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I like tyhis cop in this video better.

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Most cops do it right all the time. The ones who dont make the headlines, and give Silver forum fodder...
Hey, I don't get a blowjob and a story in the paper for doing my job everyday.

And I don't blow away family dogs and freak out a police officer so much that he decides to hang around just in case the sherrifs get an itchy trigger finger:

The scene at the house was so terrible and odd to Berwyn Heights officer Johnson that he planted himself in the living room. He couldn't see a search warrant posted anywhere. The mayor looked so vulnerable that Johnson wanted to make sure nothing even worse happened to him, such as getting shot. "Not that I didn't trust the police," Johnson would later say. "But I wanted to personally witness what is going to happen to my mayor, so if they try to say this guy went for a gun -- and he didn't -- it's not going to happen on my watch."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302935_5.html?sid=ST2009020400177

God forbid something like that, or terrorizing a young child and shooting the family dogs gets anything but full support from the populace, right?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Most cops do it right all the time. The ones who dont make the headlines, and give Silver forum fodder...
To give you another idea of how ****ing stupid this thinking is, I should point out that most of BP's deepwater oil rigs have not exploded and led to huge oil spills.

Sounds retarded (satirical usage, Sarah!) doesn't it?
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
To give you another idea of how ****ing stupid this thinking is, I should point out that most of BP's deepwater oil rigs have not exploded and led to huge oil spills.

Sounds retarded (satirical usage, Sarah!) doesn't it?
Stay on point...you realize that most cops do the right thing, dont you? Its the idiots that make headlines. Do you think we should get rid of all law enforcement? Who will protect your right to be crabby all the time?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Stay on point...you realize that most cops do the right thing, dont you? Its the idiots that make headlines. Do you think we should get rid of all law enforcement? Who will protect your right to be crabby all the time?
I have never advocated eliminating law enforcement.

Why do the exploding and sunk rigs get all the headlines? You're the one straying off point, my friend.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
Refer to my first post in this thread...
You serve an important function as the LE/BS metre, but you really come off as anti all LE, a cop hater. We tend to focus on the ones who do it wrong, abuse powers and such. But the fact is, for every one bad cop/exploding oil platform, there are many, many more that are doing it right, all the time. They, unfortunately, get little or no press coverage. I am quick to call out my fellow LEO types who stray, can you at least give credit to those who do it right? That is my point.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Refer to my first post in this thread...
You serve an important function as the LE/BS metre, but you really come off as anti all LE, a cop hater. We tend to focus on the ones who do it wrong, abuse powers and such. But the fact is, for every one bad cop/exploding oil platform, there are many, many more that are doing it right, all the time. They, unfortunately, get little or no press coverage. I am quick to call out my fellow LEO types who stray, can you at least give credit to those who do it right? That is my point.
My first post in this thread:

He actually should have shot the guy.

Stop projecting.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
...like you, of all Monkeys, were sincere? Please...

Depending on the situation (Had the suspect used the weapon or made further furtive movements towards removing the weapon from his waistband...) he could have shot him and the use of force would surely have been justified. I think the cop showed great restraint in not shooting, situational dynamics being considered, even though the jeans as part of the uniform are surely a crime against fashion...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
...like you, of all Monkeys, were sincere? Please...

Depending on the situation (Had the suspect used the weapon or made further furtive movements towards removing the weapon from his waistband...) he could have shot him and the use of force would surely have been justified. I think the cop showed great restraint in not shooting, situational dynamics being considered, even though the jeans as part of the uniform are surely a crime against fashion...
Yes, because when I think the police are out of line, I'm the last person to say anything...

:rolleyes:
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
Refer to my first post in this thread...
You serve an important function as the LE/BS metre, but you really come off as anti all LE, a cop hater. We tend to focus on the ones who do it wrong, abuse powers and such. But the fact is, for every one bad cop/exploding oil platform, there are many, many more that are doing it right, all the time. They, unfortunately, get little or no press coverage. I am quick to call out my fellow LEO types who stray, can you at least give credit to those who do it right? That is my point.
You are missing the point.

No one here (as far as I can tell) is saying that all cops are bad, or that "LE" should be abolished.

What we are saying is that using paramilitary tactics against civilians for warrants involving nonviolent crimes is D-U-M-B dumb.

I guarantee that you have friends or family who use "illegal drugs" even if you have no knowledge of it. They may be in all other ways perfect citizens. Would you have a problem with cops breaking down their door and shooting there pets on the grounds of a drug warrant? I think so.

These police tactics are over used by macho SWAT types who get their rocks off going on armed "raids" where the potential for mistakes and violence is very high because of the methods they choose.

Tell me the reason these warrants can't be served in daylight without the use of force.

Further more, it seems that all these horrible mistakes are swept under the table by "LE" in order to protect their own.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
You are missing the point.

No one here (as far as I can tell) is saying that all cops are bad, or that "LE" should be abolished.

What we are saying is that using paramilitary tactics against civilians for warrants involving nonviolent crimes is D-U-M-B dumb.

I guarantee that you have friends or family who use "illegal drugs" even if you have no knowledge of it. They may be in all other ways perfect citizens. Would you have a problem with cops breaking down their door and shooting there pets on the grounds of a drug warrant? I think so.

These police tactics are over used by macho SWAT types who get their rocks off going on armed "raids" where the potential for mistakes and violence is very high because of the methods they choose.

Tell me the reason these warrants can't be served in daylight without the use of force.

Further more, it seems that all these horrible mistakes are swept under the table by "LE" in order to protect their own.

You are missing the point. I was simply jousting w/ Silver, as he is (rightly...)very vocal about LEOs who go wrong...and my issue (As a Law Enforcement type...) is simply that all Cops cannot be painted with the same brush.

The use of paramilitary tactics is simply preparing for worst case scenarios. Yes, sometimes these tactics go wrong, just as things in life often go horribly wrong. Every day there are hunderds, if not more, warrants and raids executed in theis country. Most go off without a hitch. The ones we hear about are the ones that fail somehow, and unfortunately those that do can result in the death of someone. My attempting to justify tactics to someone such as yourself who seems predisposed to hating cops ("Macho SWAT types who get their rocks off...") would be a waste of time and energy.

I cannot and will not try to justify the tactics used by departments and officers of whos situations I have no immediate knowledge of. That is ludicrous. Nor can I respond to a non specific claim of mistakes being swept under the rug. I can simply offer you my assurnace that I have never participated in such events.

On the use of force issue, realize first that the first step in the use of force progression is societal controls, i.e people act good because society expects and directs them to. It then progresses to the fact that police exist, are physically present and all the way through contact controls up to the use of deadly force.

And no, I know no one who uses drugs and is a perfect citizen. They are all horrible peopel, total Manson types...:rolleyes:
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
You are missing the point. I was simply jousting w/ Silver, as he is (rightly...)very vocal about LEOs who go wrong...and my issue (As a Law Enforcement type...) is simply that all Cops cannot be painted with the same brush.
True. Not all cops are bad.

Like politicians, due to their position in society police must be ready to be held to a high standard and have their actions scrutinized by the public. After all, whats that old outdated expression? Something like "serve and protect".

The use of paramilitary tactics is simply preparing for worst case scenarios. Yes, sometimes these tactics go wrong, just as things in life often go horribly wrong. Every day there are hunderds, if not more, warrants and raids executed in theis country. Most go off without a hitch. The ones we hear about are the ones that fail somehow, and unfortunately those that do can result in the death of someone. My attempting to justify tactics to someone such as yourself who seems predisposed to hating cops ("Macho SWAT types who get their rocks off...") would be a waste of time and energy.

I cannot and will not try to justify the tactics used by departments and officers of whos situations I have no immediate knowledge of. That is ludicrous. Nor can I respond to a non specific claim of mistakes being swept under the rug. I can simply offer you my assurnace that I have never participated in such events.
Yes it is difficult to justify deploying a SWAT team against an unarmed family with two labs.

This is from silver's article and I think it sums up my problems with police "raids".

Balko writes: "Until the 1980s, SWAT teams and other paramilitary units were used sparingly, only in volatile, high-risk situations such as bank robberies or hostage situations. Likewise, 'no-knock' raids were generally used only in situations where innocent lives were determined to be at imminent risk. America's War on Drugs has spurred a significant rise in the numbers of such raids, to the point where in some jurisdictions drug warrants are only served by SWAT teams or similar paramilitary units, and the overwhelming numbers of SWAT deployments are to execute drug warrants."
If you think busting people for some drugz :eek: is worth putting civilians and police at risk then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinions.

BTW America is not going to win the "war on drugs" with SWAT raids.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
True. Not all cops are bad.
Most aren't. The problem stems (in my opinion) from the militarization of police, and a distinct lack of accountability for corrupt and illegal actions that is systemic. The problem also is present with prosecutors, who rarely face sanctions for gross misconduct, and are often rewarded for it.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
^^^ Werd.

Here's another quote from the article, the reference is to a supreme court ruling.

In Hudson, the court found that even when police make a clearly illegal no-knock raid, the evidence they seize can still be used against a defendant at trial.

"In other words, police can do what they did to us with impunity" Cheye concluded. "There are no consequences, not for them."
I'm gonna go ahead and call bullsh!t.
 
Last edited:

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
BTW America is not going to win the "war on drugs" with SWAT raids.
on this point, the muslim world has largely been "successful" with domestic consumption

but then again, goat ****ing is a helluva drug
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
Like politicians, due to their position in society police must be ready to be held to a high standard and have their actions scrutinized by the public. After all, whats that old outdated expression? Something like "serve and protect".

Yes it is difficult to justify deploying a SWAT team against an unarmed family with two labs.

If you think busting people for some drugz :eek: is worth putting civilians and police at risk then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinions.

BTW America is not going to win the "war on drugs" with SWAT raids.

Agreed on all points actually. Unfortunately, not all cops and/or politicains are ready, aware or willing to be held to a higher standard. Kind of like Catholic priests...but thats another kettle of fish.

Deploying a full SWAT element against an unarmed family with 2 dogs? Yep, sounds like overkill, but palnnign demands that you consider...
1. What is the record of said family?
2. Disposition of dogs?
3. Mission of raid?
4. Equipment available?
5. House or apartment to be raided?
6. Whats the neighborhood like?
7. Time of day for the raid? In an urban or suburban area you have many other civilian considerations to attend to. Traffic, onlookers, neighbors, neighbors kids etc.
Thats just off the top of my head...there are many more considerations...

And expending governmental time, money and energy on a few joints is a waste, youbetcha. On a major operation or dealer who is victimizing many, that is not.

Wanna win the war on drugs? Legalize the damn things. :thumb:
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Dont know about that...on my last trip down range, I met alot of addicts...mostly heroin. Dont believe the hype...
I actually couldn't figure out what $tinkle was trying to say, since there has been a lot out there about Iran's heroin problem. Something about it being stupidly cheap and transported through their country on it's way from Afghanistan to Europe...
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
Deploying a full SWAT element against an unarmed family with 2 dogs? Yep, sounds like overkill, but palnnign demands that you consider...
1. What is the record of said family?
2. Disposition of dogs?
3. Mission of raid?
4. Equipment available?
5. House or apartment to be raided?
6. Whats the neighborhood like?
7. Time of day for the raid? In an urban or suburban area you have many other civilian considerations to attend to. Traffic, onlookers, neighbors, neighbors kids etc.
Thats just off the top of my head...there are many more considerations...
Planning?

These guys didn't even know that they were raiding the mayor's house. They didn't notify the local police that they were conducting a raid.

Sounds to me like they sat around combing their mustaches until it was time to kick in someones door and start shooting dogs, fvck yeah!
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
Planning...

This is a failure on multiple points...that raid was a case study in what NOT to do and how NOT to handle a raid gone right or wrong. Poorly conceived and executed. Had the Sheriffs had a working relationship w/ the Police Chief, they could have/should have gone about it a whole different way. Had they investigated the address and its occupants, they could have should have gone about it in a whole different way.
Failure to collect intelligence, failure to plan, failure to admit when you have made a mistake. I tell my young troops, you can always take handcuffs off and say I am sorry, we had the wrong guy, thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

But as we know, hindsight is 20/20.