrew that, but on bikes everyone thinks they know how to ride one. Coaches are very important for cycling, gene is a great coach and always willing to put in a tip or two even without receiving a paycheck unlike some other coaches I know of
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,155
355
Roanoke, VA
Where's the Marlbro Man, bro?

American DH racers desperately need to get over the "rugged individualist" Macho-Man Randy Savage bull**** image. Even Jesus can't herd all the moto-clone sheeple at DH races on this continent.

Pull your pants up, put a bend in the brim of your cap, put down the caffeinated sugar water, and act like a god-damned bike racer.

Balls and Talent are ****ing worthless....
Without real training and preparation. Unless all you care about is winning the Special Olympics...
 

Pegboy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2003
1,139
27
New Hamp-sha
The theory that bike racing(DH) would not significantly benefit from coaches just doesn't hold water. I think anyone who holds this oppinion has never worked with a professional level coach.

To say moto or DH require skillsets that can't be siginificantly improved through coaching is ill-logical. In thinking that repetition and natural skill are the most important element, why would running/sprinting, swimming, road cycling, skiing ect. have coaches? Just get out there and use that natural talent, and keep pushing as hard as possible...

The sport is still in its infantile stages...it will happen. The problem is funding. Coming up through the ranks is hard enough without paying for coaches and trainers, but I guarentee it would happen quicker with them.

In the mean time, watching the Earthed series and riding will probably cut it...
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
and I bet you're still running around at races with a bullhorn and a toy radar gun :busted:
Which reminded me that there used to be some good comedy following Mickey around so I did some google searches, but nothing too funny pulled up. One very EERIE picture pulled up though. See if you can spot the "sign"..

http://www.mountainbikeracer.com/racerprofiles/display.php?id=1000513

It even has a great "last remark" on dear old Mickey:
Do you have any suggestions for Beginner racers?

BUY A ROAD BIKE! There is no way to get quality training or recovery riding mountain bikes, If you're serious about racing get a coach, it's worth it! Also don't be afraid to try all sorts of different disciplines, contrary to what all the magazines say roadies aren't elitists, BMX isn't just for kids, and you don't have to be a pierced yahoo to race DH.
 

ekozy39

Monkey
Apr 27, 2005
312
0
Which reminded me that there used to be some good comedy following Mickey around so I did some google searches, but nothing too funny pulled up. One very EERIE picture pulled up though. See if you can spot the "sign"..

http://www.mountainbikeracer.com/racerprofiles/display.php?id=1000513

It even has a great "last remark" on dear old Mickey:
I think the thing about this interview is he is talking about SKILLS as something completely different than fitness, or mental. No one is arguing a fitness coach is valuable. He is suggesting US riders lack SKILL, and that someone like him can teach that..

"1. lack of mastery of the fundamentals 2. Not strong enough mentally and 3. lack of experience. If you think about it, success in downhill racing (and any sport) has these main factors (in no particular order) Skill, Strength and Fitness, Mental Game and Experience. I seriously doubt the top riders at the worlds are in that much better shape than the US racers (to make up 20 seconds in a 3 minute race, takes more than just a fitness edge) leaving us with skill, mental game and experience as the biggest factors in the US racers poor showing"

You just can't teach the core, instinctive, and natural skills required to be successful on a WC level.
 

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
The theory that bike racing(DH) would not significantly benefit from coaches just doesn't hold water. I think anyone who holds this oppinion has never worked with a professional level coach.
That's my question - for all those bashing coaching for competitive dh - how many of you have tried it? And then for anyone questioning whether or not it will make the difference, it all depends on how receptive you are to the coaches advice.
Saying that if you got coaching, and don't make the podium is leaving out a lot of variables - namely, dedication and years of experience. Those who start early and get coaching will be at the top (if they have the drive) in every sport. Those who try to do it solo and later in life will pretty much always come up short...
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
You just can't teach the core, instinctive, and natural skills required to be successful on a WC level.
What makes downhill racing so special that it is only natural talent that determines the top racers?

Why race? Sounds like after you do one race you have shown what you naturally have and that is all you have. So we just need to race each other once to see where we stand. After that there is nothing you can do to improve.

If you can teach yourself the things you need to do to go faster a coach can help you learn faster and avoid the trial and error step. Then the coach can also teach you somethings you might never have figured out on your own allowing to to achieve even more.

Think about what you need to do to go through a corner fast. All the things you tell yourself you need to do are things a coach can teach you(these are not just instinctive and natural things). A skilled coach can also watch you and see if you are doing them correctly and if there are other things you could do. No matter how good you are or think you are there is more you can do to become faster. First you need to figure out what you need to do and have the mindset to work to make it happen.
 
Sorry but you R right in some respects. But look at this when I raced I was Ok not great usually around top 10. Now I didnt have strategy, technique or a coach. So if I went to a coach for say a year or two you actually think I would be able to podium in Pro category. Sorry ain't gonna happen./QUOTE]

No, I don't think if you had gotten a coach for a year or two you would of been getting top 3 in pro, not with your attitude toward your own abilities, by writing this you have just demonstrated that you have set limitations on yourself, and that podium pro finish is beyond your own perceived limitations.
I still do believe though that if you were able to clear your mind of any and all limitations you have placed on yourself and were dedicated to work for it over a multi year time period, then there is a great chance that you could of broken into that pro podium result, especially if you had a good coach helping you along the way.
Not saying that this would of been logistically possible with your lifestyle, work, family life etc. Thats another story. But I believe that just about every human has it within them to rise to the top.

One of my favorite quotes
"There are two types of people in this world, those that believe they can, and those that believe they can't, they're both right."
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,998
702
SLO
I am not bashing coaching in any way. I think it can help many people. After reading my posts maybe it sounded that way? My point was a natural ability will be needed as well to become a top contender. I think riding with faster riders, coaching, and fitness will pay back in positive ways overall. But just from the start there are those who are gifted at what they do and they will have an "easier" time of it compared to those that are not gifted in that same way. Does that make sense?
 

ekozy39

Monkey
Apr 27, 2005
312
0
What makes downhill racing so special that it is only natural talent that determines the top racers?
It's not just DH, it's like that in every sport. Don't minimize the idea that some people are just naturally gifted. I'm not saying it's ONLY natural talent, but that's the difference between 2 kids coming out of Gene's program, and why one of them will be 15 seconds faster than the other..

Why do you think that road cycling has so much doping. There are riders that have done EVERYTHING physically and mentally possible to reach that elite level and it's not something that can be bought or taught.

Ask any ski, tennis, swim coach and they will all tell you the same thing about talented athletes. They have IT, and the coach simply refines that to give them the extra 10% to make them world class.
 

al-irl

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
1,086
0
A, A
I'm not knocking the coaching thing. Infact I'm all in favour of it, I just don't think its the only reason for no really big name riders comming from the states in the last few years. Ill use Ben Reid as an example. He's been fairly competitive at the world cups over this and last season getting top 20 places on a consitant basis. He gets very little suport from the Irish cycling boddies even though he is by far the highest world ranked cyclist of any description we have. His nearest big mountains with propper lift access other than Fort William in Scotland is France. He has no full time coach just the likes of Glynn O'Brien and John Lawlor who looked out for him from the time he was a Junior. He's a very dedicated and tallented guy who is extreamly focused and has had to be to get to where he is. Coaching doesn't give you any of that it has to come from the rider.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,514
7,058
Colorado
The theory that bike racing(DH) would not significantly benefit from coaches just doesn't hold water. I think anyone who holds this oppinion has never worked with a professional level coach.

To say moto or DH require skillsets that can't be siginificantly improved through coaching is ill-logical. In thinking that repetition and natural skill are the most important element, why would running/sprinting, swimming, road cycling, skiing ect. have coaches? Just get out there and use that natural talent, and keep pushing as hard as possible...

The sport is still in its infantile stages...it will happen. The problem is funding. Coming up through the ranks is hard enough without paying for coaches and trainers, but I guarentee it would happen quicker with them.

In the mean time, watching the Earthed series and riding will probably cut it...
When I was racing I went from beginner to mid-sport in one season on talent. I went from mid-sport to top-20 expert in a season by getting coaching from a faster rider who taught me how to pedal properly and started teaching me how to turn. I went from top-20 to top-10 over two seasons through lots of training and fitness improvements. I went from top-10 expert to semipro in three races because I got coaching from Shaums.

He took my raw talent, balls, and fitness then taught me how to turn. He also taught me how to look for lines, that might not be faster, but let you exit with more speed. That is what coaching is for. The fine tuning.
 

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,861
4,157
Copenhagen, Denmark
To have to argue a coach is a good idea to somebody almost seems like a lost battle. Look at all other sports and everybody uses coaches. Tiger Woods have a coach and the list goes on of any other top athlete.