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Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.

For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

And by all appearances, it's starting to work.

"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."

Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.

"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."

He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."

"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."

There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.

State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.

"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."

Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.

Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally."Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."

When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.

She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.

"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."

Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.

"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."

He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.

"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave."

Just to be clear, I believe laws have to be enforced, or they are meaningless. That's the situation we have today. In Arizona Illegals drive unregistered cars, with no insurance, no license, and no real fear of being caught. That's changing. Phoenix police will be enforcing immigration laws, the state will be taking away the business licenses of businesses employing illegals. In short, it's taking away the motivation of illegally immigrating, by taking away the jobs.

I also believe the immigration Laws need to be changed. If we really "need" more low skill laborers, then we should change the immigration laws to let more in, legally. Then they'll have more protections against being abused by employers, and they won't be stuck in some permanent underclass. I have quite a bit of empathy for people willing to risk their life so they and their children will have a better life, but let's make sure we do it the right way.
 

ATOMICFIREBALL

DISARMED IN A BATTLE OF WITS
May 26, 2004
1,354
0
Tennessee
Good for Arizona. Go home illegalls & come back through the proper channels if you want to be a US citizen!

There are still several million illegalls.
US government must have done it on purpose for some reason.You know,just let them cruise across our border!
 

ctrailfreak

Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
547
0
Independence,Mo
I doubt they will all go home, but rather migrate to another State, as the law's change from State to State. We have the same immigration problems here in Kansas, and Missouri.

I'm all for people making better for them selves, and their family. But the way it's being done is wrong! Driving down the labor wages here, so that an American worker can't even do the same job he did 5 years ago because the amount of money it pays.

I used to do roofing here in Kc, and made good money doing so. Now all the crews are Mexican, making $6.50 TO $10.00 an hour. Same goes for just about all the other manual labor jobs here.

I decided to get out of doing manual labor, and get into Electronics years ago, and was a much better decision.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Good for Arizona. Go home illegalls & come back through the proper channels if you want to be a US citizen!

There are still several million illegalls.
US government must have done it on purpose for some reason.You know,just let them cruise across our border!
Primarily the current status quo has benefited business that hire a illegal aliens. They get a cheap workforce. A work force they feel free to abuse because of their legal status.

I'm all for people making better for them selves, and their family. But the way it's being done is wrong! Driving down the labor wages here, so that an American worker can't even do the same job he did 5 years ago because the amount of money it pays.
That is the result of having a workforce unprotected by law. Employers offer a lower wage, knowing it will be accepted, can offer fewer benefits, and drive down the overall cost of labor. If the immigration laws change, and we legally allow more low skill immigrants in, they'll have legal protections and the effect on the labor market won't be as great.
 

skatetokil

Turbo Monkey
Jan 2, 2005
2,384
0
DC/Bluemont VA
Interesting thing to note about a secure border: any system that keeps illegals out also keeps you in. I for one don't want to live in a prison.
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
Interesting thing to note about a secure border: any system that keeps illegals out also keeps you in. I for one don't want to live in a prison.
:think:

Yea, good thing we have the Patriot Act and have to be humiliated before we get on a plane, my phone calls can be intercepted without a court order, I can be detained and held as an "enemy combatant", etc.

My freedomz rule!
 

skatetokil

Turbo Monkey
Jan 2, 2005
2,384
0
DC/Bluemont VA
:think:

Yea, good thing we have the Patriot Act and have to be humiliated before we get on a plane, my phone calls can be intercepted without a court order, I can be detained and held as an "enemy combatant", etc.

My freedomz rule!
Decided to limit my complaints in this thread to immigration, but ya, that too.
 

RaindogT

Monkey
Dec 22, 2005
186
0
Kansas City
Enforce the he!! out of all employers and their 'legality checks'. Those illegals found will be sent to work for a union of any kind. The employer will be fined massively for hiring an illegal. The union will be fined for NOT hiring the illegal.

Why you ask??? Unions tend to produce the whiny-est, most pu$$ified, laziest people I know.... The illegals will pick up this 'work ethic', and no one will want to hire them..... Problem solved in 5 years or less.....

(I'm just stirring the sh!t up, don't go crazy regarding my union comments-- all a joke- if we can't laugh about the state of our workforce, the capitol murder rate would sky-rocket.:cheers:)
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Decided to limit my complaints in this thread to immigration, but ya, that too.
I'm old enough to remember the last time we decided to "fix" illegal immigration by giving millions of illegals amnesty. That worked so well:disgust1:

The current system is broke.

It's bad for the Illegal aliens. When working they are frequently abused, accept lower wages, and can't report unsafe on illegal work practices for fear of reprisal, i.e. being reported to INS. They usually have no health insurance, unemployment insurance, or any other benefits. They also risk life and limb crossing the desert to get into Arizona.

It's bad for legal citizen/residents too. It costs money to rescue these people, it raises health care costs, since they use the ER as their primary health care provider. The uninsured driver rate in the illegal alien community is almost 100%., contributing to insurance costs, and health care costs. Frequently they work under the table so their income isn't taxed or reported, resulting in higher tax rates for legal worker and stressing every social service in the state. The human smuggling fuels all sorts of associated crime.

The system is broken, and has been for as long as I've been alive. The issue has been around long before the erosion of civil rights by our current government. I'd like to see it fixed. Fixed. If we need more unskilled workers, let's change the immigration quotas to allow them in legally, so they have the protections every other legal resident does, and they don't form some abused underclass.

The only to control the massive illegal border crossing is to eliminate the reason for border crossing. If employers won't hire illegal aliens, they won't try to cross the border, and we can start paying attention to the border crossers that may mean us harm.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
:think:

Yea, good thing we have the Patriot Act and have to be humiliated before we get on a plane, my phone calls can be intercepted without a court order, I can be detained and held as an "enemy combatant", etc.

My freedomz rule!

Yeah. I'm not happy about the erosion of civil rights the evil shrub has pushed for either.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
1
The Ranch
But I like going to the grocery store and feeling like I just stepped into little Mexico.:twitch::disgust1:

The illegal immigrants have destroyed any respect I have for Mexicans. Sure they might be great people, only seeing the ones that could care less about our laws makes me think they are all that way. I hate when people speak Spanish to me or around me.

Cue a response in Spanish in 5...4...3...

I love the people that fight for the illegal immigrants, do they not see the word illegal in front of immigrant? You can't get much more cut and dry. you are either legal or illegal. Last time I checked illegal is against the law and has some kind of punishment:think:
 

Dartman

Old Bastard Mike
Feb 26, 2003
3,916
0
Richmond, VA
I suppose that's what this issue is really all about...

Having a low compensated slave labor force to do all the work that we don't want to do.

If they were legal and properly compensated we couldn't afford them.

I'm not saying that this is right. It seems simple to me, they're illegal so they shouldn't be here. But there is so much political difficulty surrounding the subject there must be a lot of money at stake.

Human rights be dammed when there's money to be made.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
I suppose that's what this issue is really all about...

Having a low compensated slave labor force to do all the work that we don't want to do.

If they were legal and properly compensated we couldn't afford them.

I'm not saying that this is right. It seems simple to me, they're illegal so they shouldn't be here. But there is so much political difficulty surrounding the subject there must be a lot of money at stake.

Human rights be dammed when there's money to be made.


That's exactly what it's about. Some business want cheap manual labor and are willing to break the law to do it, now they'll be shut down instead of paying a petty fine. But society is paying the cost indirectly. If lettuce costs ten cents a head more, I'm willing to pay it, so I can actually get seen at an emergency room, and don't have a drop house on my street, people dying crossing the desert or being abused by the smugglers
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
I'm just looking forward to when the water runs out down here and everyone bails. My first party will be in Dan Quayle's Paradise Valley home, and yes, Mike Tyson will be there serving drinks.
 

RaindogT

Monkey
Dec 22, 2005
186
0
Kansas City
I suppose that's what this issue is really all about...

Having a low compensated slave labor force to do all the work that we don't want to do.
I disagree-- there is more to cheap labor than you might think....

A good majority of illegal's kids are in title 1 schools--free breakfast and free lunch program. I'd be curious to see how many of these kids are carrying cell phones....

some of the title 1 schools also provide day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. I'm not trying to suggest that they are all illegal... but the 'service' is available...
free education, free food, free day care...

or, how about an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

then you figure in:
Section 8 housing and subsidized rent, food stamps, no deductible, no co-pay health care, bilingual teachers and books, SSI and medicare if they become aged, disabled, blind etc.....

Consider the waste involved in printing EVERYTHING 2 times (one english, one spanish...) every employer should have info about FMLA and EEO documentation, most have both languages.... Gas stations, grocery stores, etc...
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
1
The Ranch
or, how about an illegal alien who says he has a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.
Fixed it for you.

Many say they have a bunch of dependents when they really do not have any.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
The group most against the new law was business. For years they have been hiring illegals, knowing enforcement was lax, and accepting the once in a blue moon $1500 fine as a cost of doing business. Businesses employing illegal aliens have been making out like bandits, while passing on the true costs to taxpayers.

In the Hispanic community about a third to a half of the legal residents/citizens are strongly opposed to any deal involving amnesty for illegal aliens. After why should they be played for chumps when someone who breaks the law gets a good deal.


FYI. Illegal border crossing is a misdemeanor. Illegal reentry after being deported is a felony. Providing false documentation to prove yourself eligible for work is a form of fraud, a felony.
 

skatetokil

Turbo Monkey
Jan 2, 2005
2,384
0
DC/Bluemont VA
On the topic of getting rid of the causes of illegal immigration, it is totally absurd that we subsidize and protect agriculture in this country making it impossible for Latin American farmers to compete with our produce. They're forced by threat of starvation to leave their farms and come to California to be migrant workers and then Americans have the gall to spit in their faces and tell them they're not welcome. I'm sure they'd much rather be working their own land back home if they could make a living doing it.
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
Unless your a Native American your family came to this country as legal immigrants. Back in the day you needed to have a job already signed up before they would even let you into this country. Build a long electric fence
 

CBJ

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2002
10,958
1,279
Copenhagen, Denmark
Immigration in the US has gone completely wrong at both ends of the spectrum and its hurting all types of immigration.

I am building a company, investing thousands of dollars, hiring people, have an MBA, pay taxes and I actually help minimize the trade deficit. My green card application was rejected as my job was not of professional character enough to qualify as an manager.
 
Just my $.02 - the system's broken beyond belief. The government really needs to make it less arduous. In the meantime, the "immigrants" that are here "illegally" are breaking the law and they know it. If they get caught, rounded up and deported, they took the risk and got nailed. Quite whining and deal with the consequences. And lastly, if they think Mexico is so great, then hey, by all means, go back and quit sucking from the tit of the American tax payer.

Flame on....
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,644
661
Front Range, dude...
Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

(Do illegals pay taxes?? Isnt that part of the whole thing? Working here, but not paying to live here? Did I miss something?)
 

jonKranked

Press Button, Receive Stupid
Nov 10, 2005
56,300
5,085
media blackout
just to poke up the fire some....

America is still fundamentally a class system. These illegal immigrants are the new lower class, the peasants, the serfs. The menial labor. The American dream is middle class, and nobody wants to be the serfs. Someone has to wipe our asses.
 

black noise

Turbo Monkey
Dec 31, 2004
1,033
0
Santa Cruz
But I like going to the grocery store and feeling like I just stepped into little Mexico.:twitch::disgust1:

The illegal immigrants have destroyed any respect I have for Mexicans. Sure they might be great people, only seeing the ones that could care less about our laws makes me think they are all that way. I hate when people speak Spanish to me or around me.

Cue a response in Spanish in 5...4...3...

I love the people that fight for the illegal immigrants, do they not see the word illegal in front of immigrant? You can't get much more cut and dry. you are either legal or illegal. Last time I checked illegal is against the law and has some kind of punishment:think:
I hate accusing people of being racist, but this is pretty much so. You have no respect for Mexicans because some of them are illegal immigrants? Come on dude. Why don't you just say you have no respect for black people because some are criminals? Calling them criminals is bullsh!t, it just serves to marginalize them and lump them with murderers and rapists. They broke one law. The vast majority of them are friendly, harmless, and very hard working.

I'm not pro-illegal immigration, but I'm disgusted by the lack of respect they get because they committed a misdemeanor by crossing a line. Do you realize what Mexicans go through to get here? It's nothing compared to the Salvadorans and Hondurans. They worked harder and risked more than most of us ever will in their quest to get $4 an hour picking strawberries.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
My main point is that business created the problem by hiring illegal aliens. For years they have claimed it's too difficult to check legal residency, and lobbied every elected official they can to prevent any meaningful penalties for hiring unlawfully. Now Arizona has put together several laws, and changed tactics. And it's going to completely change the landscape.

The first law requires proof of residency to receive public benefits, like reduced tuition at universities. The second is the employer sanctions law, which finally hits companies where they hurt if they continually hire unlawful workers.

Most cities in Arizona have turned a blind eye to illegal immigration, in part out of compassion for the people who are often fleeing abysmal conditions. Partly out of the desire to make the federal government do it's job and actually enforce the law. Even if you had someone you who admitted to being an illegal alien, ICE( A.K.A. INS) really had no interest in picking them up, and they usually walked away with a citation and nothing more.

That changed recently when a Phoenix police officer making a routine traffic stop was killed. He had stopped a car, containing illegal alien gang members, the driver had no license and gave him a fake name, which turned out to have a warrant. The driver then killed the officer, car-jacked another illegal alien and was killed in a standoff with the local SWAT team. A month later another officer was shot by an illegal immigrant, but survived. ICE now has someone on 24 hour call to actually act when an illegal alien is found.

Does that mean immigrants are responsible for crime? Not generally. But there is a large criminal element surrounding illegal immigration, like the coyotes (smugglers) which victimize people trying to cross the border, and anyone else who gets in their way.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
ICalling them criminals is bullsh!t, it just serves to marginalize them and lump them with murderers and rapists. They broke one law. The vast majority of them are friendly, harmless, and very hard working.

I'm not pro-illegal immigration, but I'm disgusted by the lack of respect they get because they committed a misdemeanor by crossing a line..

I'm not going to address the the racist claims, because frankly some of the anger directed against illegal aliens is racist, and I don't support it. The people are frequently caught between a corrupt and incompetent government at home or a marginal living in the shadows of society in the US. The real blame here is on US employers for continuing to encourage illegal immigration, benefit from it, and passing the cost on to the taxpayers. You can also blame our fine federal government for not pressuring their home governments to clean up their act.

As far as "illegal" in "illegal alien" goes providing false documents to work is a felony. Paying someone to smuggle you across border makes you a coconspirator to smuggling, a felony. Most have reentered after being deported, also a felony. That makes most illegal aliens guilty of two or three felonies and a misdemeanor. Generally having a felony on your criminal record makes you ineligible for legal immigration.

Is all of this fair? No. A de facto underclass has been setup by business, to be exploited and preyed upon, and we've allowed it to go on for far too long. I'm a proponent of increasing legal immigration to allow more people in to fill these jobs legally, with people who have the full protection of the law.

On the other hand I can't stand the idea of letting someone who broke the law benefit from it with some amnesty program. It's not fair to the people who complied with the current immigration law, and may still be waiting in a queue for a green card.
 

Austin Bike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 26, 2003
1,559
0
Duh, Austin
The entire immigration issue is BS. It is 100% economic. If you want to stop it, send a few CEOs to jail for hiring illegals. THAT will stop the problem. Today there is no *real* penalty, so companies will do what makes business sense, as long as there is plausible deniability (hey, he had a SS#....)

Now, with that being said, if we get rid of illegals, are you willing to:

Pay more for landscaping
Pay more for restaurant meals
Pay more for produce and meat
Pay more for houses

If the answer is that you don't want to pay more, then you can't bitch about the illegals. Driving them out drives up costs in a LOT of sectors and could depress the economy.

Be careful of what you wish for, every action, one way or the other, has economic consequences.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Now, with that being said, if we get rid of illegals, are you willing to:

Pay more for landscaping
Pay more for restaurant meals
Pay more for produce and meat
Pay more for houses

If the answer is that you don't want to pay more, then you can't bitch about the illegals. Driving them out drives up costs in a LOT of sectors and could depress the economy.

Be careful of what you wish for, every action, one way or the other, has economic consequences.
Yes, I'm willing to pay more to make sure the people handling my food have health care and aren't passing me a disease. I'm willing to pay more to make sure the people aren't being abused by their employers, and have to really follow the laws of the land. Yes I'm willing to pay more so ICE can focus more attention on terrorism and less on immigration. I'm willing to pay more to eliminate the shadow society that has developed.

The free market will adjust. Maybe instead of a 4200sf McMansion you'll be able to afford the 3500sf version.
 

jonKranked

Press Button, Receive Stupid
Nov 10, 2005
56,300
5,085
media blackout
ok. we have two problems... and i see a simple solution to both.

We need a renewable energy source... and too many illegals.

Instead of burning coal... well, I think you see where I'm going this. The only problem would be the smell.
 

skatetokil

Turbo Monkey
Jan 2, 2005
2,384
0
DC/Bluemont VA
ok. we have two problems... and i see a simple solution to both.

We need a renewable energy source... and too many illegals.

Instead of burning coal... well, I think you see where I'm going this. The only problem would be the smell.
Wow. Just wow.

"Look at these damn Jews taking all our jobs. The economy is going to hell in a handbasket. What we need is some kind of final solution!"

Have any of you immigration haters actually spoken to an illegal immigrant? Looked them in the eyes when they waited on you? Met their families?

They are people with inalienable rights. The fact that the law says otherwise means the law is founded on wrong principles.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,272
856
My own world inside my head
Wow, I like and dislike this thread. So I guess I will share my thoughts.

A while back, there was the "Great immigrant marchs" down in LA area. What a back fire, I mean really, the whole idea was to prove to America you cant do without us, when in fact we did just fine. Second, tehre ARE Legal ways to enter the US for work witout paying taxes. YES I have spoke to illeagal immigrants and seen tehr families, I have also turned them away for work when they wanted to apply. Do I think our system works the way it is, not completly and yes it need a Major overhaul. Do I get upset when an illeagal Imigrant gets away with a crime, and instead of getting punished they just get Deported, HELL YES.


Now I have a few dieas that May, or may not work. First off, let eliminate Payroll taxes all together, And instead raise Sales tax a bit, that way ANYONE who buys product has to pay ther fair share of taxes, Illeagal Immigrants, Drug dealers Everyone. In my eyes at least, that would give the state/federl gov Alot more money, while still being able to reduce the total tax per person. Will it really work, I dont know, Kind of a theory and reality thing there. Another I dea I have is instead of adding enw Immigration laws, start "PROPERLY" enforcing the ones we already have to begin withor instead of writing new laws against those who employ, why not go after those who are breaking the law by being here in the first place. Work Visa's, get one come work and support your family, save money, go through the process, become a citizen. Then pay your taxes like the rest of the citizens do. Oops, I started ranting a bit, sorry about that. Anyways the point is, while the system may not be perfect, the law is still the law, and needs to be Obeyed/enforced. Or any law we have means nothing.