[3D.]

Federal income tax paid is *not* 15-35%. Not even close. More like -6.6% to 19%. Probably less by this point since we've had several tax cuts since the 2006 numbers I pulled. You know, effective tax rate vs actual tax brackets.

Yeah for the extremely poor or a wealthy corporation. Dunno what country you’re paying in, but I’m hovering at a 20% rate in my 25% bracket.

The gift/estate tax is nowhere near 55%.

Gift/ Inheritance tax I could probably stand to be corrected on because I’ve never dealt with it, but from what I understand you can see federal rates as high as 35% and then double that (60%+) if you gift over $5 million to a grandchild, effectively skipping a generation. Combine fed rates with a possible state fee as well and what kind of rate are you looking at?

But hey, keep throwing out random (and incorrect) numbers, I'm sure it makes you feel better.

Are they really that off? With the average american paying more in taxes than they do for food, clothing and housing combined I’m baffled as too why this doesn’t make you feel bad?

Not even close, considering those fees also go for local road upkeep and maintenance.

see DMV and fuel taxes, billions for CA.

Let me know how paying cash for your medical costs goes in your old age.

cool, I will cause that's exactly what I'll be doing.

Although if you rip up those SS checks and send them back, be sure to take pictures for us!!

It's hilarious that you believe we will have SS benefits when I'm a senior.

Do you bathe?

As a family of 4, I pay over $70 a month for using 200gals a day of municipal water, more than my fare share. Read my previous posts before commenting, k?

 

[stoney]

What "high ranking" Senator? State or Federal?

Federal.

 

[Serial Midget]

OK. Democrat or Republican?

Federal.

 

[stevew]

OK. Democrat or Republican?

it's above your pay grade.

 

[Serial Midget]

it's above your pay grade.

I have a map of the states on my wall - some blue some red, I'll narrow it down as soon as I get more information.

 

[stoney]

OK. Democrat or Republican?

Republican.

 

[MMike]

As a family of 4, I pay over $70 a month for using 200gals a day of municipal water, more than my fare (sic) share.

Is that based on your gut feeling, or do you have some math to substantiate that?

Read my previous posts before commenting, k?

Mmmmm...nah

 

[dante]

Yeah for the extremely poor or a wealthy corporation. Dunno what country you’re paying in, but I’m hovering at a 20% rate in my 25% bracket.

Either you're miscalculating something or you need to start getting more deductions. My wife and I are in the 25% bracket as well, and we paid exactly 10% last year, and that's with no kids, just a mortgage and 401k contributions.

Gift/ Inheritance tax I could probably stand to be corrected on because I’ve never dealt with it, but from what I understand you can see federal rates as high as 35% and then double that (60%+) if you gift over $5 million to a grandchild, effectively skipping a generation. Combine fed rates with a possible state fee as well and what kind of rate are you looking at?

Seriously? You're looking at gifting $5m to a grandchild? The exemption is $10m (married rate) right now, and 35% above that. Sorry, I really don't feel sorry on someone paying taxes on whatever amount *above* $10m that they received as an inheritance.

Are they really that off? With the average american paying more in taxes than they do for food, clothing and housing combined I’m baffled as too why this doesn’t make you feel bad?

Where the heck do you get that? Because if you look here you'll see that all taxes *combined* equals 14.8%, which is half the amount we spending on housing (29%), and less than transportation costs.

As a family of 4, I pay over $70 a month for using 200gals a day of municipal water, more than my fare share. Read my previous posts before commenting, k?

You use 200 gallons PER DAY, and you're complaining about $70 cost? That's 6,000 gallons per month, or $0.0117/gallon. And I'm assuming that you have municipal sewer as well, correct? If you really hate the government so much and can't stand paying that whole penny per gallon, dig your own well.

And I missed the part about a family of 4, if you're married filing jointly, take in the maximum income in the 25% tax bracket ($137k), make zero contributions to your 401(k), have zero health care costs (incl premiums), don't have any deductions other than the standard deduction (so no mortgage interest, no education interest, etc), you're looking at paying $18,600 or....... 13.6%.

If you're in the "head of household" category and you're pulling in the maximum for the 25% tax bracket ($116k) you're paying a maximum of 15.6%.

All deductions (mortgage interest, 401(k)s, health care costs, etc) lower that percentage in taxes that you pay.

Btw, here's the tax estimate calculator: http://www.dinkytown.net/java/Tax1040.html

 

[3D.]

Is that based on your gut feeling, or do you have some math to substantiate that?

Come on… would I really put something like that up on a whim with you guys ready to decimate it the minute I hit post?

Here, straight from a recent invoice:

Service dates 9/12/10-10/11/10 (Meter reading) previous 67030 ~ present 73189 Usage 6159gal Total water Charges= $68.98

That equates to 205.3gals per day.
Considering the fact that the average consumption for a family of 4 is 320-400gals a day, were doing rather well.

Either you're miscalculating something or you need to start getting more deductions. My wife and I are in the 25% bracket as well, and we paid exactly 10% last year, and that's with no kids, just a mortgage and 401k contributions.

You’re right I do need do incur more deductions, can’t buy equipment and such with out having the funds to do so.

Seriously? You're looking at gifting $5m to a grandchild? The exemption is $10m (married rate) right now, and 35% above that. Sorry, I really don't feel sorry on someone paying taxes on whatever amount *above* $10m that they received as an inheritance.

Not expecting you to feel sorry for someone gifting that kind of loot, I don’t either. Just showing you how some of the numbers were derived.

Where the heck do you get that? Because if you look here you'll see that all taxes *combined* equals 14.8%, which is half the amount we spending on housing (29%), and less than transportation costs.

I’m referring to all taxes tariffs not just income tax, don’t compartmentalize my point to avoid the bigger picture. Follow your “taxable income” dollar bills from right before you pay fed and state income tax, all the way out to when their gone and you need another pay check to survive, over 50% usually disappears to taxes and fees.

You use 200 gallons PER DAY, and you're complaining about $70 cost? That's 6,000 gallons per month, or $0.0117/gallon. And I'm assuming that you have municipal sewer as well, correct? If you really hate the government so much and can't stand paying that whole penny per gallon, dig your own well.

You have no idea what our sanitation district and public utility district receives upon issuing a building permit in Tahoe, if you did, it’d be hard to make the above statement while poised with a straight face. I have installed domestic wells, they are now illegal in truckee unless you are installing a 3 million gallon per night irrigation well for a “Tom Weiskopf Designed” golf course.

I think you might be inflaming on smaller aspects of a larger point that you still have evaded. Point is, the middle class has been taxed to death in this country for many decades and now we are allowing the military to expend more than half of our hard earned revenues (1.6trillion in 2011) on a fraudulent war. The issue is really black and white. Care to address?

I don’t hate the government, just the banks and corporations that control it.

 

[3D.]

thanks for that 1040 calculator dante

 

[dante]

I think you might be inflaming on smaller aspects of a larger point that you still have evaded. Point is, the middle class has been taxed to death in this country for many decades and now we are allowing the military to expend more than half of our hard earned revenues (1.6trillion in 2011) on a fraudulent war. The issue is really black and white. Care to address?

I don’t hate the government, just the banks and corporations that control it.

That's my whole point, it hasn't. The link I posted earlier shows that out of a median household income of $63,000, 15% goes to taxes. That's *all* taxes. If you go to that 1040 calculator, put in $63k for a family of 4 (married filing jointly), even when using the standard deductions you end up paying only 3% of your income in federal income taxes. If you have a reasonable mortgage and can deduct mortgage interest, state income taxes, and property taxes, your federal tax bill comes to 1.7%. If you contribute $3,000 to an IRA, your total Federal tax bill is 0.99%, or $623.

That $623 goes for not only military spending, but also education, aid to states, health care and salaries for government workers, border patrols, food subsidies, Medicaid, etc... So a median family's tax bill goes something like:

1% - Effective federal income taxes
7.6% - SS/Medicare
5% - Effective state income taxes
??% - Effective sales tax (since it's only on non-essential, mostly non-food items and services, the effective tax rate compared to your total income is minuscule).
0.39% - Vehicle registration fee (based on the numbers you gave of $250/year for both your cars)

Add all of that up and you're looking pretty close to the 14.9% quoted in the link that I posted earlier. So no, I don't think that the middle class is being "taxed to death" just because they pay a whopping 15% in total taxes. Or maybe I'm just naive in believing that the median income families in this country are "middle class". Maybe we should go by McCain's number of $5m/year as being "middle class" instead?

 

[3D.]

1% - Effective federal income taxes
7.6% - SS/Medicare
5% - Effective state income taxes
??% - Effective sales tax (since it's only on non-essential, mostly non-food items and services, the effective tax rate compared to your total income is minuscule).
0.39% - Vehicle registration fee (based on the numbers you gave of $250/year for both your cars)

How can you leave effective sales taxes and fees at ?? that's a joke it's the furthest thing from minuscule. Like I was saying, follow you're spent income and include all fees (property taxes, license fees, sales tax on items other than food that are absolutely essential to life, communication fees, fuel taxes, etc, etc... way too many to list) that go to the government. You're way off on that 15% total.

But if you're ok with it all, I'll rest my case. Just send me some of that Koolaid you're drinking, I really need it.

 

[dante]

How can you leave effective sales taxes and fees at ?? that's a joke it's the furthest thing from minuscule. Like I was saying, follow you're spent income and include all fees (property taxes, license fees, sales tax on items other than food that are absolutely essential to life, communication fees, fuel taxes, etc, etc... way too many to list) that go to the government. You're way off on that 15% total.

But if you're ok with it all, I'll rest my case. Just send me some of that Koolaid you're drinking, I really need it.

How a family making the median $63k spends it's money:

Apparel/Services - $1,881
Personal Care - $588
Food (away from home) - $2,688
Entertainment - $2,698
Reading - $118
Vehicle purchases - $3,244
Tobacco - $323
Housekeeping supplies - $639
Household furnishings - $1,797
Utilities/Fuels/Public Services - $3,477 (although I'm not sure exactly how much of this has a sales-tax added on, but I'll include it here anyway)

That's a total of $17,453 that you spend on items that have a sales tax. Even at Cali's 8.25% sales tax, you're spending $1,439 every year on sales taxes. That's an effective tax rate of 2.3% of your overall income. I'm not going to bother going into whatever municipal or cty taxes are tacked on.

Fuel taxes? If you drive 12,000 miles per year and get 30mpg, you use 400 gallons. At Cali ($0.46/galllon) + Federal ($0.18/gallon), you're looking at a whopping $256 in gas taxes every year. That's an effective tax rate of 0.4% of your income.

Property taxes? If you start adding in property taxes, your federal (and state) income taxes go down due to writing them off as deductions. There's just no way to justify claiming that middle-class America is getting "taxed to death". And fees are just that, fees for a service. If you want to register a car, you pay a fee. If you want to visit a public park, you pay a fee. You are getting services. If you don't want to pay a car registration fee, don't own a car. If you don't want to pay for visiting a public park, don't visit. It's as simple as that.

Lastly, I never got an answer as to how much you think you *should* be paying in taxes, and where did you get that information? As I've noted, we're paying a near record low % of our income in federal income taxes, and our tax rates are low compared to much of the rest of the industrialized world (hi MMike!!). If you think we should only pay 10% of our total income in taxes, where did you get that number? Because all I can think is that if our taxes were magically cut in half, in another 5 or 10 years there'd be people like you complaining that all of the taxes are too high, and that everyone is being taxed to death, blah blah blah blah.

There is no rational "we should be paying X" in taxes, the argument just seems to be "less than I'm paying now" which doesn't cut it for me. As for the Kool Aid, I just understand that we pay taxes for governmental services. Without taxes, we don't get those services. Do I think that the government should tax us more and cut spending so that we run a balanced budget? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Serial Midget]

Republican.

Awesome. Male or Female?

 

[Toshi]

Must spread rep/keep fighting the good fight.

 

[3D.]

How a family making the median $63k spends it's money:

Apparel/Services - $1,881
Personal Care - $588
Food (away from home) - $2,688
Entertainment - $2,698
Reading - $118
Vehicle purchases - $3,244
Tobacco - $323
Housekeeping supplies - $639
Household furnishings - $1,797
Utilities/Fuels/Public Services - $3,477 (although I'm not sure exactly how much of this has a sales-tax added on, but I'll include it here anyway)

That's a total of $17,453 that you spend on items that have a sales tax. Even at Cali's 8.25% sales tax, you're spending $1,439 every year on sales taxes. That's an effective tax rate of 2.3% of your overall income. I'm not going to bother going into whatever municipal or cty taxes are tacked on.

Fuel taxes? If you drive 12,000 miles per year and get 30mpg, you use 400 gallons. At Cali ($0.46/galllon) + Federal ($0.18/gallon), you're looking at a whopping $256 in gas taxes every year. That's an effective tax rate of 0.4% of your income.

Property taxes? If you start adding in property taxes, your federal (and state) income taxes go down due to writing them off as deductions. There's just no way to justify claiming that middle-class America is getting "taxed to death". And fees are just that, fees for a service. If you want to register a car, you pay a fee. If you want to visit a public park, you pay a fee. You are getting services. If you don't want to pay a car registration fee, don't own a car. If you don't want to pay for visiting a public park, don't visit. It's as simple as that.

Lastly, I never got an answer as to how much you think you *should* be paying in taxes, and where did you get that information? As I've noted, we're paying a near record low % of our income in federal income taxes, and our tax rates are low compared to much of the rest of the industrialized world (hi MMike!!). If you think we should only pay 10% of our total income in taxes, where did you get that number? Because all I can think is that if our taxes were magically cut in half, in another 5 or 10 years there'd be people like you complaining that all of the taxes are too high, and that everyone is being taxed to death, blah blah blah blah.

There is no rational "we should be paying X" in taxes, the argument just seems to be "less than I'm paying now" which doesn't cut it for me. As for the Kool Aid, I just understand that we pay taxes for governmental services. Without taxes, we don't get those services. Do I think that the government should tax us more and cut spending so that we run a balanced budget? ABSOLUTELY.

Toshi, spread rep huh? some of you are so diluted in here it makes this fun. I know many of you are privileged in having plushy high paying jobs that you can spend a third of your work day surfing the web and posting on ride monkey, many of which are government funded. I see what goes on in here during a regular work week but some of you are a very small percentage of the real work force of this country that if had laptops or browsers set up on the side in esurf mode during work ours, would not have a job the following day.

That graph is laughable in today’s economy… $1821 in cash contributions, $2853 in healthcare, LOL. Most families of three that I know around here (reno for sure) are getting ready to loose their house because thay can’t pay a mortgage due to not having a job for six months. If they do have healthcare that’s worth paying for it’s usually to the tune of $800 a month for a small family, that’s $9600 a year and far beyond the $2800 that fantasy land chart illustrates. It’s a koolaid chart, and a damn good one when compared to our current faltering economy where we have 35 million people or more on food stamps or some sort of government assistance.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6465E220100507

Hypothesize a joint filing separately or an individual income of $50,000. Take it to the irs rate chart and drop it from the 17.3% to a realized 14% after exemptions and add 8% state tax (22% total), numbers that many pay at that status. Now take an 8% sales tax (understated in many CA locations) that exists on nearly everything we buy except food and a few others (more if were talking about fuel purchases). Combine those figures with a $5000 annual property tax payment (10% of a $50,000 income, a very real number from frisco across to jersey) and another 4-5% in other “indirect taxes“ on items ranging from telephone/ communications taxes to liquor tax, and the total can easily be 45% of your income.

A partial list of items that many pay taxes on:


Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Deficit spending
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inflation
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

You’re still missing my point that you for some reason refuse to address, if our 1.6 trillion dollar military budget (more than half our total budget) set for this coming year was a quarter of that (which it should be at max), many if not all of these extraneous taxes could be eliminated entirely. I never stated that we should be paying zero taxes, but once again, the citizens of this country should be checking the coherency at which they are collected and spent. Raising taxes on anyone other than rich corporations is not the answer.

Dante, I have a proposal that I’ll bet you’ll somehow defend; how about imposing a new 8% tax on all business and corporations that outsource and exploit cheap labor in third world countries. An initiative like this would turn our economy around in one decade flat.

 

[valve bouncer]

Dear Mr 3D,
We here at the Internal Revenue Service have received your latest missive about inequities in the present tax system. Please be assured that we value your correspondence and take it very seriously indeed. After extensive inter-departmental consultation we have the following advice for you. Pay up.
Yours Sincerely
R. Apenfist
Senior Assessor
P.S- Bitch

 

[dante]

I honestly have no idea how to respond, because your post is so full of erroneous statements and hyperbole (not to mention anecdotes) that it would take probably days to try to correct you, and you wouldn't even believe us when we told you. There's a reason that everyone here seems deluded but you. But I will leave you with a couple thoughts:

1) That graph is the *median* family in this country. Half the people make more, half the people make less. As a result some people spend more on health care, some spend less.... It's why I used it since you were talking about middle class Americans.

2) Again, *median* cost of health care. The people with full-time jobs and employer-supplied health care pay far less. Those who are self-employed and have to cough up the entire amount pay far more.

3) I have no idea what "IRS rate chart" you're talking about, but the whole point of the link I sent you to earlier (tax estimate) is so that you can see that a family of 4 making $50k pays 3.27% of their income in federal income taxes. If you're married filing separately (or single) you're paying 11% since YOU CAN CLAIM YOURSELF AS AN EXEMPTION!! Are you really telling me that a single person making $50k that has to pay 11% in taxes is onerous? Then of course you can get any of the deductions that lower that amount.

4) You ignored the point where I showed you that for a median family, they're spending $1,700 in sales tax, even at California's 8.25%.

5) Your list of "taxes" is mostly a collection of fees for services, including utility services, or aren't taxes *or* fees like "inflation".

6) Out of your list, I count ~10 that is money that goes to the federal government, including ~5 that are the small ones on your phone bill. You keep talking about cutting federal services (military) so that you can lower your tax burden, but you're omitting the fact that it's your state that is taking more of your money than the fed.

7) The military budget is not $1.6t. For 2011 the pentagon's budget is $738b, and Veteran's benefits are another $122b. For 2011 our federal deficit was $1.3t. So even if you cut our military down to zero, and even if we cut out the entire veteran's affairs budget as well, we STILL wouldn't have cut enough to balance the budget and would have to raise taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html

8) You keep referring to the many "extraneous taxes", but you're missing the point that they are almost all a result of your state, not federal spending:

I pay no:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Deficit spending
Dog License Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Hunting License Tax
Inflation
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

I could go on, but I seriously doubt that you have any idea of what's actually going on, what the government spends money on, or how you're not being "taxed to death". If you're upset with the massive state and local taxes you're paying, either complain to them or move (I hear West Virginia has really low state/local taxes). But I can guarantee that you're not paying massive amounts of your salary to support the military machine.......

 

[rockofullr]

Bla bla bla Truckee bla bla golf course.

Its all coming together now. 3D is an old hippy living in Truckee feeling put on by the man while he rides the lifts.

You never use the freeway? How do you think they pay to keep the pass open during the winter so you can live in a mountain town? Here's a hint, TAXES!

 

[Pesqueeb]

 

[3D.]

Its all coming together now. 3D is an old hippy living in Truckee feeling put on by the man while he rides the lifts.

bwahahhahhaaa!.... thanks for providing me with a bit of comic relief for my lunch break. To give you a hint on old I am, I still get carded at safeway when picking up a six pack... every time. Nice try though

You never use the freeway? How do you think they pay to keep the pass open during the winter so you can live in a mountain town? Here's a hint, TAXES!

F donner pass, don't have to go anywhere near it, I'd eat canned soup and ramans all winter while walking to the hill if meant keeping it closed and inaccessible to all the Escalade driving yahoos of the bay area.

Like I previously stated; I use the freeway systems very rarely and pay dearly for it, see DMV fees/ fuel taxes.

But how about elaborating on my real point of spending our revenues so wisely on a 1.6 trillion dollar military budget (more than half our total budget) while states go into debt and deficit spending keeping things like donner pass open so people like rockofullr can come up and play in the mountains.

 

[3D.]

Or wait rockofullr, can you also not elaborate on the botched 2011 budget because you are one of the others in here that voted for this administration and are still in such great denial of it being the worst presidency ever that you have to remain silent regardless have how wrongly your money is spent??

 

[dante]

But how about elaborating on my real point of spending our revenues so wisely on a 1.6 trillion dollar military budget (more than half our total budget) while states go into debt and deficit spending keeping things like donner pass open so people like rockofullr can come up and play in the mountains.

Care to back this up with a fact or link? Because this shows that you're so far off it's not even funny:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html?src=tp

 

[Pesqueeb]

But how about elaborating on my real point of spending our revenues so wisely on a 1.6 trillion dollar military budget (more than half our total budget) while states go into debt and deficit spending keeping things like donner pass open so people like rockofullr can come up and play in the mountains.

*sigh*
I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but here it goes. The latest info I could find was from 2008, so while I'm sure US military spending has increased some, I doubt its increased to 1.6 Trillion, which would be more than the entire world spent in 2008.

For 2011 the entire military budget is 708 billion. Here is a nice big picture so you don't get any more confused. And technically speaking, there is no budget for 2011 yet since we are now on the second contiuning resolution of 2010's budget.

In other/related news, here is a graph for Alcoa stock preformanceover the last three months. Coincidence?

 

[3D.]

Lets get the facts straight about previous years’ budgets first. When the 2010 DOD budget was proposed before October 28, 2009 it’s base figure was $533.8 billion. In the end with over budget defense related expenditures and supplemental bills brought forth an additional $654 billion or 122% of the base figure was added bringing the total to around 1.35 trillion dollars for the fiscal year of 2010.

With a base budget proposed at $738 billion and exponentially escalating middle east war (same one that the 2010 budget dealt with), coupled with the supplements and increases (which are historically and factually part of every years expenses), it will be brought to somewhere around 1.638 trillion dollars ($738 trillion + 122%). It’s not wild speculation, it’s just simple math and the way it always works. But please, keep your nose buried in those NY times articles and fantasy land pie graphs to find personal salvation if you must.

 

[ridiculous]

Where would we be without OCO?

 

[ridiculous]

How a family making the median $63k spends it's money:

Man I am f**kin up.

Just breaking things down monthly. That means I could have a $1410 mortgage and a $729/ mo car note.

All of the expenditures in that graph equates to $4136/mo. I make more than that median and I cant afford $4236/mo. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Pesqueeb]

Lets get the facts straight

about previous years’ budgets first. When the 2010 DOD budget was proposed before October 28, 2009 it’s base figure was $533.8 billion. In the end with over budget defense related expenditures and supplemental bills brought forth an additional $654 billion or 122% of the base figure was added bringing the total to around 1.35 trillion dollars for the fiscal year of 2010.

As Dante said, please site one source, just one even semi-credible source for your figures. That means no Prisonplanet or worldnetdaily, because otherwise all this talk is just paranoid hyperbole your arbitrarily pulling out of your ass.

Where would we be without OCO?

Is that any thing like LOIC?

 

[dante]

As Dante said, please site one source, just one even semi-credible source for your figures. That means no Prisonplanet or worldnetdaily, because otherwise all this talk is just paranoid hyperbole your arbitrarily pulling out of your ass.

Some for you.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1941

He included things like the FBI, the State Dept, the Treasury Dept, NASA and...

Net interest attributable to past debt-financed defense outlays, $207b

Even with that it was only 87% more than the stated Pentagon budget, which would (by those calculations) still only put it at $1.38T, *not* $1.6b as 3d keeps stating. That (inflated number) would also be ~1/3 of the $3.69b, not "more than everything else combined". Even his fanciful $1.6t number isn't more than the rest of the budget combined.

 

[ridiculous]

haha pretty much. OCO brought my company several projects to "upgrade" the military's toys. OCO 2 is jammed in the pipeline. Though, I must admit regardless of their shaky progress, they were handled way better than the GWOT and FCS lovechilds of the Bush Era.

 

[dante]

Man I am f**kin up.

Just breaking things down monthly. That means I could have a $1410 mortgage and a $729/ mo car note.

All of the expenditures in that graph equates to $4136/mo. I make more than that median and I cant afford $4236/mo. What am I doing wrong?

Not really, unless you didn't pay anything for gas, heat, electricity, etc. So shelter is $10,000/year, or $833/month. Then utilities are $3,500, or $291/month (including cable, internet, electricity, gas, etc).

Then vehicle purchases is $3,244, or $270/month, but remember that's the average. Some pay more, some pay less, or some people pay $400/month car loans and others drive paid-off vehicles.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Some for you.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1941

He included things like the FBI, the State Dept, the Treasury Dept, NASA and...



Even with that it was only 87% more than the stated Pentagon budget, which would (by those calculations) still only put it at $1.38T, *not* $1.6b as 3d keeps stating. That (inflated number) would also be ~1/3 of the $3.69b, not "more than everything else combined". Even his fanciful $1.6t number isn't more than the rest of the budget combined.

Well sure, if your definition is broad enough you can fit anything into "defense spending". Those freeways that 3D avoids so rabidly, I've seen humvees, 2.5 ton trucks and even tanks on flatbeds driving down the freeway, so now DOT is "military spending." Soldiers were kids once who went to schools, Dept. of education now "military spending". Extrapolate it out far enough and now the entire 3.83 trillion 2011 projected budget is now ENTIRELY MILITARY SPENDING WASTING YOUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR JUST TOO BLIND AND IGNORANT TO SEE IT!!!!!!!!

 

[dante]

Well sure, if your definition is broad enough you can fit anything into "defense spending". Those freeways that 3D avoids so rabidly, I've seen humvees, 2.5 ton trucks and even tanks on flatbeds driving down the freeway, so now DOT is "military spending." Soldiers were kids once who went to schools, Dept. of education now "military spending". Extrapolate it out far enough and now the entire 3.83 trillion 2011 projected budget is now ENTIRLLY MILITARY SPENDING WASTING YOUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR JUST TOO BLIND AND IGNORANT TO SEE IT!!!!!!!!

SS is just keeping seniors alive, and Medicare is keeping them (relatively) healthy so they can be used as a first line of defense when the Ruskie's invade!!!!!

 

[Pesqueeb]

ss is just keeping seniors alive, and medicare is keeping them (relatively) healthy so they can be used as a first line of defense when the ruskie's invade!!!!!

See!!!!!! Its all military spending!!!!!!! Oceania has always been at war with eastasia!!!!!!!


*Edit WTF is up with not being able to capitalize entire posts?

 

[ridiculous]

Not really, unless you didn't pay anything for gas, heat, electricity, etc. So shelter is $10,000/year, or $833/month. Then utilities are $3,500, or $291/month (including cable, internet, electricity, gas, etc).

Then vehicle purchases is $3,244, or $270/month, but remember that's the average. Some pay more, some pay less, or some people pay $400/month car loans and others drive paid-off vehicles.

yeah i jumped the gun on that a bit but still. The monthly expenditures > my monthly income after taxes.

 

[X3pilot]

3D, Dante and I certainly don't agree on a lot philosophically, but you can not argue with his finance and money knowledge. He has made this point about taxes and actual expenditures before and it all is backed up by pure fact.

 

[Pesqueeb]

3D, Dante and I certainly don't agree on a lot philosophically, but you can not argue with his finance and money knowledge. He has made this point about taxes and actual expenditures before and it all is backed up by pure fact.

Or is that what THEY want you to think?

 

[3D.]

Originally Posted by Pesqueeb
As Dante said, please site one source, just one even semi-credible source for your figures. That means no Prisonplanet or worldnetdaily, because otherwise all this talk is just paranoid hyperbole your arbitrarily pulling out of your ass.

Here’s a somewhat credible source without having to post an article for every budget extension of 2010. It is wiki, so for those of you who don’t see it as “credible” enough just follow their reference links, they range in sources from NY times to gov sites, perfect for the likes of some of you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

wiki- For the 2010 fiscal year, the president's base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $533.8 billion. Adding spending on "overseas contingency operations" brings the sum to $663.8 billion.[1][2]
When the budget was signed into law on October 28, 2009, the final size of the Department of Defense's budget was $680 billion, $16 billion more than President Obama had requested.[3] An additional $37 billion supplemental bill to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was expected to pass in the spring of 2010, but has been delayed by the House of Representatives after passing the Senate.[4][5] Defense-related expenditures outside of the Department of Defense constitute between $319 billion and $654 billion in additional spending, bringing the total for defense spending to between $1.01 and $1.35 trillion in fiscal year 2010.

That’s trillion guys, not billion.

Of course I should note that the estimates sited by them and their sources have determined the budget to cap at $1.45 trillion for 2011 with items like FBI counter-terrorism thrown in (marginal amount at $2.7 billion), but many believe it will be higher. I’ll go with the higher on that one given the military's track record for blowing it.

and don't try to discredit it because it's wiki, the references they used are very real and factual. take the time

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1941

He included things like the FBI, the State Dept, the Treasury Dept, NASA and...

Not even close there bud, not for 2010, better take a closer look at that one.
Convenient how you use an article from 2007, try basing your figures from the 2010 budget or don’t bother putting it up.

Well sure, if your definition is broad enough you can fit anything into "defense spending". Those freeways that 3D avoids so rabidly, I've seen humvees, 2.5 ton trucks and even tanks on flatbeds driving down the freeway, so now DOT is "military spending."

wiki- Neither does it include defense spending that is not military in nature, such as the Department of Homeland Security, counter-terrorism spending by the FBI, and intelligence-gathering spending by NASA.

Trying to make an unfounded claim that their lumping items like interstates in their budget shows some of you to be incredibly inflammatory, manipulative shills, or just plane stupid.

pesqueeb, why don't you concentrate on booking airline tickets or ripping stubs at the gate, and stop posting up irrelevant pie graphs from 2008, it's an annoying disturbance to the conversation here.

3D, Dante and I certainly don't agree on a lot philosophically, but you can not argue with his finance and money knowledge. He has made this point about taxes and actual expenditures before and it all is backed up by pure fact.

Yeah his prowess reminds me a little of the collapsed Lehman Brothers and Bears Stearnes institutions, they too were financial geniuses.

I have an idea, why don't we carry this thread and argument till the end of this fiscal year. Then I can display in their ink, how the total budget went from $1.35 trillion in 2010 to $1.5 trillion in 2011, without spending a dime on anything other than war and anti-terror based line items.

 

[dante]

Holy crap.... Ok, did you actually LOOK at the links that you just posted (ie, the ones inside of the wiki article you linked to)???

bringing the total for defense spending to between $1.01 and $1.35 trillion in fiscal year 2010.

Hmmmmm. Let's look a little bit into that. It has the [6] tag, meaning that if you click that you are brought up to....

6. ^ a b Robert Higgs. "The Trillion-Dollar Defense Budget Is Already Here". Retrieved March 15, 2007.

You know, the article I was just debunking since it is claiming that everything from the Treasury to NASA to the State Dept, etc.

Even with that, it still comes no where near the $1.6t that you claimed originally. I'm done with this conversation unless you can come up with something with a bit more credibility than wikipedia or some unsubstantiated ramblings from the "Independent Institute (2007)".

 

[stoney]

3D, Dante and I certainly don't agree on a lot philosophically, but you can not argue with his finance and money knowledge. He has made this point about taxes and actual expenditures before and it all is backed up by pure fact.

Concur. I keep meticulous records of my expenditures in quicken. In 2010, my total fee/taxes/other govt mandated expenses (and yes I break out taxes in my phone and utilities bills, CRV, and travel taxes) were roughly 38% of my total expenses. That expense number is roughly our joint income.minus pre-tax contributions to 401k accounts.

I also bought two cars this year, which added into my exceptional tax load this year. Historically I have averaged roughly 32-35% annually. Note that I have not received any tax return for 2010 or factored in parking costs in the city. If I added in the increase in my parking rates due to a need city parking fee, and increases to meter rates, I might have added .25%.

I would assume the year for me ends up around 37% actual and effective tax rate.
.would also note that I live in a state with.exceptionally high state income taxes, high auto registration costs, and 'fees' that are high and prevalent. I also live in a city with an exceptionally high sales tax, where 'fees' and fines makeup north of 50% of the city budget.

I would assume that most middle class families, with the same (cost of living adjusted) income would have.similar, if not a lower rate.