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I need some feedback...

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
So, if I were to start a bike company and the first thing we offered was a progressive geo dirt/park/street (OK, mostly dirt :)) bmx cruiser frame... do you think there would be any interest in that? Would you consider buying such a frame? How much would you be willing to pay for it?

I'm working on the specs for a prototype. Let me know what you think of the geo. The main differences between this and a traditional, race oriented cruiser would be the chain stay length, bb height, and head angle. BB and chain stays were calculated by basically taking what feels really good to me on 20s and 26s and going somewhere in between. I also compared the geo to the popular 24" mtbs, but tried to go a little more aggressive. So, it feels a little more like a 20. Let me know what you think!!

Edit: Integrated seat post clamp or not? Some people love them, some hate them.

 
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Hup

Chimp
Apr 6, 2007
92
0
Portland, OR
I think that would be a great frame and would be interested in buying one. I love BMX cruisers but never liked the long back ends and slack head angle. The 24" MTBs are great but there are only a couple of those frames I really like and I really don't want a suspension fork.

As for price if you could sell them around the same price point as a high end 20" BMX frame I think that would be something that would appeal to people. Fit's new cruiser is $550 for a complete with a full cromo frame. That is a pretty good deal for a decently spec'd bike.

Good luck with this. I hope it works out.

J
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
742
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
The one issue I have with bikes above 20"s is the lack of clearance for barspins and x-ups. Nothing worse than boosting a big jump, throwing the bars, only to have the tire smack your foot and stop spinning. Fix that, and I'd buy it.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
1,070
4
PA
I personally like the slacked head tube and seriously angled top tube. just more appealing to me and without compromising function.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
The one issue I have with bikes above 20"s is the lack of clearance for barspins and x-ups. Nothing worse than boosting a big jump, throwing the bars, only to have the tire smack your foot and stop spinning. Fix that, and I'd buy it.
Yeah, I definitely want it to clear. WCH has clearance on his Invisible Man cruiser, so we should be able to make it work. The steeper head angle should help with that.

Edit: Never mind on the steeper gives more clearance thing...
 
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Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
I personally like the slacked head tube and seriously angled top tube. just more appealing to me and without compromising function.
You mean you like how it is on most cruisers? Or, do you mean on this bike? We might be able to lower the seat tube height a little, but I want to be able to slam the seat without hitting the rear tire. Head angle will def be in the 73.5 to 74.5 range.
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,321
0
Rumson, NJ
I agree w/ Joel's point about clearance - make sure that work with a decent sized knobby up front.

Price - if you could get under $500 for a solid US made product, I don't think that would be out of line. My USB frame was around that and it's worth it IMO.

I can't promise I would buy one, but I do think there is a market with older guys. Probably small but I'm guessing there are people out there that want this exact thing. 4 years ago I would have been one of them - but just too old and need a sussy fork these days :D

I am more a non-integrated person myself - I like being able to run a King HS and a Profile seat clamp works and doesnt weigh much. But I'm semi-retro grouch so that might not mean much.
 

rpet

goofy for life
Jun 9, 2003
3,419
581
El Lay
Looks sweet, especially if you keep the cost more in the BMX range of things ($300-$400).

Please offer at least 2 sizes. Riders 5'6" and 6'6" need different size bikes for reals.
 

Stoked

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2004
1,813
1
LI, NY
i can take or leave intgr seat clamps. they're surprisingly hard to do right. i've seen a few break.

i don't think a steeper H/A will give you more x up clearance.

another obstacle we faced with the arcade 'test' joint was finding a capable fabricator that would pay as much attention to the build as we expected.

sounds like a cool project.
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,321
0
Rumson, NJ
not even a headset? come on you want to try it....ha

no wonder usb won't do int h/s :biggrin:
I had a couple of S&M's with integrated years ago. IDK, it seems slick and all but I just like having a seperate piece. The old headset seems to work plenty fine. And having a press makes it no problem popping H/S cups in.

I think Lee said they might go integrated - maybe more for what the market demands vs. what he actually likes.
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,321
0
Rumson, NJ
Oh yeah, I think you're right. I was visualizing steeper HA as being less fork rake.... doh!
That part of the frame is going to take some time figuring out. You might have to go 73.5 or even 73 - which I don't think is a bad thing. Shorter CS's and a good height BB seem more important to me.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
1,070
4
PA
Yeah, I definitely want it to clear. WCH has clearance on his Invisible Man cruiser, so we should be able to make it work. The steeper head angle should help with that.

I guess I'm looking at the angles the wrong way, but wouldn't a more slacked head tube angle give you more foot clearance? the more slacked the further your tire is out in front?Even with your bars spun half way, the front of your wheel i thought would be further away from your foot. I don't know, i don't do many bar spins.

As far a most cruisers. No, i don't like the style of most cruisers. The top tube looks to be almost parallel with the ground. i like a more angled top tube. The look of that cadd layout doesn't look bad at all.

What i have noticed, you get alot of older guys who decide to get back into racing bmx and they go either for the 20 inch or the 24" race cruiser. now you have a bunch of older somewhat out of shape guys and dads getting on these really light, very twitchy and fragile race cruisers which i think can give somebody without a lot of experience a low confidence level. The people i hear at the track to me seem like the only companies they know of are redline free agent and gt. It'd be great to see some older dudes getting on a more aggressive "thicker" bike and not need to worry about weight so much and ride something that's comfortable.

I guess I'm talking more about the race side of the spectrum only because that's what i've been doing the last few weeks but to me there's no reason you can't have a set up that feels just as fun and comfortable bunny hopping curbs, riding local trails, and hitting the local race track on something that rides like a cruiser.


this is my 26" cruiser and it's been fun so far.
 
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pnj

Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings
Aug 14, 2002
4,697
40
seattle
a slack head tube angle makes the front tire closer to your pedals when you turn the bars 180. steeper HTA keeps the tire closer to the center of the pivotal point (the center of the headtube). of course, you have to add the the rake of the fork into this equation....

dunno if that has been discussed, I didn't really read the whole thread... :D
 

opjones

Monkey
Aug 17, 2006
679
0
Detroit
a slack head tube angle makes the front tire closer to your pedals when you turn the bars 180. steeper HTA keeps the tire closer to the center of the pivotal point (the center of the headtube). of course, you have to add the the rake of the fork into this equation....

dunno if that has been discussed, I didn't really read the whole thread... :D
You should've read it all, because you would of realized that you were wrong.
 

pnj

Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings
Aug 14, 2002
4,697
40
seattle
You should've read it all, because you would of realized that you were wrong.
I'm not wrong. slack = less steep angle.

a tube w/ a less steep angle puts the front tire further infront of the bike. ....

:D ok. I am wrong..:poster_oops:*

I'm thinking of the fork rake.... ahaha. a mellow fork rake will bring the front tire closer to the feet when backwards.


*I can admit when I'm wrong. :monkey:
 

grom-dom

Turbo Monkey
Jun 27, 2006
1,141
0
Chapel Thrill
make a 20" too! and send me a proto to test! aha. i'll r&d it. go super trailsy, 74 ht, 71 st, 14" stays, 11.5 bb, high standover, no integrated clamp, integrated hs. do it!
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,061
6
austin
yes you should do it.

is 21.9" the effective top tube length (looks like it)? what is the actual ?

unless you get into race cruisers, it seems like none of the street cruiser companies are making an XL version. maybe i'm wrong, i can't think of one right now. 21.5"tt seems to be the standard. i could easily ride a 22.5".
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
yes you should do it.

is 21.9" the effective top tube length (looks like it)? what is the actual ?

unless you get into race cruisers, it seems like none of the street cruiser companies are making an XL version. maybe i'm wrong, i can't think of one right now. 21.5"tt seems to be the standard. i could easily ride a 22.5".
Yeah, 21.9 is the effective on the drawing. TT length is something we're still trying to figure out. I'm thinking the actual tt length will be somewhere between 21.5 and 22 on the prototypes. With this much of a sloped tt, a 22 might feel about the same as a 21.5 on most cruisers.

You really think you'd like a 22.5? That's about the same actual tt as my Simple... and that thing has crazy slope to it because of the taller suspension fork and small seat tube.

I'd like to offer two sizes, but not sure how that will work out cost wise. Plus, I'm not sure if I want to sell a short one that has foot clearance issues.
 

opjones

Monkey
Aug 17, 2006
679
0
Detroit
I'd like to offer two sizes, but not sure how that will work out cost wise. Plus, I'm not sure if I want to sell a short one that has foot clearance issues.
Steeper seat tube will make for more foot clearance also, maybe you could steepin' it up on the shorter verson? just a thought.
 

Savage_Animal

Monkey
Feb 3, 2008
658
0
Norcal
With the bike market the way it is today your going to have to do something completely off the hook or amazing to get this thing to sell; like an intergrated pivotal post or have the option for disk brakes or something.
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,061
6
austin
....

You really think you'd like a 22.5? ....
well the molly maguire is 22.2" and my MOB is 22.5".

I can say that both my widowmaker and my General Lee feel a little short in the cockpit area at 21.5" For a long time I ran an XXL DK inverted stem on the widowmaker to make it feel right. It's probably just me though (long legs 6'1"), because other people think of the widowmaker as being roomy compared to old Cyclecraft cruisers etc.

these comparisons would make more sense comparing "front end length" to eliminate the factor of seat tube angle /seat tube length affecting the comparison for effective / actual tt length. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193279&highlight=front+end+length




But I agree with Don, at this point I'm sold on susp. forks. Unless it's for my flatland cruiser, I'm not going back to rigid. So, seat stay 990 mounts, not cantis !!
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
at this point I'm sold on susp. forks. Unless it's for my flatland cruiser, I'm not going back to rigid.
Really? I'm burned out on suspension forks... I hate buying a fork that costs almost as much as my frame, I hate messing with them and trying to get them to work right, I hate breaking them and buying them again, and I really prefer the way rigid feels coming off of lips.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
With the bike market the way it is today your going to have to do something completely off the hook or amazing to get this thing to sell; like an intergrated pivotal post or have the option for disk brakes or something.
Why do you say that? As far as I know, there is really nothing like this available. Have you seen the bmx frame market lately? Everything is the same. This would be completely different for the bmx market. But, it's hard to say if people would buy into it or not.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
Thanks for the feedback so far guys, I appreciate it. Here's an updated drawing with some of the changes we've talked about. I like the idea of a little steeper SA and a lil bit slacker HA, plus a little longer front end. The closest measurement I can get off of BikeCAD to the "front end length" cmc is talking about is bb to front axle length. Anybody want to measure this on their cruiser and see how it compares? If you do, let me know you're actual tt length and if your foot clears for x-ups/barspins. Mikey complained about the frame color on the 1st drawing, so I made this one WestCoastHucker Pink (no, I'm not really going to make it pink).

 
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Iridemtb

Turbo Monkey
Feb 2, 2007
1,508
-1
http://eastern26.com/

^^^^^
Check that out. Look at the thunderbird and nighttrain. They have slightly similar geo. I actually own a night train, and I have to say, it feels like a bmx more than a mountain bike. It's great, easy to manual, and fun to jump.
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,061
6
austin
http://eastern26.com/

^^^^^
Check that out. Look at the thunderbird and nighttrain. They have slightly similar geo. I actually own a night train, and I have to say, it feels like a bmx more than a mountain bike. It's great, easy to manual, and fun to jump.
out of the Easterns, the Traildigger 24 is the closest to what Cru is talking about. so far i have not ridden one. i did ride the Traildigger 26 and that bike is F-ed!!!

 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
out of the Easterns, the Traildigger 24 is the closest to what Cru is talking about.
Yep, and that thing leaves a lot to be desired. It's not full chromo, the bb and tt seem too low, and it only comes in a complete. It seems like bmx companies have never really taken a "freestyle" cruiser seriously. But, maybe they don't have a reason to.
 

Savage_Animal

Monkey
Feb 3, 2008
658
0
Norcal
The Tonic seems like the closest thing


But it would be cool if you made a frame with amazing geo that can handle both rigid and sus (like the Tonic) Then make a line of bikes using the same frame but with different components sort of like most BMX companies do this with their completes.

Like for example

Trail Rig - 80mm Suspension fork, disk brake, small block 8s, lighter parts, harder gear ratio, no cross bar - just high rise bars

Street Rig - rigid fork, rim brakes, gyro

Begginer - 100mm Suspension fork with cheaper components thus lower price

And as far as the frame goes, I like the how my suburban has removable brake mounts and I love the intergrated seat post, also would love intergrated headset and Spanish bb.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
I love my Tonic, as close to perfection as I imagine there is. If I could change anything it would be the foot clearance issue. Xups are basically out the door. Also, there is a small amount of flex from the backend, I notice it only because I'm used to a very stiff BMX setup. Otherwise, I imagine the Tonic would be a great model.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
I'm familiar with the Tonics, USB Mollys, and other frames like that. They are awesome, and if you want suspension, I would go with one of those. But, I do not want suspension... and I know riders who do bmx type riding on all kinds of bikes that don't want suspension. Sure, you could put a rigid on one of those bikes... but, that'd be a crazy expensive cruiser. Plus, having taller bars, instead of a taller fork, will give you more room for turndowns, lookbacks, and such.

I can see that one of the things we'll have to overcome is the perceived coolness of 24" mtbmx compared to the un-coolness (or at least unfamiliarity) with bmx cruisers. Good thing WCH is cool!! :biggrin:
 
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