[DRB]

How about being human shoud be reason enough to grant them geneva convention rights?

Also, an insurgency movement is categorized as an organized resistance movement. So clearly, yes, they are as per convention 1. The 1977 protocols also clearly extend here to combatants bearing arms during an attack.

What's so funny is that the average Arab laughs that this is even being brought up. He views it as another example of how the West will eventually lose because they are unwilling to do what it takes to resolve the matter at hand. They, meaning the average Arab, as more respect for Israel then they do the West because the Jews fully understand an eye for eye.

You know why the terrorists have such a hard time operating in Saudi Arabia? Because they know if they get caught that life is going to suck for a very very long time and if they don't get caught but killed and sent to the virgins, life is going to suck for their entire family for a very very long time.

They view the Convention as a huge joke and can't believe that it even exists.

 

[Transcend]

I couldn't care less about the well-being of terrorists... it's the three points above that worry me.

Only the problem is that the US seems to like grabbing anyone remotely muslim lately and sending them to secret prisons with no sort of propsect of justive ever occuring. He MAY have at one time, dated a girl who was the 3rd cousing of a known terrorist. Grab him!

example: the case a few weeks ago of the guy in the us who canadian authorities fingered and was instantly deported to somewhere in the middle east and tortured. He had nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of terrorist anything. But hey, he was brown and muslim.

Then you just end up tortruing innocent civilians, which does matter. Let alone the fact, as you mentioned, it will incite yet more attacks.

Also, remember that next time there is an uproar due to a random American/Brit etc civi being snatched, tortured and eventually beheaded.

If you don't rise above their level, you are no better than they are. you can't very well trumpet freedom and democracy as your cause when you are secretly (well not anymore) sending people off to secret prisons with no trials and no crimes committed.

 

[Transcend]

What's so funny is that the average Arab laughs that this is even being brought up. He views it as another example of how the West will eventually lose because they are unwilling to do what it takes to resolve the matter at hand. They, meaning the average Arab, as more respect for Israel then they do the West because the Jews fully understand an eye for eye.

You know why the terrorists have such a hard time operating in Saudi Arabia? Because they know if they get caught that life is going to suck for a very very long time and if they don't get caught but killed and sent to the virgins, life is going to suck for their entire family for a very very long time.

They view the Convention as a huge joke and can't believe that it even exists.

Of course, this is perfectly true and I agree 100%. However, i also beleive (as I posted above) when you stoop to their level it's pretty hard to claim you are fighting for freedom and democracy etc, when you are , in reality, no better than a common thug.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Of course, this is perfectly true and I agree 100%. However, i also beleive (as I posted above) when you stoop to their level it's pretty hard to claim you are fighting for freedom and democracy etc, when you are , in reality, no better than a common thug.

Since when do "freedom" and "democracy" equal fairies and unicorns? Brutal tactics for brutal people I say.

I agree with you that they should be more selective, maybe waiting for some kind of legal "just cause" before pulling out fingernails, but when it comes to letting bombings occur because you're afraid of being too mean, well, that I dont agree with. Its a fine line, I know, but this is the real world, and these guys are worse than the "Christian Zealots" you constantly complain about. Theyll DIE for their god. Why not help them along?

 

[DRB]

Also, remember that next time there is an uproar due to a random American/Brit etc civi being snatched, tortured and eventually beheaded.

The two have nothing to do with each other at all. They, for the most part, don't target anything but civilians and other soft targets. The only time they didn't was when they went after the USS Cole.

Of course, this is perfectly true and I agree 100%. However, i also beleive (as I posted above) when you stoop to their level it's pretty hard to claim you are fighting for freedom and democracy etc, when you are , in reality, no better than a common thug.

What does getting dirty and fighting in a manner that is consistent and applicable to the enemy have to do with democracy and freedom. How does it make sense to let your enemy practice these techniques on those that aren't in a position to protect themselves? How does that line up with freedom and democracy?

Your arguements are naive and dangerous in today's world. Why don't you torture? For the number one reason Ohio gave. But even then you slap a guy around for a little bit with the fear that it'll go on for a long time and if he gives great if he doesn't, then move on.

Though we should just lie about it like the rest of our allies and move on. Then the emperor's clothes are just fine. The French are real sweethearts when it comes to taking care of terrorists in their care. At least here there is a debate and some level of honesty about it in the US.

 

[Transcend]

Freedom and democracy was probably a bad word choice, as I didn't mean it literally.

I meant in the new "freedom, democracy, religious right all that is good in the world, purveryor of justice" image that the current administration is trying to establish.

You know, where the US is full of good natured, Christian happy people who are out to quelch the forces of evil aka: the dirty, brown, Muslim folks in the middle east.

 

[Transcend]

The two have nothing to do with each other at all. They, for the most part, don't target anything but civilians and other soft targets.
.

And the US forces/intelligence services picking up Muslims off the street and shipping them off to Cuba with no trials or charges being brought isn't doing exactly this, how?

 

[DRB]

And the US forces/intelligence services picking up Muslims off the street and shipping them off to Cuba with no trials or charges being brought isn't doing exactly this, how?

Oh yeah they just randomly pick up brown folk for sh!ts and giggles. Yeah US troops never patrol for contact with enemy forces to pick a fight. Just scoop up those civillians willy nilly that's our way. Shoot if they have a gun US forces just run for our lives screaming "help me jesus, help me jesus"

Hell we can just kill them and get away with it..... oh wait....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/25/marines.court.martial/index.html

Oh no the UK is getting into the act now

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/25/iraq.terrorist.ap/index.html

I wonder if they knocked first and tried to give them the search warrant.

Edti:
Like I said we should just lie about it. When we are done put a bullet in them and then dump them where we found them, stick a gun in their hands and report it that way. They could just find some cops to help them set that into motion.

 

[Transcend]

gimme a break dude, you know full well that half the people in that prison probably never had a single thing to do with anything terrorist related, and are there due to circumstances alone. They know someone, or visited somehwere etc.

 

[DRB]

gimme a break dude, you know full well that half the people in that prison probably never had a single thing to do with anything terrorist related, and are there due to circumstances alone. They know someone, or visited somehwere etc.

Oh I know that about as well as you do. Again they just randomly haul unarmed innocent folk because that's easy.

 

[Transcend]

Yup, because shooting at an invading force in a country as part of an insurgency means one is a terrorist and not a POW. POWs retain certain rights that the USA doesn't seem to want to grant.

 

[Changleen]

DRB, you can argue the 'neccesity' of your torture and heavy-handedness all you like, the fact is the rest of the civilised world still thinks you're being an ignorant, despicable cvnt. There is a reason for that.

 

[$tinkle]

They view the Convention as a huge joke and can't believe that it even exists.

but wait, there's more:

Police to brief Muslims before terror raids

POLICE have agreed to consult a panel of Muslim leaders before mounting counter-terrorist raids or arrests. Members of the panel will offer their assessment of whether information police have on a suspect is too flimsy and will also consider the consequences on community relations of a raid.

Members will be security vetted and will have to promise not to reveal any intelligence they are shown. They will not have to sign the Official Secrets Act.

The first panel, expected to consist of four people, will be set up initially in London. Tomorrow representatives from police forces across England and Wales will decide whether to make the scheme national.

Muslim groups have welcomed the move, which is understood to be backed by Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner.

This week the Association of Chief Police Officers will discuss with MI5 and the Home Office whether to reveal to the panel intelligence information from the security service.

The idea came from the Metropolitan police and the Muslim Safety Forum (MSF), which works for better police-Muslim relations. It has been under discussion for two years and came to the top of the agenda after a police raid in Forest Gate, London, in June, in which a man was shot. Police were acting on a tip-off about a bomb. None was found.

Azad Ali, chairman of the MSF, said: “The major concern that came to us from Muslims was that the intelligence was flawed — the raid was on assumption and nothing else. This will allow independent scrutiny of intelligence.”

The police and the Crown Prosecution Service have sometimes been criticised for being over-cautious about tackling Muslim extremism. Last week Abu Izzadeen, a radical cleric who has so far escaped prosecution despite seemingly inciting terrorism, gained entry to a closed meeting in east London and heckled John Reid, the home secretary.

It has now emerged that Izzadeen apparently urged Muslims to wage holy war in Britain in an internet video downloaded by several thousand users from websites that closed down two months ago. The sites were linked to the Saved Sect, of which Izzadeen was leader and which has now been banned and disbanded.

In the video he told his audience: “In the UK no fighting takes place yet, but don’t be fooled, the time will come to you brothers . . . fighting is so close at hand.”

He adds: “You prepare yourself now and when the hard time comes you are ready to defend yourself; you are ready to die for the sake of Allah.”

David Corker, a partner in the London law firm Corker Binning, which has dealt with terrorism cases, said of the video: “There is enough material there for him to be considered for prosecution.”

Izzadeen, 34, did not respond to requests for comment this weekend.

posted about izzadeen last week

 

[DRB]

DRB, you can argue the 'neccesity' of your torture and heavy-handedness all you like, the fact is the rest of the civilised world still thinks you're being an ignorant, despicable cvnt. There is a reason for that.

Yeah and the reason is if the crackpots are focused on the US then they won't come a knockin'. So its in their best interests to keep this a story. And for course by the rest of the civilized (that's rich) world you mean the governments of the world that are standing around with righteous indignation all the while doing exactly the samething if not worse because no one has caught them at it yet.

The "civilized" world cares oh so much about the brown people and their treatment.

Edit: Here is the person that should decide world policy....

 

[Transcend]

If you drop your keys into a stream of flowing lava, just forget about them, 'cuz they're gone.

~Stuart Smalley

 

[Silver]

Edti:
Like I said we should just lie about it. When we are done put a bullet in them and then dump them where we found them, stick a gun in their hands and report it that way. They could just find some cops to help them set that into motion.

In that case, what was wrong with Saddam?

 

[Changleen]

Yeah and the reason is if the crackpots are focused on the US then they won't come a knockin'.

Errrr, Let's see, post 9/11 we have London, Milan and Bali for starters...
Good start for your theory...

So its in their best interests to keep this a story.

Your premis is wrong, so your reasoning for this too is flawed. We both know the real reason that Terr'ism is a constant headline in the US is to serve the Administration's agendas.

And for course by the rest of the civilized (that's rich) world you mean the governments of the world that are standing around with righteous indignation all the while doing exactly the samething if not worse because no one has caught them at it yet.

No, I mean the people. The actual populus of the world, who watch or read the headlines and think "Wow, that George Bush really is a evil dickhead." Also, WTF do you mean by "exactly the samething if not worse because no one has caught them at it yet"? Huh? So maybe France has secretly invaded Poland on false pretence, and killed 100,000+ people, but we just haven't noticed yet? Or maybe NZ has a network of secret jails where we send people to get tortured? That was a pretty dumb post from you.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Oh I know that about as well as you do. Again they just randomly haul unarmed innocent folk because that's easy.

What about the "terrorists" in Gitmo that have been completely cleared? How many "terrorists" have we decided really did nothing wrong, after holding them for years?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Yeah and the reason is if the crackpots are focused on the US then they won't come a knockin'. So its in their best interests to keep this a story. And for course by the rest of the civilized (that's rich) world you mean the governments of the world that are standing around with righteous indignation all the while doing exactly the samething if not worse because no one has caught them at it yet.

The "civilized" world cares oh so much about the brown people and their treatment.

This boils down to, "Well, everyone else is doing it." Is that really a good reason? If all your friends jumped off a bridge....

 

[MMike]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/18/arar-report.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5358762.stm

 

[DRB]

This boils down to, "Well, everyone else is doing it." Is that really a good reason? If all your friends jumped off a bridge....

It didn't say it was a reason. I said its why the "civilized" world is so indignant about it.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

It didn't say it was a reason. I said its why the "civilized" world is so indignant about it.

You think they are indignant because they see a little of themselves in our actions? I'm not sure how that is germaine to the topic then. Instead of dealing with our actions and cleaning our house, you are just lashing out at others.

 

[N8 v2.0]

All the more reason that no 'enemy combatant' should be left alive.. err.. I mean should "fight to the death"... on the battlefield.

 

[ianjenn]

What about the "terrorists" in Gitmo that have been completely cleared? How many "terrorists" have we decided really did nothing wrong, after holding them for years?

Yeah there have been some but look at THIS?
Here is ANOTHER more "reliable" news source?
Any how there will always be people who are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hopefully they find it out soon ya know. And then they can release them.........

 

[$tinkle]

You think they are indignant because they see a little of themselves in our actions? I'm not sure how that is germaine to the topic then. Instead of dealing with our actions and cleaning our house, you are just lashing out at others.

we're still talking about that clinton interview on fox???

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Yeah there have been some but look at THIS?
Here is ANOTHER more "reliable" news source?
Any how there will always be people who are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hopefully they find it out soon ya know. And then they can release them.........

From your own source...

...said Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman.

Is that a real name? Anyway...

At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence....

U.S. officials released 146 detainees from Guantanamo, but only after determining the prisoners no longer posed threats and had no remaining intelligence value.

So, wait, they released 146 prisoners and only 7 of them decided to fight us after being held indefinitely with no charges? So, what does that say about the other 139? It certainly doesn't prove that the 146 were originally terrorists. It only shows that once they released 146, 7 engaged in actions against the US.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

we're still talking about that clinton interview on fox???

No, we aren't.

Besides, Clinton hasn't been president for about 6 years now. You've got to let the hate go.

 

[ianjenn]

From your own source...

Is that a real name? Anyway...


So, wait, they released 146 prisoners and only 7 of them decided to fight us after being held indefinitely with no charges? So, what does that say about the other 139? It certainly doesn't prove that the 146 were originally terrorists. It only shows that once they released 146, 7 engaged in actions against the US.

Maybe they haven't been caught yet???:biggrin: Washingtontimes isn't really a conservative rag?

 

[Changleen]

In all seriousness ianjenn you should look into how most of these people were captured. The basic facts are that many of them were handed over to the US by the Northern Alliance. The US were offering substantial monetary rewards for captured 'taliban fighters'. Essentially the NA went out and kidnapped a bunch of illiterate farmers and handed them over to the US, claiming they were 'taliban'.

That is why in reality there is zero evidence against these people, because they are mostly just random Afghanistani males who happen to be of fighting age.

The US was delighted to get some 'results' and held them up as evil terrorists captured for the good of the world.

Your tax dollars hard at work. Don't you feel proud?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Maybe they haven't been caught yet???:biggrin: Washingtontimes isn't really a conservative rag?

If ifs and buts....

 

[$tinkle]

In all seriousness ianjenn you should look into how most of these people were captured. The basic facts are that many of them were handed over to the US by the Northern Alliance. The US were offering substantial monetary rewards for captured 'taliban fighters'. Essentially the NA went out and kidnapped a bunch of illiterate farmers and handed them over to the US, claiming they were 'taliban'.

That is why in reality there is zero evidence against these people, because they are mostly just random Afghanistani males who happen to be of fighting age.

The US was delighted to get some 'results' and held them up as evil terrorists captured for the good of the world.

Your tax dollars hard at work. Don't you feel proud?

just so you don't think i dismiss anything you say out of hand:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm

cindi lauper was right: money changes everything

 

[ianjenn]

In all seriousness ianjenn you should look into how most of these people were captured. The basic facts are that many of them were handed over to the US by the Northern Alliance. The US were offering substantial monetary rewards for captured 'taliban fighters'. Essentially the NA went out and kidnapped a bunch of illiterate farmers and handed them over to the US, claiming they were 'taliban'.

That is why in reality there is zero evidence against these people, because they are mostly just random Afghanistani males who happen to be of fighting age.

The US was delighted to get some 'results' and held them up as evil terrorists captured for the good of the world.

Your tax dollars hard at work. Don't you feel proud?

Yeah I am not for the way our government pisses away lots and lots of $$$! This does seem plausable with money rewards being offered btw. Just like the AIDS $$$ we send to Africa nobody who needs it gets it and we have no accountants overseeing where it goes.

 

[reflux]

Yeah I am not for the way our government pisses away lots and lots of $$$! This does seem plausable with money rewards being offered btw. Just like the AIDS $$$ we send to Africa nobody who needs it gets it and we have no accountants overseeing where it goes.

Aid to Africa is an entirely different subject and has its own separate issues. Spend a few minutes doing a search on RM for AIDs support to Africa, and you'll see just how disfunctional and unrealistic the program is.