[binary visions]

What do you monkeys do who lack an immersion chiller?

Last brew, I froze two gallon jugs of water and after the boil, I simply cut the plastic off and dropped them in. That actually worked too well - two gallon jugs was too much and the temperature dropped precipitously.

Is there any reason I should not be doing this? A cold water bath will work but this is less messy and if I'm not boiling the full 5 gallons anyway, I need to bring the volume up.

Thoughts?

 

[pnj]

I have an IC but prefer to not use it.

I 'no chill' my beer. I let the two brew kettles cool down to about 180 or less, then pour into a sanitize fermentation bucket. I put an 'S' shaped air lock on, a small piece of clean cotton in the top and pour about 2 teaspoons of StarSan into the rag.

The wort cools over night and while it does, it contracts, sucking in air through the airlock. The StarSan helps prevent any bad stuff from getting in.

The next day I pitch my yeast.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/

However, I have used an ice bath and my sink for MANY batches.
Also, you can make an IC yourself...

 

[laura]

TN and I use an ice bath in a cooler. It only takes about 15 minutes to cool down. We stick the cooler in the bathtub and there is really no mess.

 

[DamienC]

Ice bath in the sink, drink a couple more bottles as it cools.

Maybe next time try just one frozen gallon?

 

[Westy]

Drop some dry ice in the wort?

 

[pnj]

If you're doing extract/partial boils, you can top off the fermentor with ice cold water too.

 

[binary visions]

Maybe next time try just one frozen gallon?

That's the plan, I was just trying to figure out if there was a reason this wasn't a good way to do it.

Drop some dry ice in the wort?

I actually considered that, but it costs money . Gallons of water are substantially cheaper and I need to buy them anyway to top the boil off.

 

[TN]

I like the idea of no chill brewing like PNJ talks about but now that there is snow on the ground I think our next batch will be chilled inthe snow bank in the yard just cuz.

 

[jonKranked]

I 'no chill' my beer. I let the two brew kettles cool down to about 180 or less, then pour into a sanitize fermentation bucket. I put an 'S' shaped air lock on, a small piece of clean cotton in the top and pour about 2 teaspoons of StarSan into the rag.

The wort cools over night and while it does, it contracts, sucking in air through the airlock. The StarSan helps prevent any bad stuff from getting in.

I was just thinking about this...

Cotton isn't very good at keep stuff out. Particulate that's visible to the naked eye yes, but not microbes or bacteria. The star san will help to kill this stuff, but its effectiveness will decrease a substantial amount over time.

A sure fire way to keep any microbes and bacteria out would be to just integrate a piece of Tyvek into your air lock. As long as its well sealed nothing will get in or out, while still allowing your wort to breathe (air in or out). It will even help keep moisture in the ambient air out (Tyvek will permeate water, but only under pressure).

 

[Pesqueeb]

I'll have to look it up when I get home so I can cite sorces(i'm at work) but I recall reading in several different places that both the ice bath and/or introduction of cold water are pretty much fantastic ways to introduce bacteria into your wort. It also seems to me that it caused other problems as well. I'll edit later.

 

[Westy]

That's the plan, I was just trying to figure out if there was a reason this wasn't a good way to do it.



I actually considered that, but it costs money . Gallons of water are substantially cheaper and I need to buy them anyway to top the boil off.

Pffft. You don't have something as simple as dry ice sitting around your lab?

 

[pnj]

A sure fire way to keep any microbes and bacteria out would be to just integrate a piece of Tyvek into your air lock. As long as its well sealed nothing will get in or out, while still allowing your wort to breathe (air in or out). It will even help keep moisture in the ambient air out (Tyvek will permeate water, but only under pressure).

bucket lids don't seal as well as you think. If I capped the airlock, the air would suck in from the lid. Or, if the lid is sealed really well, the force from the bucket contracting would physically force the lid to pop off.

If I really cared, I'd use a WinPak jug and elliminate the airlock all together.

 

[jonKranked]

bucket lids don't seal as well as you think. If I capped the airlock, the air would suck in from the lid. Or, if the lid is sealed really well, the force from the bucket contracting would physically force the lid to pop off.

If I really cared, I'd use a WinPak jug and elliminate the airlock all together.

My point was, I honestly don't think cotton will do a sufficient job for its intended purpose here.

 

[binary visions]

I'll have to look it up when I get home so I can cite sorces(i'm at work) but I recall reading in several different places that both the ice bath and/or introduction of cold water are pretty much fantastic ways to introduce bacteria into your wort. It also seems to me that it caused other problems as well. I'll edit later.

More info, please.

You typically do these two things to rapidly cool the wort and reduce the chance of bacteria growing. Plus, of course, every brewing guide I've ever read recommends the ice bath.

I can't really see any reason why an ice bath or addition of clean cold water would be any more prone to introducing bacteria than a wort chiller, which, incidentally, could be a big source of contamination without proper cleaning...

 

[Pesqueeb]

More info, please.

yea, sorry. I meant to do that yesterday after work, but I was sicker than a dog by the time I got home and went to bed early. I'll get back to you.

 

[binary visions]

yea, sorry. I meant to do that yesterday after work, but I was sicker than a dog by the time I got home and went to bed early. I'll get back to you.

No excuses.

Beer is more important than sleep.

 

[BikeGeek]

I think what pesqueeb is referring to is that the longer you leave your <120F wort exposed to the environment the more likely you are to catch something. That said, I've had 1 wild yeast contamination in 6 years which is saying something considering I brew on the back porch and I aerate my cool wort by passing it back-and-forth between two buckets.

If you're worried about adding ice to your wort, boil the water, fill a clean/sanitized 2-liter soda bottle, cap and freeze. When it's needed, simply cut the bottle open and let the ice gently drop in to the wort. I did that for years with no problems. Now I have two copper immersion chillers tubed as one unit. The first 25' chiller goes in an ice bath to chill my water, the second 50' chiller goes in the wort. I can get from boiling to pitching in about 5 minutes. To decrease the risk of contamination, I'd have the wort chiller in a bucket of starsan ready to go, or put the wort chiller in the wort in the last 5 minutes of the boil.

Infections aren't really as common as most homebrewers fear as long as you're cleaning and sanitizing your equipment.

 

[Pesqueeb]

No excuses.

Beer is more important than sleep.

Damn slave driver.

I think what pesqueeb is referring to is that the longer you leave your <120F wort exposed to the environment the more likely you are to catch something.

Yes. The other problem that I couldn't remember in respect to an ice/cold water bath is the by the time the wort reaches pitching temps with these methods is

a flavor character reminiscent of sweet corn (really dimethyl-sulfide), it is best to chill as quickly as possible (1)

and

Its is almost essential that your fermentation system be closed(2)

As a side note everything I read tonight on this subject says any thing that comes in contact with the wort <160F should be sanitized. Think of fermentation as a race between the yeast in your wort to out breed what ever crazy stuff might make it into your wort. You can never completely eliminate all the crazy microbes and what not from your wort/equipment etc. Your job as the brewer is to give the yeast as much of a head start as possible. Most yeast won't make it if pitched above 80F, and if your wort is without yeast for however long it takes you to get from boiling to 80F, your giving other stuff a big head start.

Once the yeast is pitched it will grow and basically crowd out the competition (3)

Which brings up another subject, pitch as much, or at least the freshest yeast possible. I realize its impractical for most home brewers to have a yeast starter (I never do this for 5 gallon batches) but when your at the home brew shop, find the stuff with the furthest out expiration date. In my brief tenure at the local brewery we always pitched at least 2.5 gallons of active yeast and I remain unconvinced that that was enough for a 15 barrel batch.

if your pitching yeast is too small in volume or too weak to quickly take over the wort, other microbes may gain a foot hold and play havoc with the flavor of your beer.(4)

The first 25' chiller goes in an ice bath to chill my water, the second 50' chiller goes in the wort. I can get from boiling to pitching in about 5 minutes.

I like this idea a lot. Time to buy another chiller. I also have my chiller soak in my sanitizing solution which I then move into my boil for the last 5 minutes.
Hope this answers your question, sorry it took so long. Please don't beat me again BV


BTW.
(1) and (2) are quotes from Complete Joy of Home Brewing

(3) and (4) come from Amazon.com: Dave Miller&#39;s Homebrewing Guide: Everything You Need to Know to Make Great-Tasting Beer (9780882669052):&#133;@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51adPtvrCiL.@@AMEPARAM@@51adPtvrCiL

And, a complete run down on the extract process I highly recommend can be found here. (its changed since I moved, Steve says to not even boil the extract any more!) When I lived in the Pacific Northwest I bought most of my stuff from this shop, and the owner wrote many of the replicator recipes from Brew Your Own magazine, Steve knows his brew.

 

[Inclag]

What do you monkeys do who lack an immersion chiller?

Last brew, I froze two gallon jugs of water and after the boil, I simply cut the plastic off and dropped them in. That actually worked too well - two gallon jugs was too much and the temperature dropped precipitously.

Is there any reason I should not be doing this? A cold water bath will work but this is less messy and if I'm not boiling the full 5 gallons anyway, I need to bring the volume up.

Thoughts?

Ice is a breeding ground for bacteria

 

[binary visions]

Ice is a breeding ground for bacteria

Actually, it's precisely the opposite. Freezing bacteria inhibits their growth. Some bacteria can survive the freezing process, but cold temperatures stop the growth process.

Think about why we put food in the freezer or refrigerator.

You may be referring to those studies that said that ice machines were about the filthiest thing around but that has nothing to do with this.

I'm just thinking that there's nothing special about ice that spontaneously generates bacteria. It's beholden to the same clean practices as brewing. If you boil the water first or start with a sealed container, there's no place to introduce bacteria.

 

[jonKranked]

Bv, keep in mind that as the ice melts, any microbes contained within have the potential for re-animation.


edit: but yes, you are correct. Certain kinds of microbes can survive the freezing process (also depends if you are doing gradual freezing (what your home freezer does) or flash freezing). When frozen, microbes CANNOT reproduce/replicate.

 

[BikeGeek]

At the risk of getting really geeky:

You can never completely eliminate all the crazy microbes and what not from your wort/equipment etc.

Agreed, however most of what gets in there is not a beer-spoiling organism or is inhibited enough by the anti-microbial effect of the hops that the beer is gone before you notice the contamination.

Which brings up another subject, pitch as much, or at least the freshest yeast possible.

Fresh is always better. Pitch quantity really depends on the health of your yeast, fermentation characteristics of the yeast, and what you're looking for from your yeast. Higher pitching rates cause less yeast growth resulting in a decrease in the production of higher alcohols and esters (both important factors in beer flavor and aroma) and an increase in the production of acetaldehyde with its characteristic "green apple" aroma. If you're really trying to dial a recipe in, take note of things like yeast age at pitch, qty pitched (1 vial, 1 vial into a qt starter, into a 2 qt starter, etc). Try to tie that info to what you like/don't like about the beer being produced. We have beers that we really like fermented with 2nd or 3rd generation yeast. We bottle the 1st gen because we have to but we never use anything older than 3rd for this particular beer.

I realize its impractical for most home brewers to have a yeast starter (I never do this for 5 gallon batches) but when your at the home brew shop, find the stuff with the furthest out expiration date.

I still preach for and use a starter every time at home. You have no way of knowing what that yeast has been through to get to you. I've looked under the scope at yeast that was packaged less than a week before I got it and found that 75% was dead, simply due to handling.

In my brief tenure at the local brewery we always pitched at least 2.5 gallons of active yeast and I remain unconvinced that that was enough for a 15 barrel batch.

That does seem low, but maybe that's what they determined worked best for their yeast or delivered the flavor profile they were looking for. It's typically 1 mil cells/ml per degree Plato for ales, but we have an ale yeast that we pitch at less than a third of that because we like the results.