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I need some feedback...

i'm exited about this bike. as a former mtb exclusive dirt jumper of well over the past 10 years, i made the switch to a bmx cruiser as a dirt jump bike last december. i thought i would miss the suspension as well. due to the new(ish) direction of "slammed" forks, i was already using less and less suspension as the years went on until my last suspension fork was modded to 30mm and i was running 80psi per side, virtually no suspension at all. the slamming of said fork also gave my mtb a 74degree head angle, it was essentially a 26" bmx. i barely noticed the lack of suspension after the change in bikes and 90% of what i did notice was how much easier it was to ride the jumps and parks...

now, being and old school bmx'r myself(circa 80-90) i really had been bitten by the bmx bug again, but was apprehensive about going full blown 20" being older and larger than i was 20 years ago. i considered the cruiser route for a while. doing tons of homework on the available ones on the market. they were all cookie cutter duplicate copies of each other that, let's face it, are junk compared what is available in the 20" and 26" markets. old geo, crappy tubesets, most of them of them are even of objectionable quality in build and durability. most aren't even really built to handle abuse, built with more of the race consumer instead of the street/park/dj consumer. i chose mine because it most resembled modern "aggressive" 20" bmx geo and was made with a quality tubeset...

the bike is more fun than i could have imagined, but definitely needs a few tweaks in the 20" geo direction to be a better bike. i think this bike by cru will be the missing link us older or larger riders are looking for to achieve that "grown up" bmx bike feel in a 24" cruiser without having to settle for the standard racing inspired sleds that are available today. they are already turning away potential riders from them because of their unwillingness to update...
 
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cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,052
6
austin
I'm familiar with the Tonics, USB Mollys, and other frames like that. They are awesome, and if you want suspension, I would go with one of those. But, I do not want suspension... and I know riders who do bmx type riding on all kinds of bikes that don't want suspension. Sure, you could put a rigid on one of those bikes... but, that'd be a crazy expensive cruiser. Plus, having taller bars, instead of a taller fork, will give you more room for turndowns, lookbacks, and such.

I can see that one of the things we'll have to overcome is the perceived coolness of 24" mtbmx compared to the un-coolness (or at least unfamiliarity) with bmx cruisers. Good thing WCH is cool!! :biggrin:
i think there is not a perceived coolness of 24" mtbmx outside of the very small community of people, like this board, who know about them. i'm pretty sure i have the only USB in austin and i've not seen any tonics.

but everyone knows about the We The People Unified 24", SE Quadangle Looptail 24", the new FIT cruiser, the Federal cruiser, even heard of a custom-one-of-a-kind Liquor bikes replica of a Cyclecraft 24".

maybe other scenes are different. my point is i think the market is much bigger for the bmx 24" that Cru is talking about than for 24mtbmx.









 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,052
6
austin
anyone ever ridden this ?

2003 Brooklyn Machine Works 24.
appears to have a shorter back end and longer front end than normal, but it's hard to tell because the seat tube angle seems to be more laid back, making the front end look longer.



 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
anyone ever ridden this ?

2003 Brooklyn Machine Works 24.
appears to have a shorter back end and longer front end than normal, but it's hard to tell because the seat tube angle seems to be more laid back, making the front end look longer.
Looks like a higher bb and steeper ha, too. They don't make those anymore?

Yeah, I see what you're saying with the perception of the bikes. The mtb world and bmx world are very different. I would like to aim this more toward the bmx crowd, but I just don't know how open everyone will be to it.
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,052
6
austin
a 24" cruiser company can do well, but it seems like it will always be on small runs of high end frames.

in the 20" bmx world, 24" cruisers have been secondary. in racing, the cruiser class is always smaller.... and in street/ramp/park world, a cruiser is seen as an extra bike to ride to the store on (i think FEDERAL even marketed theirs that way, with the result that the FEDERAL cruiser was discontinued).

the Invisible Man cruiser was supposed to be a limited run collectible that would get snatched up. but when they came out, even with the hype, they were still on sale new for a year after on eBay.

i think unless some real high profile younger bmx pros start riding 24" bmx's on street and skatepark, it is going to be a specialty or 'old guy' market.

so the key is, if you start your company, you gotta get a lotta cash to sponsor some really kick ass 17 year old street and park riders. develop a market for big wheels. might as well make the top tube super low for the tailwhipping crowd.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
so the key is, if you start your company, you gotta get a lotta cash to sponsor some really kick ass 17 year old street and park riders. develop a market for big wheels. might as well make the top tube super low for the tailwhipping crowd.
Haha. What we really need are some trail rippers to start riding them... which is probably a little more feasible. Imagine Aitken, Bohan, or Foster ripping on one. They might even like it better for crazy events like elevation. Not likely to get a big name, though... well, maybe old man Foster. Haha.

Edit: Just saw your chase post... yeah, that'd be rad to see him blasting that thing
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,319
0
Rumson, NJ
I'm familiar with the Tonics, USB Mollys, and other frames like that. They are awesome, and if you want suspension, I would go with one of those. But, I do not want suspension... and I know riders who do bmx type riding on all kinds of bikes that don't want suspension. Sure, you could put a rigid on one of those bikes... but, that'd be a crazy expensive cruiser. Plus, having taller bars, instead of a taller fork, will give you more room for turndowns, lookbacks, and such.

I can see that one of the things we'll have to overcome is the perceived coolness of 24" mtbmx compared to the un-coolness (or at least unfamiliarity) with bmx cruisers. Good thing WCH is cool!! :biggrin:
So true - if you want a rigid fork go for a cruiser. After trying to relearn turndowns for a shiitload of years I can tell for a fact that a cruiser will be easier for them than a MTBMX like USB or Tonic. Can can's as well.

If someone dug up some old posts - like back in 2000, 2001, they'd hear me complaining about the bikes available and the want for a dialed cruiser. USB and Tonic's are awesome for someone like me but a good cruiser could fit a need. Like Cru said, sussy forks can be a pain in the ass not to mention the cost - I've thought quite a few times about going rigid (then note my comment up above).

There are a few guys a little younger than me that I think this cruiser would be perfect for. STA and TrailBoss guys if you know what I mean. Hell, one dude I know, I would absolutely love to see riding and back at the trails - he built the most perfect sets of doubles ever. And was always fun to ride with - his turndown transfers were a joy to watch. He's a dad now with hardly any free time, not to mention riding a 20" "kids" bike might be part of it too (as there is always time if you want something bad enough).
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,319
0
Rumson, NJ
anyone ever ridden this ?

2003 Brooklyn Machine Works 24.
appears to have a shorter back end and longer front end than normal, but it's hard to tell because the seat tube angle seems to be more laid back, making the front end look longer.

I had one:



Very nice bike, although the seat angle was kicked back too much.
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,319
0
Rumson, NJ
You know the geo specs on that thing? Did it clear for x-ups?
I might have them someplace... Can't remember about clearance for x's - I think so.

Just checked some old MS Excel files (yes I thought about this stuff too much). Here's what I had on record for the BMW and S&M Cruisers:

BMW
ST Length = 9"
TT (C to C) = 22"
HT Angle = 73 deg
ST Angle = 65 deg
CS length = 15-16"
BB Height = 13.5"
Wheelbase = 38-39"
Weight = 6lbs, 12oz


S&M Cruiser (1st Gen, RV model)
TT (C to C) = 21.5"
HT Angle = 72.5 deg
ST Angle = 71 deg
CS Lenght = 15.5-16.75"
BB Height = 12"
Wheelbase = 38-39.75"
Weight = 6 lbs
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,052
6
austin
I might have them someplace... Can't remember about clearance for x's - I think so.

Just checked some old MS Excel files (yes I thought about this stuff too much). Here's what I had on record for the BMW and S&M Cruisers:

BMW
ST Length = 9"
TT (C to C) = 22"
HT Angle = 73 deg
ST Angle = 65 deg
CS length = 15-16"
BB Height = 13.5"
Wheelbase = 38-39"
Weight = 6lbs, 12oz


S&M Cruiser (1st Gen, RV model)
TT (C to C) = 21.5"
HT Angle = 72.5 deg
ST Angle = 71 deg
CS Lenght = 15.5-16.75"
BB Height = 12"
Wheelbase = 38-39.75"
Weight = 6 lbs

wow, an inch and a half difference in bb height is a lot. makes you wonder how they were measuring it, and if there was a comparison problem with the tires being big verus lo-profile.

on my DK GENERAL LEE 24, the bb height is definitely a problem as a park bike. when you do a peg stall on ramp, the american bb and bottom of crank arm bolt area will hit the coping before both pegs will. and that is even with 2" diameter pegs in the front and 1 1/2" pegs in the rear..... so your bike will need a higher bb than a 2005/06 general lee.... i can measure it later if you want.
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,319
0
Rumson, NJ
wow, an inch and a half difference in bb height is a lot. makes you wonder how they were measuring it, and if there was a comparison problem with the tires being big verus lo-profile.
The BMW BB height was HIGH. And the S&M RV was for the most part a race frame but even then the 12" BB on that was a little higher than normal. I think Cru's 12.5" BB height will work nicely.

Another thing to note (I was thinking of this at the trails today while digging). Back when I had those cruisers the tire choices were pretty bad. Good trail, street, park tires for 24" haven't been out long. I think tires have a strong effect on how a bike rides - with some good choices out now, this will help this project as well.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
The BMW BB height was HIGH. And the S&M RV was for the most part a race frame but even then the 12" BB on that was a little higher than normal. I think Cru's 12.5" BB height will work nicely.

Another thing to note (I was thinking of this at the trails today while digging). Back when I had those cruisers the tire choices were pretty bad. Good trail, street, park tires for 24" haven't been out long. I think tires have a strong effect on how a bike rides - with some good choices out now, this will help this project as well.
Yeah, for the bb height, the first thing I did was take the difference between the 13" on my 2six and 11.8" on my 20, took two thirds of that and added it to the 11.8... that comes out to 12.6. I went a little lower since the 24" mtbmx frames are lower and most 26" dj frames don't have as high a bb as mine.

I know what you're saying with the tires. Yeah, it seems like there is pretty good selection now. I'm more concerned about the availability of quality forks and bars. I'll probably put the S&M race XLT and race bars on it.
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
5,350
2,947
Yakistan
Really? I'm burned out on suspension forks... I hate buying a fork that costs almost as much as my frame, I hate messing with them and trying to get them to work right, I hate breaking them and buying them again, and I really prefer the way rigid feels coming off of lips.
Coming from a bmx background, I would really on a bike like this. Like your saying spending 300-800 bones on a fork that wears out and needs to be tuned gets old. I've been thinking about going to a cruiser to get rid of the fork, plus I can build a pretty sweet bike for less than a grand easy. Having rear disc tabs though would be rad, I think.
 

cmc

Turbo Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
2,052
6
austin
. . . . Having rear disc tabs though would be rad, I think.

the disc brake question really depends on who your market is.... bmx'ers want 990's (or no brakes at all). bmx racers want v-brakes. and mtb'ers want disc.

street riding with ledges, rails, or skatepark riding with peg stalls... disc is a bad idea.

but for strictly trails, yeah, why not.... functionally, discs work the best.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
Yeah, and if you go with disc you have to go with mtb hub spacing. There may be a few bmx disc hubs, but not many. If we do it, they will probably have seat stay u-brakes like most bmx frames (I'd actually like to do chain stay mounts... but you'll be able to run an even smaller micro drive setup on 24s which could cause chain interference problems). My only question is if the routing and mounts should be removable... I'm sure somebody would want to do it... but a brakeless deuce quad? I can just imagine the sprfls dude...
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,319
0
Rumson, NJ
naw, set it up for 990's. Disc's = overkill, plus 135mm spacing. You're talking old to mid-school BMX'ers as your main market here.

V's are great too, my 2 year old could probably set them up to work well. But I just don't love how they look mounted underneath the seatstay. Not a bad solution, just not ideal, IMO.

Plus I love how the 990's feel for fuf's and stuff and if they can stop my 220lbs butt at the trails then they'll be fine for most anyone else.
 

newrider3

Monkey
Oct 13, 2007
212
0
Colorado
I love the stopping power that you can get from v's, but I like a lot of modulation in my brakes. I'm definitely interested in a frame like this, after trying out my friend's Haro x24. Jumped nice, but it was like manualling a freight train compared to my 20. I'm planning to build a frame of my design in metals at school once I get good at TIG.
 
Actual? That's pretty long.
not really, think about it...

something needs to be done to keep the wheelbase from being so short. my bike is 39"(vs the 37.44" of the pink cruiser) with 15.25" stays leaving me with a front center that is 23.75" (vs the pink 23.19") you would essentially be taking away another .56" away from my already minimal clearance. i dare say you will have serious foot/tire issues...
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
741
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Stop fvcking around and make a 23.5" - 24" TT so there is zero tire clearance issue. I fractured my forearm yesterday throwing a barspin on my Norco 4X because my toe caught the tire... fun. In my eyes, I'd LOVE to see a stupid long TT. I think it would ride sooo nice on big trails.
 
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t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
I'm frustrated with the toe thing as well. Not to Joe's point, I don't even bother to turn the front wheel. Its crazy, I have size 10 feet, I guess I don't see why that should be an issue. I have a 22" TT on my Tonic (effective, I believe), I love the way it rides, jumps, manuals, whatever. I like the flickability so I don't want to lose that, but something just a touch longer (.5-1" more clearance from pedal to tire) would be huge. Would that be a 22.3 or a 22.5, I don't know, I'm not a number and angles guy, but I'd love it if someone could hammer that one out. I've started riding my 20" a lot more on dirt just because I felt a bit limited on my 24", more stable BUT more limited.
 

Stoked

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2004
1,809
1
LI, NY
I'm frustrated with the toe thing as well. Not to Joe's point, I don't even bother to turn the front wheel. Its crazy, I have size 10 feet, I guess I don't see why that should be an issue. I have a 22" TT on my Tonic (effective, I believe), I love the way it rides, jumps, manuals, whatever. I like the flickability so I don't want to lose that, but something just a touch longer (.5-1" more clearance from pedal to tire) would be huge. Would that be a 22.3 or a 22.5, I don't know, I'm not a number and angles guy, but I'd love it if someone could hammer that one out. I've started riding my 20" a lot more on dirt just because I felt a bit limited on my 24", more stable BUT more limited.
really...we might have had this convo before but i'm good with my 170mm arms and 11 shoe. its close when i turn the wheel towards my foward foot, but not bad.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Ya, we have. I go towards my forward foot. When you do an x-up towards your back foot you have tons of space, you can even go a bit beyond 180 and not have an issue. When go you towards your front foot there is a lot less space. This can also be realized if you push your x's past 180, more around 270ish. I did one last night on my 20", pushing as far as I could, and due to smaller wheels I had no issue. My efforts would have been stopped abruptly on my 24".

I just saw your comment that you do them towards your front, and for that I would only wager that perhaps your front end is up a bit (putting your foot slightly lower and making more room) or you angle your foot enough some how not to have an option. I have done X-ups on my Tonic but I hit my foot every time and its a little scary bringing it back.

Its my fault, I never considered it to be an issue, it just felt more natural. I can do it opposite, but its super awkward feeling. One footed is always an option, but sometimes just doing the simple trick just works out better (and looks better IMO).
 
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Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
I hear what you guys are saying, but if we make a crazy long top tube, it may feel funky to ride. Nobody wants to be that stretched out and hunched over when riding. I want it to be the same riding position as say being on a 21" tt bmx with 8" bars. There has to be a way to make it work... I get clearance on my Simple and it has even bigger wheels.
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
741
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
I hear what you guys are saying, but if we make a crazy long top tube, it may feel funky to ride.
23.5" TT isn't gonna hunch you over that much then you already are. I mean it's only an inch. I'd be first in line for a 24" TT frame. And I bet it would ride great, especially on trails. For urban, it may be long, but a 24" option would be teh sick.