[Ciaran]

Wow. Just wow.

"Look at these damn Jews taking all our jobs. The economy is going to hell in a handbasket. What we need is some kind of final solution!"

Have any of you immigration haters actually spoken to an illegal immigrant? Looked them in the eyes when they waited on you? Met their families?

They are people with inalienable rights. The fact that the law says otherwise means the law is founded on wrong principles.

Unless your a Native American your family came to this country as legal immigrants. Back in the day you needed to have a job already signed up before they would even let you into this country. Build a long electric fence

Oh yeah, EVERYONE had a job already waiting for them... the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, etc, etc... What some people seem to forget is that illigal immigration, getting here anyway you could has been a hallmark of the new world for at least a hundred years. IMO the rules changed when those coming in were brown people. Flame away, that's how I see it.

 

[LordOpie]

did you guys really take Jon seriously? He had to have been joking.


Mike, I like your ideas of consumption tax.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I wrote an essay in 9th grade with a very similar suggestion, only replacing mexicans with senior citizens. It was an essay on the state aptitude test for english..to get into high school. I dotted all my "i" s with swastikas too.
...somehow I failed.

 

[LordOpie]

I dotted all my "i" s with swastikas too.

That really pisses me off. Almost as much as little hearts.

 

[Ciaran]

And why is this not yet in the PAWN forum? It's only going to get uglier.

 

[BurlyShirley]

That really pisses me off. Almost as much as little hearts.

I was pretty screwed up back then. I wore camouflage all the time and brought MREs to school for lunch.

 

[sanjuro]

Well, I will be glad to pay extra for Arizona fruit that is picked by Americans.

 

[LordOpie]

Well, I will be glad to pay extra for Arizona fruit that is picked by Americans.

Cuz it tastes like freedom?

 

[PacificPointer]

Uncle Sam's new hat

 

[skatetokil]

Time for a skatetokil thought experiment.

What if your citizenship, like many other valuable commodities, were tradeable. Each year, the government would decide how many new citizenships to create and sell in the marketplace, and you as a citizen could put a price on yours, stick up a craigslist ad, and sell it to some would be immigrant. Obviously, the market would have to work both ways so that you could also purchase a citizenship somewhere else and not be a stateless orphan, but assume for the moment that such a scheme could be arranged by our benevolent and forward looking leaders.

So, what would your American citizenship be worth to you, and how much would you pay to become a citizen of Canada or Switzerland or whatever country looks most appealing at the moment?

 

[LordOpie]

I pay for my citizenship every paycheck.

yeah, I know, now someone will chime in with, "illegals don't! Whaaa!" Get over it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I hate how illegal mexicans always wear t-shirts of sports teams that they dont even like or know anything about. How lame is that?

 

[Reactor]

Wow. Just wow.

"Look at these damn Jews taking all our jobs. The economy is going to hell in a handbasket. What we need is some kind of final solution!"

Have any of you immigration haters actually spoken to an illegal immigrant? Looked them in the eyes when they waited on you? Met their families?

They are people with inalienable rights. The fact that the law says otherwise means the law is founded on wrong principles.

I have nothing against brown people coming to this country. Some of my ancestors are Native Americans (Choctaw tribe). In fact I'd like to see the system changed so more people can come in legally, and replace the whole illegal alien underclass.

The status quo is bad for everyone. Illegal aliens are abused, accept wages no legal worker would accept, and live in constant fear, drive down wages for legal workers and drain some social service resources because of their status. What's the point of carrying car insurance when your next traffic stop could see you deported? That drives up insurance rates for everyone. And there is a lot of crime surrounding illegal immigration, mostly people preying on them, like the coyotes.

If we eliminate the impetus for illegal immigration, and allow some legal immigration we can eliminate the whole problem. Employers can have their unskilled workers, who will be protected by law, won't have to live in fear, and will be in a position to bargain for better wages. We also won't have a couple of hundred crossers dying in the desert every year. We can also eliminate an entire underground economy consisting of millions of people.

The federal work laws have been on the books for decades. I have to provide proof of my legal ability to work, as does anyone else applying for a job. The difference is that Arizona will actually be enforcing a similar local law with a much stiffer penalty. Business will lose their licenses for hiring people ineligible to work here. That's something business are actually taking seriously.

As for talking to illegal aliens, I do it almost every day. Most of them are decent people just trying to improve their lives. Believe it or not they have considerably more "rights" in America than other North/Central/South Americans have in Mexico.

None of that changes the fact that they knowingly and willing violated the laws of a sovereign country. You may not agree with the current laws but they are the laws. Feel free to petition congress to change the laws, but until they are changed people crossing the border, by avoiding legal border crossings are illegal aliens. People providing false documentation to work are committing fraud, and are criminals. You have no idea the problems illegal immigration causes unless you live with it every day. I won't support any plan that lets an illegal alien immigrate before anyone else already waiting on a green card.

As far a "people have inalienable rights", the Constitution of the United States defines what the United States considers "inalienable rights", and committing fraud isn't one of them. You're also bucking the entire world (including Mexico and Venezuela), which defines a country by its borders and ability to control them. I wish people could live without having to lump things into groups but they can't.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the immigration movements. For example Mexican Immigration law is much stricter than US Law:

Is it legal for a foreigner to work in Mexico?
Yes, provided that you have the right permit. You are not permitted to travel to Mexico, enter as a tourist and seek gainful employment there. You must have the correct migratory permits to do so before you go.

Permits are gained from the Mexican Government and are issued to people who are sponsored by companies in Mexico (or foreign companies with Mexican operations / subsidiaries), or by people with specific skills required in Mexico. You can enter Mexico to work for a foreign company provided that you do not receive any remuneration directly from a Mexican company or subsidiary.

Permits can also be arranged for investors (i.e. setting up your own company), but you'll need to invest 40,000 times the daily minimum salary* in order to qualify. Casual investors (for example, buying stocks on the Mexican Stock Exchange) can also get resident permits, although as with direct investment, you will need to invest the same amount as above.
*Multiples liable to change without notice

These mechanisms are in place to ensure that you will not be: a) taking jobs that Mexican nationals could otherwise have and/or; b) ensure that if you don't have an immediate income, you have the means to support yourself without relying on the Mexican State in any way.

Cool, either the a Mexican company sponsors me, or I have to invest 109 years of salary. If we reciprocated an Mexican Immigrant would be required to invest $1,840,000 or have a job offer and proof he wasn't steeling a job from an American. How about suggesting that as a starting point for immigration reform? Why don't we just apply our current law or the reciprocal of the foreign county's immigration policy. Of course that would be ridiculous. Even as arcane and draconian as our immigration policies are, most of the world is worse.

Just ask people from Central American countries fleeing what they encountered in Mexico. If the same people immigrating to the US from Mexico, were US citizens immigrating the other way Mexico wouldn't provide any means for them to legally immigrate, at all. Oh, and their children wouldn't get to attend school unless they payed:

Schools for your Children
If you have children of school-age, then you will need to find a school in Mexico suitable for them. If you have full residential status, your children may be entitled to attend Government funded schools or colleges, and you need to decide whether you will take this option or pay to have your children educated privately. The second option is very expensive, and if a company or sponsor is not paying for this, it is something you will need to have budgeted for.

No free lunch programs either, nor food stamps, AFDC.

Oh, and free Emergency room care, not a chance. In Mexico, unlike America, you have no right to be treated regardless of your ability to pay.:

Insurance, Health Concerns and Medical Issues
Depending on your residential status, you and your family may be entitled to Mexican Social Services for health matters, which are free at point of delivery. (i.e., non resident, you pay or no treatment)

If you live in Europe are used to some European State's free-at-point-of-delivery systems, be warned that facilities are nowhere near as developed. Western Europeans used to high levels of social and welfare care funded by the State will need to adjust their expectations of public health care and other social services; Mexico is still a developing nation in this respect.

You should buy private medical insurance for you and any dependents to be covered for illnesses and medical conditions (if the company you are working with does not already provide it).

Mexico does have some very fine clinics and hospitals, but like the USA, they are not free at point of delivery; and like the USA you WILL be asked for insurance details and, even if you are insured, expect to be asked for a hefty deposit using a credit card or cash.

Want to know about inalienable rights? Mexican government compassion? ask a chiappas indian.

As far as the economy, I expect Arizona to take a hit. Hotels will cost a little more, produce will cost a little more as people working are paid a living wage, instead of treated as serfs. I'm tired of seeing people exploited for profit.

 

[Reactor]

I hate how illegal mexicans always wear t-shirts of sports teams that they dont even like or know anything about. How lame is that?

Really lame if it's the Cardinals.

 

[Fonzie18]

Big electric fence, more guns, Mile-wide moat with alligators, nuke 'em, burn 'em

Here we go... Where is my popcorn?

 

[LordOpie]

The status quo is bad for everyone. Illegal aliens are abused, accept wages no legal worker would accept, and live in constant fear...

If it's so bad, go home.

Seriously, the crap they put up with is better than where they live? That's jacked up.

Mexico should just petition the US to join the Union.


And get this Nicaragua is to Mexico as Mexico is to US. Nicragua is really focked up.

 

[Reactor]

If it's so bad, go home.

Seriously, the crap they put up with is better than where they live? That's jacked up.

Mexico should just petition the US to join the Union.


And get this Nicaragua is to Mexico as Mexico is to US. Nicragua is really focked up.

Mexico, especially southern Mexico is bad. Racism in Mexico is ten if not a hundred times worse than the US. Chiappas Indians have a way of being "disappeared". Private farming is depressed by large corporate farms.

 

[Sandwich]

interesting thread.

Honest question- Can anyone tell me why INS doesn't go after illegals on the street? Sometimes it's so very obvious that something is up...like the numerous day-workers that line the streets near where my friend lives. Wouldn't a raid or two disrupt that and encourage "employers" not to hire them? Or have an undercover agent make a list of contractors that come by to hire people?

I would think you'd get more than a few undocumented workers on the average raid. Is it too much manpower? Too little time?

 

[MikeD]

(Do illegals pay taxes?? Isnt that part of the whole thing? Working here, but not paying to live here? Did I miss something?)

Actually, many illegals report their income and pay taxes. They kind of have to, because employers have to seem above-board to the IRS...so they take the money out, and send it to the IRS using whatever taxpayer number or appropriated SSN the worker gives them. ED: Which is why the IRS kind of likes illegal immigration--it's more revenue.

Or, in some cases, the employers tell the illegal that they're withholding tax, and keep the money for themselves.

Sanwich--as to your post, it'd just consume all of their time. It's like trying to deal with the flood with a pail in the basement, rather than fixing the broken levvy...

 

[MikeD]

Wow. Just wow.

"Look at these damn Jews taking all our jobs. The economy is going to hell in a handbasket. What we need is some kind of final solution!"

Have any of you immigration haters actually spoken to an illegal immigrant? Looked them in the eyes when they waited on you? Met their families?

They are people with inalienable rights. The fact that the law says otherwise means the law is founded on wrong principles.

Wow, that's hysterical. Both in a laugh-at-you fashion and a you-are-hysterical fashion.

Comparing control of immigration (which every country has, and the majority of others actually efficiently enforce) to the Final Solution? Seriously, cut it out.

I've looked a few illegals in the eye myself, by the way.

ED: By they way, Reactor, right-on posting back there.

ED II: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150269

I still think that could be the start of a workable solution...except that I no longer agree with allowing anyone in the US to arrange for amnesty of any sort. Registering as a guest worker should be done only in the country of origin at a US embassy or consulate, thus requiring those illegally present to return to their country of their own volition.

 

[Transcend]

I pay for my citizenship every paycheck.

yeah, I know, now someone will chime in with, "illegals don't! Whaaa!" Get over it.

When I lived in Boulder I knew quite a few illegals. They paid income tax and sales tax just like everyone else (fake or "borrowed" SS#), only they didn't get a single benefit from it.

 

[MikeD]

only they didn't get a single benefit from it.

That's not entirely true. Their kids went to school, they were taken care of in the ER if they showed up and couldn't pay.

Many do pay, and all do get some benefit merely from being present in the US.

 

[Westy]

When I lived in Boulder I knew quite a few illegals. They paid income tax and sales tax just like everyone else (fake or "borrowed" SS#), only they didn't get a single benefit from it.

They didn't use the roads, parks or any other public infrastructure? They somehow didn't enjoy the safety and stability of this country?

 

[MikeD]

They didn't use the roads, parks or any other public infrastructure? They somehow didn't enjoy the safety and stability of this country?

Don't forget that freedom costs a buck-o-five...

 

[skatetokil]

Wow, that's hysterical. Both in a laugh-at-you fashion and a you-are-hysterical fashion.

Comparing control of immigration (which every country has, and the majority of others actually efficiently enforce) to the Final Solution? Seriously, cut it out.

I've looked a few illegals in the eye myself, by the way.

ED: By they way, Reactor, right-on posting back there.

ED II: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150269

I still think that could be the start of a workable solution...except that I no longer agree with allowing anyone in the US to arrange for amnesty of any sort. Registering as a guest worker should be done only in the country of origin at a US embassy or consulate, thus requiring those illegally present to return to their country of their own volition.

racism is racism.

 

[MikeD]

And this has nothing to do with racism, so I don't see what you're getting at. If the borders were violated by hordes of Swedes, I'd feel the same way.

 

[Westy]

Don't forget that freedom costs a buck-o-five...

Can I use paypal?

 

[Ciaran]

Don't forget that freedom costs a buck-o-five...

I should neg rep you for using a played out joke. C'mon! You're better than that!!!

... buck o five...

And this has nothing to do with racism, so I don't see what you're getting at. If the borders were violated by hordes of Swedes, I'd feel the same way.

Personally, my opinion is that the majority of americans who are currently up in arms about immigration would not be if it were a horde of swedes. Just my opinion, YMMV of course.

 

[LordOpie]

Especially if they were Victoria Secret models.


mmmm a million swedish models invading.

 

[Reactor]

interesting thread.

Honest question- Can anyone tell me why INS doesn't go after illegals on the street? Sometimes it's so very obvious that something is up...like the numerous day-workers that line the streets near where my friend lives. Wouldn't a raid or two disrupt that and encourage "employers" not to hire them? Or have an undercover agent make a list of contractors that come by to hire people?

I would think you'd get more than a few undocumented workers on the average raid. Is it too much manpower? Too little time?

http://kjzz.org/news/specialreports/2007/chandlerroundup


You can read and listen to what happened at the last "illegal alien roundup" there.

 

[Reactor]

racism is racism.

Yes it is, both ways. The status quo, confining people to an illegal underclass because they have brown skin, is a lot more racist than wanting immigration reformed, so people with brown skin can legally immigrate, and not suffer from the stigma of 10 million illegal aliens. You seem fixated on keeping people in the country illegally and working in a permenant underclass. Why?

What's your solution? Amnesty didn't work, all it did was bring in 10 million new illegal aliens to replace the ones given legal resident status. There is no reason to believe it would work now. What would you do, other than amnesty, to fix the problem?

 

[ire]

Personally, my opinion is that the majority of americans who are currently up in arms about immigration would not be if it were a horde of swedes. Just my opinion, YMMV of course.

I don't agree, look at what the Italians and Irish put up with...no different. This same fear of immigrants has been going on for over 100 years, the new immigrant groups are always discriminated against regardless of race.

 

[skatetokil]

Yes it is, both ways. The status quo, confining people to an illegal underclass because they have brown skin, is a lot more racist than wanting immigration reformed, so people with brown skin can legally immigrate, and not suffer from the stigma of 10 million illegal aliens. You seem fixated on keeping people in the country illegally and working in a permenant underclass. Why?

What's your solution? Amnesty didn't work, all it did was bring in 10 million new illegal aliens to replace the ones given legal resident status. There is no reason to believe it would work now. What would you do, other than amnesty, to fix the problem?

Define "didn't work." The economic history of the United States is one of repeated amnesties for crimes that were later determined to be non-crimes. Whether it was squatting on land, mining a claim you didn't own or coming here without papers, our government has time and again made compromises between the laws on the books and the reality on the ground. Google "preemption acts" and you'll see how Congress invalidated old titles in favor or new settlers. The point I was making with the thought experiment was that your citizenship is just a special kind of property right whose value can be affected by all sorts of factors.

You own a share of this country, so the creation of new shares (immigration or birth) decreases the value of yours. You could also say that illegal immigration is stealing from you in this context, and I'm not opposed to a compensatory or symbolic fine for that magic greencard. However, you could make all the same (non racist) arguments that people make against immigration against giving birth to a child.

The process of population growth is probably not a fact that we're going to change, and I would argue that it is not even the primary determinant of the value of your citizenship within reasonable limits. There are other laws, government actions, random occurrences, and inherited realities that cause US citizenship to be one of the most valuable in the world. I think that our energies are better spent trying to enhance the value of our citizenship by engaging in serious and continual reform of our governing institutions rather than fighting a losing battle against slow but unstoppable sources of value erosion.

 

[MikeD]

So do you think the citizens of a country, through their government, have no right to regulate who enters the country, why, and for how long?

 

[Reactor]

Define "didn't work." The economic history of the United States is one of repeated amnesties for crimes that were later determined to be non-crimes. Whether it was squatting on land, mining a claim you didn't own or coming here without papers, our government has time and again made compromises between the laws on the books and the reality on the ground. Google "preemption acts" and you'll see how Congress invalidated old titles in favor or new settlers. The point I was making with the thought experiment was that your citizenship is just a special kind of property right whose value can be affected by all sorts of factors.

Didn't work = Illegal immigration continued to occur after we granted amnesty to previous illegal aliens. Because the previous illegal aliens were now part of the mainstream, and the root cause, jobs being offered to those not legally entitled to work continued. The exploited underclass just rebuilt itself.

If citizenship is a property right, like say Google stock, the stockholders have a right to control the sale of that stock, and the right to veto anything that would dilute the value of that stock. Someone can't can't just come into Google one and declare that they now own stock. Frankly, your attempt at a thought experiment was pointless, because it wasn't really an experiment.

You own a share of this country, so the creation of new shares (immigration or birth) decreases the value of yours. You could also say that illegal immigration is stealing from you in this context, and I'm not opposed to a compensatory or symbolic fine for that magic green-card. However, you could make all the same (non racist) arguments that people make against immigration against giving birth to a child.

You obviously haven't put much effort into this.

Birthing a child in the US is the legal right of a citizen. That child will grow up in this society and be integrated into it. The parents pay taxes to support schools and infrastructure used by the child as an investment. That investment is returned when the child becomes a productive legal member of society.

Legal Immigration compensates the stock holders by ensuring properly screened people, who will contribute to the value of the country are merged into the country and have to take concrete steps to integrate with society.

Illegal immigration on the other hand, sets up a society of disadvantaged people living in the shadows who aren't screened, who may be felons, or worse. It costs huge amounts of time and effort to control, and is driven by greed at all corners. Greed of businesses to exploit illegal immigrants of cheap labor, greed of illegal immigrants to get ahead of those in the green card queue, greed of the coyote's to smuggle people across the border. It drives down wages, keeps manual laborers from earning what most would consider a living wage. It causes a shadow society that frequently doesn't pay taxes, doesn't carry auto insurance, hides criminals. Usually these people don't have benefits like health insurance, and frequently they handle food. The uninsured motorist rate in AZ is sky high, although now state law requires the police to seize cars if the driver can't produce a license and insurance.

The wait in an Phoenix area ER room is frequently six plus hours, largely because in Arizona the ER doesn't have the right to turn you away, and they don't check immigration status. My father spent six hours waiting to see a doctor in severe pain, when he had insurance and was a citizen, because the ER he went to was full of illegal aliens. It turned out the severe pain was lung cancer spreading to his liver, he died of cancer six months later. A shorter ER wait wouldn't have saved him, but he didn't need to suffer for six hours. If stats hold true, at least half of the people in line before him didn't have insurance, and shouldn't have been in the ER. T

The process of population growth is probably not a fact that we're going to change, and I would argue that it is not even the primary determinant of the value of your citizenship within reasonable limits. There are other laws, government actions, random occurrences, and inherited realities that cause US citizenship to be one of the most valuable in the world. I think that our energies are better spent trying to enhance the value of our citizenship by engaging in serious and continual reform of our governing institutions rather than fighting a losing battle against slow but unstoppable sources of value erosion.

China fixed their population growth problem.irate2:

Fixing the immigration issue is "trying to enhance the value of our citizenship by engaging in serious and continual reform of our governing institutions" I'm talking about eliminating illegal immigration, and raising the quotas on legal immigration so that the immigration we have is legal, and the people immigrating can't be exploited like current illegal immigrants are. Eliminating the jobs being offered to illegal immigrants will fix the problem. Many fewer jobs offered to illegal immigrants and businesses risking their licenses by hiring them, the impetus for illegal immigration will be greatly lessened. Police resources tied up by illegal immigration can be turned to crime suppression, and counter-terrorism. We might even be able to reduce police forces.

You still haven't answered my question. What would you do, other than the status quo, or an amnesty deal? What would you do to eliminate the exploited illegal alien underclass? How would you control immigration? Or would you let anyone from anywhere come and go into the US at will? And hold jobs? Or do you not believe sovereign countries have the right to control their borders and who can work. Maybe we can become the jail for the world? Commit a crime, get sent to the US. I can see all sorts of repeats of Castro's prison dumping reoccurring, daily.

I've described what I want to do to fix the problem in detail. All you've done is call people racist for wanting to fix what is undeniably a problem. As far as I can see you want to maintain the status quo, a system that forces illegal immigrants into a illegal exploited underclass. That makes you a racist, a hypocrite, or worse a pedantic windbag.

 

[MikeD]

Well, Reactor, I think he's trying to say if you simply made unrestricted immigration at will legal, and let people become citizens based on their geographic location, we'd no longer have an "illegal" underclass at all.

 

[Transcend]

They didn't use the roads, parks or any other public infrastructure? They somehow didn't enjoy the safety and stability of this country?

According to Ron Paul, none of these are paid for with taxes.

 

[Silver]

You can talk about fixing the problem all you want, but you have to fix the INS first.

If you don't do that you're essentially arguing that all we need to transport oil across the Alaskan tundra is a million drinking straws taped together. Seriously, the INS is something out of Kafka novel. I totally understand why someone from Mexico would bypass it if possible. It's just not worth it to do legally.

 

[MikeD]

Very true...the solution lies in providing a realistic and appealing legal solution while making it very hard for illegal immigrants to get jobs of any kind. Stemming the tide of the nightly invasion would allow border security to focus more on catching the few people trickling across instead of fighting a gigantic unmanageable flood every night. Militarizing and/or walling off the border is not going to be a practical solution.

Still, I think you can develop a guest worker program without needing to completely overhaul the INS. The cornerstone would be developing an ID card with a biometric which prevents forgery and/or substitution, and allows an employer to verify the card using a simple reader that they can lease/buy/borrow from the government. Cards like this are already in use in the International Zone in Baghdad.

 

[Reactor]

Oh, skatetokill, I paid for my citizenship with six years of my life.

How have you paid for yours?