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I need some feedback...

opjones

Monkey
Aug 17, 2006
679
0
Detroit
I agree that it's annoying as f@#k hitting my feet when I try to x-up. I guess if that's an issue you want to clear, start out with a wheel base and chainstay length that will allow for clearance and mess with angle and lengths from there.
Also I know 1 guy locally who jumps/park strickly on his cruiser, just for your info.
 

newrider3

Monkey
Oct 13, 2007
215
0
Colorado
Playing around with Bikecad, I noticed steepening the seat tube (almost as steep as the ht) seemed to provide more foot clearance. This was on a design with a really steep HA. Mabey try that out?
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
Playing around with Bikecad, I noticed steepening the seat tube (almost as steep as the ht) seemed to provide more foot clearance. This was on a design with a really steep HA. Mabey try that out?
Yeah, but that's the same as just lengthening the top tube. It effects the ride the same way... unless you're sitting down. I prefer the look of a traditional 71 or 72 degree seat tube, so we'll probably leave it around there.
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
742
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Cru, if you wanna make this rig unique and something that people will be stoked on, you gotta think outside the box just a bit. Take my last bike purchase for example. I had a choice between a Jamis Parker and a Norco 4X. I really loved the way that the Jamis rode... however, the tire/toe scrub was rediculous. I liked the way the Norco 4X rode (just a little bit less than the jamis) but there was way more toe clearance for x-ups and barspins. I bought the Norco, hands down, just based on that.

Make the TT 24". People will love you for it. Don't try and make this thing like every other bmx 24 or it will be just another cruiser.

My .02
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
Cru, if you wanna make this rig unique and something that people will be stoked on, you gotta think outside the box just a bit. Take my last bike purchase for example. I had a choice between a Jamis Parker and a Norco 4X. I really loved the way that the Jamis rode... however, the tire/toe scrub was rediculous. I liked the way the Norco 4X rode (just a little bit less than the jamis) but there was way more toe clearance for x-ups and barspins. I bought the Norco, hands down, just based on that.

Make the TT 24". People will love you for it. Don't try and make this thing like every other bmx 24 or it will be just another cruiser.

My .02
I hear you cluckin' big chicken, but I just don't think a 24" tt will be necessary. The Invisible Man and Melm's Daily Driver both have 21.5" top tubes and they have enough clearance for most. So, if we make it a little longer than that... it should clear for everybody. Maybe an actual tt length in the 22 to 22.5 range. How tall are you? Do you know how crazy a 24" tt would feel? It would really put your weight up over your front wheel when it's supposed to be more over the back wheel on a bmx type bike. Maybe you would like it, but I know I wouldn't.

Also, you can't really directly compare the tt length of the 24" mtbmx's to this bike. The 21.9 on the fall guy would probably be like a 21.5 on a non-suspension 24.

Like I said, we'll have a proto or two, so we'll get it figured out.
 

jamesdc

Monkey
May 6, 2007
469
0
I think this is a pretty cool project. I'd be interested in one if i can get the right geo. I'd want a 69 degree HA based around a rigid fork[i'm also done with suspension on my dj bike], 12 inch bb height, v brake mounts, and a 23.5 inch actual toptube. Who are you getting go do the welding Jeremy?
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
I guess anyone questioning the power of an inch should try riding a 21" bmx bike and then try to drop down to a 20". Its crazy how much of a difference it is. I tried riding a 20.6 barcode and couldn't do it, .4" made a huge difference.

I agree with you Cru, a 24" would probably feel like riding a bus, you would truly be stretched.
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
742
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
I guess anyone questioning the power of an inch should try riding a 21" bmx bike and then try to drop down to a 20". Its crazy how much of a difference it is. I tried riding a 20.6 barcode and couldn't do it, .4" made a huge difference.

I agree with you Cru, a 24" would probably feel like riding a bus, you would truly be stretched.
What I'm saying is, if you don't think outside the box, what are you going to accomplish that's THAT much different from the new bmx freestyle cruisers that are already out there? And... "has enough clearance for most" is what I'm talking about that kinda drives me nuts. Make a duece quad that has ZERO clearance issues. That would set you apart from the rest right off the bat.

And if .4" difference made a bike unridable, then it's probably not the bike that's the issue. I own a 20" TT bmx, and a 21" TT bmx and have no problems on either. I personally prefer the longer bike. In fact, I could take it up another inch to 22 or 22.5 and be stoked. My buddy has a trailking with a 23" TT and he and I both agree that it would be nice to have another half inch to an inch up front for throwing barspins and x-ups.

And I'm only 5'10".

Just throwing some ideas out there for ya to think about...
 
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Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
What I'm saying is, if you don't think outside the box, what are you going to accomplish that's THAT much different from the new bmx freestyle cruisers that are already out there? And... "has enough clearance for most" is what I'm talking about that kinda drives me nuts. Make a duece quad that has ZERO clearance issues. That would set you apart from the rest right off the bat.

And if .4" difference made a bike unridable, then it's probably not the bike that's the issue. I own a 20" TT bmx, and a 21" TT bmx and have no problems on either. I personally prefer the longer bike. In fact, I could take it up another inch to 22 or 22.5 and be stoked. My buddy has a trailking with a 23" TT and he and I both agree that it would be nice to have another half inch to an inch up front for throwing barspins and x-ups.

And I'm only 5'10".

Just throwing some ideas out there for ya to think about...

I'm pretty sure this whole idea is a little outside the box... unless you get something custom made, there is nothing like this available right now.

Again, you can't compare the Trailking's 23" top tube to this. It has way more of a slope to it because it's designed around 26" wheels and a suspension fork. It would probably be the equivalent of 22 or less on this type of bike.

How about you start your own company, make a cruiser frame with a 24" top tube, then I'll test it for free.... and then tell you how much it sucks. :biggrin:

Edit: And I used to kind of think like you're thinking... that it'd be really hard to make a bike too long. But, then I actually rode a bike that was too long for awhile (and I'm tall). It was rideable, but it just wasn't as good a ride as a bike that fits.
 
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t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
And if .4" difference made a bike unridable, then it's probably not the bike that's the issue.
Joe, it wasn't unrideable, at all. Was it noticeably tighter, yes. I'm 5'11.5 :biggrin: so I wouldn't say I'm a small or excessively large person. A 21" just fits well. I guess when I read about a 24" tt would it be unrideable, no, and for doing x-ups and barspins I imagine it would be great. Flicking it around for a 360, well, might not be as smooth as a tighter frame but if anyone could make it work I'm sure you could. I guess I keep seeing that number and thinking about a stretched out XC bike and from when I started riding what a pain it was to jump on the thing (granted the height of the TT didn't make it anymore fun, not to mention the long backend).
 

don

Turbo Monkey
Nov 8, 2001
1,321
0
Rumson, NJ
With all the issues of foot clearance and TT length maybe that new 22" wheel isn't such a bad thing.
 

WestCoastHucker

Turbo Monkey
...And I used to kind of think like you're thinking... that it'd be really hard to make a bike too long. But, then I actually rode a bike that was too long for awhile (and I'm tall). It was rideable, but it just wasn't as good a ride as a bike that fits.
you've also said yourself that the major difference between the 2 bikes was that your first one had outdated geo compared to your new sled...
 

joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
742
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Cru,

I'm just saying, it's never been done (stupid long TT), and I know guys that would love to give it a try. Personally, when I ride, I am over the front end of my bike, so a long TT wouldn't bother me at all. Maybe it's because I have a vert riding background, or whatever, but I try not to stay too much over the cranks (weight wise) when I jump. I tend to be over the front end (for pump factor). When I said a 24" TT, I was sort of going overboard, but in the end, what I meant was that I HATE tire scrub, and whatever the answer was to end it, I am all for.

As for current 24's geo, the only one I have ridden was a MirraCo and it had clearance issues... my thought was why go 24 when you have this particular problem? I totally see the need for a dedicated trail slaying bmx 24. What I want to see is one that addresses the tire scrub issue altogether.

I am totally stoked on your idea, just throwing in some random thoughts. The reason I'm really, really pressing you on this is because this is something I have always wanted and am definitely interested in giving you my money for... :)
 
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joelalamo45

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
742
1
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Joe, it wasn't unrideable, at all. Was it noticeably tighter, yes. I'm 5'11.5 :biggrin: so I wouldn't say I'm a small or excessively large person. A 21" just fits well. I guess when I read about a 24" tt would it be unrideable, no, and for doing x-ups and barspins I imagine it would be great. Flicking it around for a 360, well, might not be as smooth as a tighter frame but if anyone could make it work I'm sure you could. I guess I keep seeing that number and thinking about a stretched out XC bike and from when I started riding what a pain it was to jump on the thing (granted the height of the TT didn't make it anymore fun, not to mention the long backend).

What I'm saying is, no one has made a bike like that, so how do you actually know it will ride like crap? I mean we're all being conceptual here, so why not throw out the idea of a really long TT to address a real issue with 24's? I may be way off, but then again, I may be right.
 

t1maglio

Monkey
Oct 29, 2001
855
0
southern wisconsin
Your right, we don't know. If I was in your situation and just getting an injury from this I would probably be looking to go overboard as well.

I wait intrigued for the results of this thread.
 

erastusboy

Monkey
Mar 5, 2003
470
0
Would you do 14mm dropouts?

I just started riding bmx so this is an interesting discussion but I do think maybe you need a better hook than just the geometry.

I think going straight bmx specs is whats up. Bmx hub spacing, removable 990 mounts, integrated headseat, spanish or mid bb the whole enchilad

Have you thought about starting with something like bars or other parts.I always hear people complaining about the limited bar choice for mtbmx. That way you could build your brand and become the 24" bmx brand that everyone would turn to.

I know it sounds kind of lame but especially in this kind of market, brand image is almost more important than product. It would definately be easier to have a message with a broader line than just a frame, but then there is a bunch of extra cost and stuff with developing each additional part.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
Would you do 14mm dropouts?

I just started riding bmx so this is an interesting discussion but I do think maybe you need a better hook than just the geometry.

I think going straight bmx specs is whats up. Bmx hub spacing, removable 990 mounts, integrated headseat, spanish or mid bb the whole enchilada
That's the plan, total bmx style. 14mm, bmx hub spacing, 990 mounts (maybe not removable, though), integrated HS, mid bb.

You're right about the brand image. But, I'm not rich, so if we do it, we'll have to start small.
 

erastusboy

Monkey
Mar 5, 2003
470
0
Should be a sick frame, I think I will stick with a straight 20" for now (I'm short and relatively young).

I think weight would be another place to look for some individuality, though if you use any decent tubing you will be way ahead of anything currently offered by bmx companies.

Maybe this will get me back on the big bike for street/trails. I'm psyched to see what comes out of this, major props for even thinking about starting your own company.

I'm pretty sure thats the way I want to go, I won't be happy until I am making my own products and running my own company.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
I just got done talking to the odyssey/sunday guys about it. I can't watch that vid right now, but I'm pretty sure that it has a 13.8 bb, 15.5 chainstay, and 21 tt... they basically just supersized a normal BMX frame.... not sure how that will work. But, it's cool to see that they're trying. They basically expressed the same frustration that we've had with most cruisers.... that nobody has really taken it seriosly. They plan to. They also have cruiser forks, bars, and 24" hazard lights.
 
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knowayback

Chimp
Sep 25, 2008
40
0
Got so exited by this post i just registered so i could chip in my two cents...!
Been waiting for a legit cruiser since i started riding bmx almost two years ago.
I'm 23 and 6'6" and as such feel far too small for the 20" i'm currently riding, but have tried some mtb 24" and just can't get on with the slack head angles and/or suspension forks, as for the current crop of cruiser bmxes most of them have a shorter toptube and longer stays than my current macneil deuce deuce 20" (22"tt, 14.75"cs) and seem like gimmicky cheapness!
Therefore the cruiser of my dreams would have:

22.3"toptube (center to center)
14.25"chainstays (slammed)
75 degree head angle
73 degree seat angle
12.3" bottom bracket
11"seattube (so as not to look like a scooter!)
Mid BB
Intergrated headset

I reckon theres a massive market for a big but nimble street/cruiser frame of high quality, as people would be drawn from both bmx and mtb - especially the tall and the old!!! i would definately buy one as long as the toptube was more than 22", the chainstays less than 14.75 and the head angle steeper than 73 degrees.
Can't wait to hear the final specs, cheers for the seed of hope!
 

Stoked

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2004
1,813
1
LI, NY
I just got done talking to the odyssey/sunday guys about it. I can't watch that vid right now, but I'm pretty sure that it has a 13.8 bb, 15.5 chainstay, and 21 tt... they basically just supersized a normal BMX frame.... not sure how that will work. But, it's cool to see that they're trying. They basically expressed the same frustration that we've had with most cruisers.... that nobody has really taken it seriosly. They plan to. They also have cruiser forks, bars, and 24" hazard lights.
wha wha what? is odyssey putting these into production? thats big...
 

newrider3

Monkey
Oct 13, 2007
215
0
Colorado
I think part of the problem is the "cruiser" moniker. I'll always know a big BMX as a cruiser, but most people think of the old rusty fat seat bike their grandma gets groceries on when someone mentions a cruiser.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,032
2
Hell Track
cool. did you get any specs on the sunday 24?
Well, it was a long week... everything is kind of a blur. Haha. But, I'm pretty sure he told me that on the prototypes (which those were) they had the same bb rise as their other frames. So, that would put it at 13.75. Chain stays were 15 something with a 74.5 HA. 21" top tube, 11" seat tube. They're not even sure how it will ride, because they haven't built one up, yet... so, it's definitely still a work in progress for them. They did say the forks will have clearance for 2.5" tires and that they plan to put taller, 6 or 7 inch, bars on it. I tried not to give him too much of the info we've been talking about over here... :biggrin:. I'm just stoked that they're actually taking a 24" frames seriously and that they may come out with 24" forks, bars, and hazard lights.