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i just realised that i like square profile tires.

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by dhkid, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    well, if you are lazy to read on, recommend me some tires which have nice square profiles. (i am using 823 rims)

    anyways, as some of you might know, i am a tire whore. i was riding last week with a mate, and we switched bikes, his bike using 2.35 minions which had a nice square profile, my bike using comp 24's. it was muddy, but both tires weren't shedding mud but once you get the minions on the the side knobs they bite!! the 24's just plain weren't working. (i dont blame them, i am just too lazy to change tires at the moment)

    i already knew this subconsciously, but its just one of those things where it suddenly hits you and a light bulb goes off.

    also lee on leelikesbikes.com wrote an article on it a while back too. round profile tires are more drifty, but give way slowly. square tires dig in, but when they give way they get a bit sketch.

    one of my favorite tires are cut down wet screams, in the wet and dry, i can lean them down much further then with any other tire. (well maybe barracuda's in dry conditions come close) they just dig in!! and i realized that they have a very square profile.

    besides the other option of changing to heavy wide rims. what tires can you recommend i try?


    here is the list of tires that i have used (and continue to use):
    maxxis:
    high roller 2.5 ust
    minion 2.5 ust (both have very round profiles, wish they were not now)
    wet scream 2.5 ust (full length knobs)
    wet scream 2.5 (cut down)
    michelin:
    comp 24 2.2
    comp 16 2.2
    hutchinson:
    barracuda 2.5 (really want to get a 2.3 now)
    intense:
    dh fro 2.35
     

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  2. buildyourown

    buildyourown Turbo Monkey

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    Mobsters. I know they don't make them anymore but you can still buy them online. Some people hate them because they just don't corner very well unless you really lean the bike over.
     
  3. Kanye West

    Kanye West 220# bag of hacktastic

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    Chunders have stiffer sideknobs than all of those and have a bit flatter profile than Minions or Highrollers in the 2.5.
     
  4. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Just get minions.

    Your bike only needs two tires ;)
     
  5. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    Onza porcupines
     
  6. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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  7. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    i actually can get my hands on some mobsters, my lbs back home has them for some weird reason. same place i got my 2.5 wet screams from too.

    the specialized chunder's look a lot like barracuda's. the muddy marry's look nice, long row of side knobs!!

    keep them coming.

    you obviously dont ride in a wide range of conditions. missing out mate. and besides, minions suck on off camber stuff.
     
  8. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    The edge on the Mobsters seems to collapse when you lean on them pretty good....
     
  9. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You should be more clueless.

    It's funny.
     
  10. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    care to explain? if you are happy running minions for everything it probably means that you dont see too much mud.
     
  11. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    I have ridden minions in pretty much every condition imaginable. Dry east coast hardpack, wet east coast mud, loose east coast dirt, snow, ice, west coast hard pack, sand, all kinds of rocks, water, grass, you name it. Well, maybe not lava or moon dust, but I think you get the idea. They have worked wonderfully, EVERYWHERE. FWIW they are the 2.5's (actually 2.35) in super tacky compound.
     
  12. srphillips89

    srphillips89 Monkey

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    Same here, and I don't have to much trouble on off cambers either.
     
  13. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    well, i have ridden in conditions where only wet screams/ mud 3's would work.

    ok, you could run high rollers/ comp 16s or something similar, and if you ride fast enough for it to shed the mud. but it still doesn't offer as much grip as a spike would.

    my point is that you probably could run a minion is mud, but there are other tires out there which would work better in those certain conditions.

    i like changing tires, depending on my mood and what conditions are present. and i choose the tire that will get the job done best at the time.

    that sometimes means putting a high roller semi slick on the rear for the fun factor.:biggrin:

    a pic of the worse conditions i have raced in, volcanic ash, was fine when it was soaking wet, but it dried up just enough to be the stickiest clay i have ever come across.


    one more:
     
  14. Arkayne

    Arkayne I come bearing GIFs

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    I'm trying out a square profile fr/rr and really like it for the rear. I've always run round up front so it's taking some time to get used to. So far, I'm 50/50 for a square up front.
     
  15. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    i like to lean my bike down and stay in the middle of my bike, so its pretty even on both tires. like both tires to have similar amounts of grip.

    dont understand people who run a smaller tire in the rear, i just end up having to be over the front the bike loads. otherwise the rear will drift too much and you loose way too much speed.

    railing corner is where its at.
     
  16. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    No need.


    You already know everything. :)


    And at such a ripe young age too. I mean most kids just act like they know everything. But you actually do!


    Just wait till all those guys running a smaller tire in the rear actually learn what railing a corner is. Because as it stands, they couldn't possibly know.
     
  17. ronan

    ronan Monkey

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    lookin sexy in the lycra shorts
     
  18. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    I've ridden in 4 inches of snow on top of a layer of leaves on top of a layer of nice sloppy mud. My minions were as ok as a tire could be given the conditions. I'm sure that wet screams would've been better, but how much? Its one of those situations where nothing really excels.
     
  19. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    ohhh... i am always wary of sarcasm and to be honest i not the sharpest tool in the box when it comes to that.

    anyways, cheers. i need to get my name changed one of these days. wish i was still a kid.
     
  20. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    not me, you wouldn't catch me dead in lyra. well, not showing thats for sure.

    this is me at that race, during pratice.
     
  21. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    I do not completely understand this.
    You lean over to the front more when you used a smaller rear tyre? your weight bias shouldnt change when you put on a smaller rear tyre. The idea of the smaller rear tyre is to create a warning system where your rear tyres starts to drift before your front washes out. (well, that was my idea about smaller rear tyre)

    I dont want to say you are wrong or that I am right, just want to get more insight in tyres and cornering and get a discussion going.
     
  22. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    edit: forgot to give a clear reply to you question, imo, the whole weight your wheels so that they can dig in is for absolute beginners that dont trust their tires at all. when you push your tires to their limit of traction (when the start drifting) which ever tire you have more weight on will break loose first. (well, except proper cutties, but thats a whole different topic.)


    no prob man, i love discussion. just that they tend to go down hill quick. (ha ha ha)

    anyways, for cornering, the way i look at is you want to use both tires you have in the most efficient way. that would mean using (roughly) equal amounts of traction from each tire. in real life you will weight your rear tire a bit more so that if gives way first. that would give you your warning sign.

    IMO, most people ride way too far over the front of their bikes. thats why they need a rear tire with less traction to give way first.

    if you just be in the middle* of your bike, (ever so slightly rear bias) you will use both tires efficiently, and the rear will break traction first. so if the rider can already do that, why physically limit the traction on the rear (by using a smaller tire) when more is available?

    of course, you could also debate that you could use bigger tires/ gripper tires, but let just say you are using the most ideal tires already to simplifly the argument.



    *when i say middle, it mean where the center of traction is. not numerically the middle between the two tires per say. best way to find this 'middle' is just go corner on some sand or similar surface that you will loose traction easily on. take long corners, coz short ones might be effected by weight transfer and stuff like that. if your front tire washes out, shift your weight back. once the rear starts drifting before the front, then you know you are rear wheel bias now. its very minute changes on the bike in terms of body position, but is a huge difference on how the corner will turn out.

    all this is assuming you know how to corner properly in the first place, leaning the bike in, hands light, weight your outside pedal inside grip, rotate your hips.

    sorry, geek out. :biggrin:
     
  23. Arkayne

    Arkayne I come bearing GIFs

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  24. DirtyMike

    DirtyMike Turbo Fluffer

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    Rolling back to the original post, Two tires I really like with a nice squared off profile are Of coarse Maxxis Minions, and The Sp ED Chunders. I think the 2ply Minions hold up a little better, but both have excellent traction and teh chunder weighs less.
     
  25. danielsapp414

    danielsapp414 Monkey

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    if you spray your entire bike with pam, the mud won't stick, but if you're going too slow to throw it off then it doesn't matter anyways.
     
  26. SuboptimusPrime

    SuboptimusPrime Turbo Monkey

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    Really? My experience is exactly the opposite. It seems to me that more weight over a tire leads to more friction and better traction...
     
  27. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    I was stupid.


    Now I'm an idiot.
     
  28. BikeMike

    BikeMike Monkey

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    Who opened up the can of awesome in here?
     
  29. Dave-B

    Dave-B Chimp

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    2.5 minion dhf up front and 2.35 minion dhf on the rear for dry to damp conditions, 2.5 wet screams cut for damp to wet conditions and not cut for when its real ****ty or on wet grass.
     
  30. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    well, i used ust minions, and they are round. what rims are you running them on? coz that makes a big difference.

    i wont bother with the chunders since they are so close to barracuda's
     
  31. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Panaracers with the red tread will make you faster and instead of giving way early they leave a red burnout that you can just look behind and see if you are drifting. Plus if you lock the brakes the red tire smoke smells like cherries!
     
  32. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    goin back to cali, cali, cali, goin back to cali!
    I have officially been lobotomized via reading this, Ill og to my corner and drool now!

    BTW: Kidwoo rocks! :beerjam:
     
  33. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    Owk, I just realized that with square profile you dont mean that the shape of the nobs(is that correct) should be square.
    I will see if I can take a picture of my muddy marrys on a en521 rims so you can see for yourself if they are square enough.

    If you just look at Ffriction=fnormal*frictioncoefficient that more weight on the wheel means more grip. But that only goes for surfaces that show little deformation, as steel on steel. With rubber to sand, this doesnt apply I guess.
    could it have to do with the viscosity of sand. Suppose that mud behaves like a bingham fluid. That would mean that you have massive amount of grip until a certain break point, once you go over that point you drift very easily. So if you try to distribute the weight evenly over the tyres you get maximum grip. (could be wrong though fluid mechanics isn't my best subject)
     
  34. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    to be honest, i dont really know what the hell is going on when trying to explain it in numbers.

    but just go out and try to corner on a loose surface like sand, and it would soon be obvious.

    this is what i have found after falling flat on my face many times. basically going out to a corner and only change your weight distribution and see what the results are.
     
  35. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    Sounds like you need to do a vehicle handling course and understand how mass distribution and suspension affect grip... there isn't a static explanation, it's all about dynamic response and delay.

    I also think many people don't understand the big changes in tyre reaction forces that subtle changes in body position make. Get a bathroom scale out, and put it under one wheel of your bike while you're sitting on the bike with your hands on the bars, arms straight. See what the reading is. Then stand up and move around a few different positions and see what the difference in readings is. Relatively small changes in position can change the force your tyre is applying to the ground by 10-15kgf easily, let alone the massive alterations the tyres see when you're throwing your weight around.

    This is truly THE most complex part of mountain bike theory/analysis... gross generalisations are absolutely meaningless here. Even motorcycle handling theory is simple compared to this.

    BTW, anyone who thinks Minions suck on off camber is loopy - they're one of the best tyres available for that.
     
  36. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    well, i use the term suck loosely. my bad, they dont suck by any means. just that they are tires out there that do better on off camber stuff, ie a high roller.
     
  37. pelo

    pelo Monkey

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    I´m with the Kid, minion is ****e in the mud.
     
  38. pelo

    pelo Monkey

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    That is some time ago... My girlfriend still has them. She doesn´t ride much...
     
  39. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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    I have been riding an uncut Wet Scream 2.5 up front and a Syncros BHT 2.5 Front in the back lately and loving it. I ride lots of steep, wet, off camber stuff and this combo seems to work well for me. When it starts to dry up then I run 2 front Syncros 2.5s.

    Regarding Minion Fronts, they are sweet until the side knobs start to show signs of wear and then I don't think they hook up so well. I used to really like those in the off camber but then started wearing out the side knobs too fast when the center knobs were still new. I have not yet tried the 3c minion.
     
  40. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    Way to stick to your guns.
    Why don't you let us tell you how your tires are working for you?:biggrin: