[ALEXIS_DH]

i've already done that. i used to volunteer at a hospital for poor people (FYI 33% of male homeless are veterans - National Coalition for Homeless Veterans data)

those can be nice stories, and they are very respectable persons, whose good will may be out of question and are convinced they are patriots and are sincere about it, but thats not the point.

the point is whether those who sent them to war were patriots.
they were just pawns in a huge chess game. they might be sincerely convinced in what they were made to believe. its very unlikely the real reasons they fought were the ones they think.

the point is whether the real reasons they fought were patriotic or not, not if they are patriotic or not. their view is subjective, and there is also a need for some stupidity, as borges suggested, not to see farther than the inmediate hero fable.

stupidity and ignorance are the main requirements to be sincerely wrong.

u can get good stories in the army, but there are 2 kinds of writters, those who write sentences beyond their words, and those who tell a story. the success of a writer is not in the story, but how it is told. just read Julio Cortazar, JLB or Sartre.

Alexis

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well that entire post was quite a bore. This really wasnt meant to open up a debate on why wars are fought, but rather on the views of those fighting them. Not to say that its completely irrelevant, but it did nothing to discount what i said in my last post.

:yawn.
Dont feel the need to break simple sh** like this down for me
chief, JLB (whom i will admit to having never read, but am taking from his entirely out of context quote) obviously does not posess the virtue of dedication. What you call "stupidity" others call valor. I can already see the viewpoint (however illogical) from which you are standing, so i dont feel it will do any good to try and convince you of the opposite, however, Id ask that instead of simply bashing the idea of warfighters who are actually patriots, you take a minute or two to speak with one...perhaps at a local nursing home or VFW. You may find some not-so-stupid individuals with some very intersesting things to say. You probably wont do it, because once most people are tuned into a certain way of thinking, theres almost never any turning back. Even if you did, youd probably write the guy off as senile or something anyway. Bah!

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH

those can be nice stories, and they are very respectable persons, whose good will may be out of question and are convinced they are patriots and are sincere about it, but thats not the point.


Alexis

No, that is the point. In fact, that was my only point. That many of those serving in the military are "bad americans". Go and re-read my first post on this particular topic and ask yourself why you're arguing.

Also, once again, you needn't try and explain to me the dynamics of creative writing or the theory behind it. Not that anyone couldnt use improvement, but in what position are you, and what about me do you know to be giving such advice?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No, that is the point. In fact, that was my only point. That many of those serving in the military are "bad americans". Go and re-read my first post on this particular topic and ask yourself why you're arguing.

Also, once again, you needn't try and explain to me the dynamics of creative writing or the theory behind it. Not that anyone couldnt use improvement, but in what position are you, and what about me do you know to be giving such advice?

so far, that u are a soldier who wants to be a writer, but hasnt read JLB and thinks the army will give u the chance to be a writer.

yeah, the point is if u cant tell when u are doing something not good because u dont realize that what u r doing is not good; then you'd think u r doing right.
thats when the stupidity requirement comes in handy. u cannot notice without being somewhat stupid.

and because of this virtue, they are bad americans. one's ability to be "bad american" is proportional to one's inability to realize the underlying ideas of those statements.

the sky is not only the roof one lives under.


plus i love to argue

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
maybe because most soldiers are hot blooded guys with minds trained to obbey rather than think.

hmmm, i thought that's what universities were for.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by manimal
hmmm, i thought that's what universities were for.

hmmmm?????????????????????? that was totally non-sense.

again a prime example of u-can-only-agree-if-cant-understand-what-it-means.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
so far, that u are a soldier who wants to be a writer, but hasnt read JLB and thinks the army will give u the chance to be a writer.


plus i love to argue

No,

Im not a soldier who wants to be a writer. Im a Marine who "is" a writer. In fact, and i hate gloating, i was recently recognized as the Marine Corps Print Journalist of the Year for 2002. I was also the top active duty writer in the entire department of defense for that year. I also do tons of extra work for websites around the net which provides me with quite an income boost and am currently on my way to finishing this journalism degree.

Also, when one signs their name to a contract, ensuring the govenrment to obey whatever lawful orders are given, i wouldnt consider it stupidity to stand by my signature. i often do not agree with what im doing, but its not my job to formulate policy, only to enforce it. Stupidity is nowhere in the equation. You yourself earlier said that joining for money was perfectly logical right?

Your last comment, to manimal, can go either direction. Im in the midst of seeing both sides.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No,

Im not a soldier who wants to be a writer. Im a Marine who "is" a writer. In fact, and i hate gloating, i was recently recognized as the Marine Corps Print Journalist of the Year for 2002. I was also the top active duty writer in the entire department of defense for that year. I also do tons of extra work for websites around the net which provides me with quite an income boost and am currently on my way to finishing this journalism degree.

Also, when one signs their name to a contract, ensuring the govenrment to obey whatever lawful orders are given, i wouldnt consider it stupidity to stand by my signature. i often do not agree with what im doing, but its not my job to formulate policy, only to enforce it. Stupidity is nowhere in the equation. You yourself earlier said that joining for money was perfectly logical right?

Your last comment, to manimal, can go either direction. Im in the midst of seeing both sides.

yup, and that again is not the point. standing by your signature is not stupid.
but trusting your life blindly to some person (no matter if its a higher ranked guy, for whom lives are just part of the cost of winning objective) is definately stupid.

think of all the soldiers used for testing nuclear bombs, who were
never told of the tests. if somebody decide u r gonna be the next, then u r fini.

thats the point of all am talking about. the willingness of being a soldier to fight wars declared on the reasons i wrote before.

thats where the stupidity am talking about is. it would be bravery if u r a volunteer fighting an independance or blablabla or if u were autonomous.

but being subject to orders no questions asked. thats the stupidity borges lacked.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
yup, and that again is not the point. standing by your signature is not stupid.
but trusting your life blindly to some person (no matter if its a higher ranked guy, for whom lives are just part of the cost of winning objective) is definately stupid.

with each post, it becomes more and more obvious how little you actually understand about how the military works...

You wouldnt know the first thing about trusting your life to someone in a combat situation. One of the first things you would learn, if you studied the military is how the best leaders earned the respect and faith of their men. There is no blind trust...only blind obedience...this obedience does not come through stupidity, it comes through discipline. It comes through practice and training. Each person marching onto a battlefield knows that his life is in jeapordy. This does not make him stupid. It makes him no stupider than the cable Tv repairman who dangerously climbs telephone poles for a living, or the alaskan crab fisherman who take thier boats into absurdly dangerous waters. Its simply the job that needs to be done.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly

Each person marching onto a battlefield knows that his life is in jeapordy. This does not make him stupid.

its different, if a repairman doenst want to climb the pole if he doesnt want to. he doenst have to go to martial court for that. he still have the choice of the degree of jeopardy he wants so take. for a soldier, it doenst depend on him, but on his position in the formation or arrival time, which is decided not by him but by somebody else.

what's the difference between blind obidience or blind trust? either way your life is the colateral of the mortage.
the cable company doesnt send u a repairman team knowing 60% are doing to die.
if a construction worker dies, its because his mistake or a machine accident, not because he was sent somewhere to be shot at.

a construction worker goes to work knowing he's a risk of dying, the same as an electricist or an accountant, to some degree or other. BUT they dont blindly have confidence in a leader because they are told so. there is no way the ability to have blind confidence should be a quality people should look for.

the elecricist doenst bite 10kv cables because his superior told so, a soldier will go into landmines no questions asked. there is no trainning required here, there is no mental exercise, no choice, no self. just do it because u r told so. all the thinking about your destiny was already done by others.

just thinking, hell yeah i signed the contract this is my job and i'll walk over landmines because am told so. u dont show a lot of intelligence by doing so.

regular people's lives ultimately depend on the risks they are willing to take each moment and everytime. a soldier doesnt.
his life ultimately doesnt depend on his training, it depends on where a higher ranked guy wants him to be, or on the ability of the opponent to shoot him down. on the risks others want to put his life thru.

if he's told to kill, he either kills, get killed or goes to jail. there are no romantic ideals there, as u said, its a job that has to be done. just those stupid enough to have blind confidence in somebody else, no matter how smart or whatever this person may be, will be giving up their life ultimate choices to somebody else, because they got this obidience through "trainning", which just teaches them to act without asking, thinking or reasoning.

just like the definition of stupid "...marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting".

if they want to send to u a place were u are 99% likely to die, they will, and giving this power of decision over your life to somebody else is really stupid.
then they will give u honors and a lot of stuff, but well, u r already dead or missing a leg.

 

[LordOpie]

I'm so glad ALEXIS doesn't run our country or we'd be living in Nazi America now

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm so glad ALEXIS doesn't run our country or we'd be living in Nazi America now

hell no, am almost a hippie by US standards. :eviltongue:

it only applies to soldiers.
isnt any army a fascism already?

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
hmmmm?????????????????????? that was totally non-sense.

again a prime example of u-can-only-agree-if-cant-understand-what-it-means.

ok, let me break it down for you, since you're so educated in the ways of real life.

you believe that serving in the military involves stupidity because you are following "blindly" the direction of others -to save your life-

i believe that you are blindly following the theories and teachings of those whom you have never met and you know nothing of their true character except that which is written in a book.

-so-

blindly following someone of whom i've seen in action, witnessed their character and trust my life with is stupid? unfortunately alexis, some of us have to do the not so nice and/or fun things in life such as being there in times of danger blah,blah, blah... and some of us have chosen to be one of those people. do you think that we're all just a bunch of sheep following the shepard to the slaughter? are we all just a bunch of brainwashed dimwits?
remember, blindly trusting someone, especially with your life, is not a sign of stupidity but of submission and an understanding of what really matters. we learn early on in the military that we don't know everything and it's better to trust those who've been there before than to "blindly" go on our own. the latter is, i believe, where you are alexis; afraid to give in and realize that you learn more when you follow first.

so is a soldier only good for 2 things? i suppose you'll never know because "u-can-only-agree-if-cant-understand-what-it-means".

now go back to blindly following your professors ideals and let us idiots allow you to do so

 

[BurlyShirley]

First you say,

i used to volunteer at a hospital for poor people (FYI 33% of male homeless are veterans - National Coalition for Homeless Veterans data)
those can be nice stories, and they are very respectable persons, whose good will may be out of question and are convinced they are patriots and are sincere about it, but thats not the point.
the point is whether those who sent them to war were patriots.

Then you say,

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
BUT they dont blindly have confidence in a leader because they are told so. there is no way the ability to have blind confidence should be a quality people should look for.

just thinking, hell yeah i signed the contract this is my job and i'll walk over landmines because am told so. u dont show a lot of intelligence by doing so.

WTF? Dude. Do you even realize how little sense you're making right now?

 

[Archslater]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
hell no, am almost a hippie by US standards. :eviltongue:

it only applies to soldiers.
isnt any army a fascism already?

I think what LordOpie meant was that if you were running the country, we wouldn't have a military, and Hitler would have taken over.

I may have mis-interpreted though.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Archslater
I think what LordOpie meant was that if you were running the country, we wouldn't have a military, and Hitler would have taken over.

I may have mis-interpreted though.

thanks Arch, that's very close and I could only shake my head that Alexis didn't even come close to understanding.

More specifically tho, Alexis would have done such a poor job of running the military as the commander that we'd all be royally screwed.

But Alexis has his/her collegiate head so far up it's own rectum that I figured I'd be wasting my time explaining.

I just love academics who have no real world experience attempting to explain how things are or should be. I can only hope that Alexis is NOT a graduate assistant who's been forced to teach a few classes... GAs make the worst teachers

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by LordOpie


I just love academics who have no real world experience attempting to explain how things are or should be.

Almost as bad as twenty something military types doing the same thing isn't it?
Anyway I'm not sure if being dumb qualifies you for military service, although I'm sure as far as the generals are concerned it probably helps. No, I think being poor means you're more likely to end up in the front lines. Rich men start the wars and the poor fight them. Way of the world.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Almost as bad as twenty something military types doing the same thing isn't it?
Anyway I'm not sure if being dumb qualifies you for military service, although I'm sure as far as the generals are concerned it probably helps. No, I think being poor means you're more likely to end up in the front lines. Rich men start the wars and the poor fight them. Way of the world.

The difference, ballsack, is that im not trying to speak for the other side

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
First you say,



Then you say,



WTF? Dude. Do you even realize how little sense you're making right now?

their lack if inteligence or decision doenst have anything to do with their honorability, of their good will.
again, u can be sincerely wrong, u just need to be ignorant and a bit stupid.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by manimal
. do you think that we're all just a bunch of sheep following the shepard to the slaughter? are we all just a bunch of brainwashed dimwits?
remember, blindly trusting someone, especially with your life, is not a sign of stupidity but of submission and an understanding of what really matters. we learn early on in the military that we don't know everything and it's better to trust those who've been there before than to "blindly" go on our own. the latter is, i believe, where you are alexis; afraid to give in and realize that you learn more when you follow first.

now go back to blindly following your professors ideals and let us idiots allow you to do so

hmm, so if a soldier is not a sheep going to the slaughter house, what it is?
it doens matter if you trust the decisions about your life to the smartest guy on earth, its still being silly giving away those rights.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by LordOpie
thanks Arch, that's very close and I could only shake my head that Alexis didn't even come close to understanding.

More specifically tho, Alexis would have done such a poor job of running the military as the commander that we'd all be royally screwed.

But Alexis has his/her collegiate head so far up it's own rectum that I figured I'd be wasting my time explaining.

I just love academics who have no real world experience attempting to explain how things are or should be. I can only hope that Alexis is NOT a graduate assistant who's been forced to teach a few classes... GAs make the worst teachers

hmm, i dunno, of course i'd have more genuine remorse about sending them to death, but i'd would have sent them over, just like age of empires!!!

no, seriously, is heroic to be the defensive guys, i said that before. but being in the other side is rather discusting.

either way, no wars would start if aggressors were not starting wars. instead of asking something so unlikely and remote as me being a general, ask if wwii was avoidable.

both are as unknown, unlikely and remote.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
either way, no wars would start if aggressors were not starting wars.

wow! You're insight is astounding.

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
instead of asking something so unlikely and remote as me being a general, ask if wwii was avoidable.

both are as unknown, unlikely and remote.

WWII being avoidable is unknown... huh?

*gary coleman voice*
Whatcha smoking Willis?

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
hmm, so if a soldier is not a sheep going to the slaughter house, what it is?
it doens matter if you trust the decisions about your life to the smartest guy on earth, its still being silly giving away those rights.

the difference, ye untrusting one, is that sheep don't know they're being led to slaugher. a soldier/marine/sailor knows exactly what could happen and readily accepts that fact. and you really don't "give up" your rights, there are many ways to respectfully decline an order if one deems necessary but it rarely happens.

i'm not sure where you got the idea that we're all just a bunch of brainwashed drones ready to kill anything at the sound of the order but you're wrong. i can almost guarantee that a veteran of at least 4 years can figure out a real life problem more expediantly and accuratly than a recent college graduate with no "worldly" experience other than that of the campus life.

you have a LOT to learn my friend.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
their lack if inteligence or decision doenst have anything to do with their honorability, of their good will.
again, u can be sincerely wrong, u just need to be ignorant and a bit stupid.

Ok, so now you're calling the veterans of WW2 who you volunteered for stupid but yet you say that they're sincere, honorable and respectable. The whole point was that thes Sincere, Honorable and Respectable "Americans" are the same ones that you would call "Bad Americans" Congratulations on losing the word game. You've now come completely full circle to realize the point i was trying to make.

Its still sad though, that you consider some really great Americans as stupid simply because they decided to fight in a war. John Glenn (former Marine) is a real idiot. George Washington? Bufoon Dude, you seriously need to find a clue.

 

[Eddie420]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Almost as bad as twenty something military types doing the same thing isn't it?

so true..

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Eddie420
so true..

because eddie is so experienced himself

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by LordOpie
wow! You're insight is astounding.


WWII being avoidable is unknown... huh?

*gary coleman voice*
Whatcha smoking Willis?

that was called sarcasm.

obviously is not that way. u gotta be dumb to believe that.

i was just keeping the same logic used by you to point how
insane it was to start talking about what-could-had-happen-if...

its just non-sense to start taking if u were the president/general/whatever then...., the same as if.....

so, dont use ...well, if u were the general, then we'd all be nazis because...... as an argument. its just totally non sense.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Ok, so now you're calling the veterans of WW2 who you volunteered for stupid but yet you say that they're sincere, honorable and respectable. The whole point was that thes Sincere, Honorable and Respectable "Americans" are the same ones that you would call "Bad Americans" Congratulations on losing the word game. You've now come completely full circle to realize the point i was trying to make.

Its still sad though, that you consider some really great Americans as stupid simply because they decided to fight in a war. John Glenn (former Marine) is a real idiot. George Washington? Bufoon Dude, you seriously need to find a clue.

u get the point on the word game.

seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerve.

i dont consider great americans stupid for fighting a war. i consider anyone who will go to the front line of non-defensive wars a stupid.
or mercenary. the entire concept of war, soldiers and all that stuff is still barbaric.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
that was called sarcasm.

obviously is not that way. u gotta be dumb to believe that.

i was just keeping the same logic used by you to point how
insane it was to start talking about what-could-had-happen-if...

its just non-sense to start taking if u were the president/general/whatever then...., the same as if.....

so, dont use ...well, if u were the general, then we'd all be nazis because...... as an argument. its just totally non sense.

you win by sheer over-powering determination of posting bullsh!t... i just can't keep up and those here who read my posts know i can shovel it well.