[MikeD]

This issue seems so fueled by a lack of realism on all sides. Here's my take...tell me how stupid I am.

A, Illegal/undocumented immigrants are already here. Lots of them. You've got 3 choices...ignore their presence, deport them all, or arrange some sort of amnesty/registration scheme (including a suitability screening and potential deportation of known criminals). #1's obviously not working anymore, #2 is waaaay too resource-intensive and economically detrimental. That leaves us with option #3.

B, There's a constant flood of people trying to jump the border. Even if you've got a registration scheme, people will continue to cross illegally unless you make it #1 physically impossible through militarization of the entire border or #2 undesirable to do so, and preferable to do it legally. #1 is way too resource intensive to consider.

So we're left with making it undesirable. That means that illegals will not have jobs to draw them here. The only answer to that is to make it economically undesirable for companies to hire them. This means tough enforcement and big fines for anyone hiring illegal aliens. When it's no longer cost-effective to risk the fines, it will be preferable to use registered guest workers. And it ashould be a lot more managable to inspect companies, especially if there's a good high-tech registration program. Such a program will still be a bear to manage, but I'll speculate that it'll be easier than trying to control the entire border. And the fines for hiring illegally will have to be very, very big, or include asset forfeiture, in order to prevent employers from running the risk.

Then again, this kind of program will require a lot of domestic surveillance...might be unpalatable for us. I mean, who's keeping tabs on the random rich person hiring a maid or two? Dunno...just speculating here. I just don't see any other way to deal with the issue. We can't control the border entirely, so we should probably focus on making fewer people want to jump it.

Talk to me, goose...

MD

 

[ohio]

Yes. Nice post. First intelligent one on the subject I've seen yet.

edit: so to actually address the specifics

I'm all for amnesty and registration, and I see the problem as one that is driven as much by demand (companies seeking to cut corners) as supply (folks jumping borders [yes, I rhymed that on purpose. I rule]) It is both more scalable and sustainable to enforce compliance at employers than on individual offenders. Will we ever get every nanny and maid? Probably not, but if we can get farms, restaurants, and other employers of MULTIPLE illegals, we would drop the demand significantly enough to have a huge impact, not to mention that the program might pay for itself through increased tax revenues.

 

[schweino1]

i like your perspective, i have to agree...

#3 for the ones allready there...

and have no job for the ones trying to make it in... enforcing is a must...

 

[schweino1]

o, i forgot...

#2 for all the ones that enter from now on...

 

[LordOpie]

What's wrong with ignoring the problem?

But if you want to make it undesirable, the solution is simple: switch from income taxes to national sales (consumption) tax (25%?) and give every tax payer a large ($10k?) refund at the end of the year.

That would discourage illegals from trying to get here since 1/3 (national+state sales taxes) would disappear from their $3-4/hr 'paycheck'. That'd make it harder for them to live here and send money back to their families down south.

 

[Transcend]

It's not really a problem if you just ignore it. It works. None of the other options do.

You can't say if someone has been here for 10 years or 10 hours. You have no way of knowing that. You can't millitarize the border, and as pointed out, you can't honestly hope to surveil everyone hiring someone to do yard work.

I actually like the sales tax idea. Pay taxes on what you purchase, and save what you can. In the long run, people would be better with their money. We pay 15% sales tax here, on top of pretty high income tax, so maybe I am just used to it. Question is, in the long run, woudl the Gov't make more money off of this scheme or less? It also seems like it would REALLY encourage the black market and/or smuggling.

 

[Changleen]

The trouble is that Maverick won't engage.

 

[ohio]

I actually like the sales tax idea. ...


It also seems like it would REALLY encourage the black market and/or smuggling.

It's functionally impossible to implement a pure consumption tax for that very reason, though it would create a HUGE boom for border towns and tourist destinations.

 

[MikeD]

sales taxes also tax lower income people far more, proportionally, than rich people. When you don't have much money, most of what you earn is spent on the goods you need to live. When you've got lots, much of it is saved/re-invested in various ways, not spent.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

sales taxes also tax lower income people far more, proportionally, than rich people. When you don't have much money, most of what you earn is spent on the goods you need to live. When you've got lots, much of it is saved/re-invested in various ways, not spent.

MD

which is why everyone gets a large tax refund ($10k?) each year. The really poor wind up paying no taxes or even coming out a few bucks ahead.

It'll also encourage people to work. Let's say you can only get a refund up to the amount you earned. So the fast food worker making $6/hr will 'earn' ~$22k/yr... their salary plus the tax refund.

Meanwhile, the illegal makes $4/hr and his take home pay is essentially $3/hr or $6,000/yr (based on 40hr/week). That would seriously discourage illegal immigration.

 

[LordOpie]

by the way, what's wrong with ignoring the problem? Seems like the least resource intensive solution?

 

[stinkyboy]

Let them do what they want in exchange for me the right to commit 1 free felony too.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Let them do what they want in exchange for me the right to commit 1 free felony too.

[Milton] Gun-gun-gunna b-b-burn the place d-d-do-down.[/Milton]

 

[Toshi]

Meanwhile, the illegal makes $4/hr and his take home pay is essentially $3/hr or $6,000/yr (based on 40hr/week). That would seriously discourage illegal immigration.

you assume that all poor people are illegals, and vice versa.

about the original proposal, i think a huge registration scheme is infeasible unless the culture changes a lot (and i sincerely hope that we don't continue going down that route).

 

[LordOpie]

you assume that all poor people are illegals, and vice versa.

really? "all poor people are illegals"?

 

[Toshi]

really? "all poor people are illegals"?

how does your plan take into account people who work part time at a low paying job who aren't illegals? as i understand your plan, the tax is supposed to be a punitive measure to encourage illegals to return home. what do you think its effect on these poor citizens will be?

 

[LordOpie]

how does your plan take into account people who work part time at a low paying job who aren't illegals? as i understand your plan, the tax is supposed to be a punitive measure to encourage illegals to return home. what do you think its effect on these poor citizens will be?

did you miss this...

which is why everyone gets a large tax refund ($10k?) each year. The really poor wind up paying no taxes or even coming out a few bucks ahead.

It'll also encourage people to work. Let's say you can only get a refund up to the amount you earned. So the fast food worker making $6/hr will 'earn' ~$22k/yr... their salary plus the tax refund.

Seems like it would bring EVERY legal worker above the poverty level, yeah?

 

[DRB]

Why are we talking about this again?

I'm more worried about port security, illogical EPA regulations and a national forest policy that defies explanation. Oh and that whole CIA leak thingy................

 

[Reactor]

This issue seems so fueled by a lack of realism on all sides. Here's my take...tell me how stupid I am.

A, Illegal/undocumented immigrants are already here. Lots of them. You've got 3 choices...ignore their presence, deport them all, or arrange some sort of amnesty/registration scheme (including a suitability screening and potential deportation of known criminals). #1's obviously not working anymore, #2 is waaaay too resource-intensive and economically detrimental. That leaves us with option #3.

B, There's a constant flood of people trying to jump the border. Even if you've got a registration scheme, people will continue to cross illegally unless you make it #1 physically impossible through militarization of the entire border or #2 undesirable to do so, and preferable to do it legally. #1 is way too resource intensive to consider.

So we're left with making it undesirable. That means that illegals will not have jobs to draw them here. The only answer to that is to make it economically undesirable for companies to hire them. This means tough enforcement and big fines for anyone hiring illegal aliens. When it's no longer cost-effective to risk the fines, it will be preferable to use registered guest workers. And it ashould be a lot more managable to inspect companies, especially if there's a good high-tech registration program. Such a program will still be a bear to manage, but I'll speculate that it'll be easier than trying to control the entire border. And the fines for hiring illegally will have to be very, very big, or include asset forfeiture, in order to prevent employers from running the risk.

Then again, this kind of program will require a lot of domestic surveillance...might be unpalatable for us. I mean, who's keeping tabs on the random rich person hiring a maid or two? Dunno...just speculating here. I just don't see any other way to deal with the issue. We can't control the border entirely, so we should probably focus on making fewer people want to jump it.

Talk to me, goose...

MD

Very cogent ..... and already reject by the republican majority as being anti-business and too costly.

 

[Silver]

I'm more worried about port security

We should hire only illegal aliens for the Customs service and tell them that every time something gets through, a few of them get deported.

As you can tell, I'm a solutions oriented guy...

 

[richcreek]

the only way to completely stop border hoping is to militerize the hole boarder! serriously that is the only option. there should be a way for them to leaguley come to the us thought

 

[BurlyShirley]

What's so bad about minefields, pill boxes and concertina wire?

 

[ohio]

Why are we talking about this again?

I'm more worried about port security, illogical EPA regulations and a national forest policy that defies explanation. Oh and that whole CIA leak thingy................

That's exactly why we're talking about this.

Watch the dancing monkey. Dance, monkey, dance!

 

[Transcend]

the only way to completely stop border hoping is to militerize the hole boarder! serriously that is the only option. there should be a way for them to leaguley come to the us thought

I hope they chose to attend a school in Mexico, if you are what the US education system is putting out at the moment.

Do you even realize how big the US borders are?

 

[Toshi]

did you miss this...

Seems like it would bring EVERY legal worker above the poverty level, yeah?

what about legal part time workers at minimum wage?

 

[ohio]

I hope they chose to attend a school in Mexico, if you are what the US education system is putting out at the moment.

Do you even realize how big the US borders are?

5 or 6 inches depending on the map?

 

[luelling]

I have to interject. Two things first off...I don't agree with coming to this country illegally as I'm only second gen American from Ireland (they came legally).....and I have a friend whose wife has been standing in line for citizenship for five years and has yet to obtain it (shes a Canadian with a degree/job in x-ray tech).

So to the problem at hand...first off, we CAN'T deport all the illegals, that would probably cuase a collapse in our economy. You may or may not believe this but there is a good chance at it....they do a ton of jobs that you and I wouldn't do and that is a fact. On the split side I don't think they should be handed their citizenship.....mainly becuase of people who have respectuflly waited in line for years to get it (like my friends wife in the process and numerous friends).

I do agree with the Mcaine/Ted Kennedy approach of allowing them to file and pay some fines (added money to reduce our ****y deficiet). This issue is waaaaaaaaaaaay more complex than anyone is willing to admit. I read a newsweek article in the last two weeks (I tried hard to find the link) and the guy made the point that Ireland was doing the same thing to the rest of Europe until Western Europe bit the bullet, gave them and aid package and helped develope their economy....all of the money was repaid and now Ireland is one of the wealthiest countries in Europe. Morale being that people from Hispanic areas come here becuase the pay (even at minimum wage) is a crapload better than they are getting down there. Numbers are an avg in the US for income at 45k and in Mexico its 9k...think about how much you last DH bike costs....about half that yearly wage??

This is a long rant but I do think we should tighten the border, reform the damn immigration system for people that want to come here and work (like my friends wife) and fine, but allow the illegals to get their legal status. As far as you fools that don't think they pay taxes you are in the dark. Illegals are actually some of our best taxed...because they typically use a stolen or made up SSN and the taxes are withdrawn...but they never collect a refund...that means the government pockets all the money.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

What's so bad about minefields, pill boxes and concertina wire?

and then... after you walled the south border for trillions of bucks, and hire and pony up for 10k more soldiers to patrol (thats like one every quarter mile or so), i could fly to miami legally on a tourist visa, shake hands with the customs dude at the airport, take a cab out.... and stay after the 3-6 months they usually give...

and i pwn3d your wall!!!!!

 

[sanjuro]

ship all illegal immigrants to afghanistan. if they find osama, they earn their citizenship and $500.

 

[MikeD]

Talked with a border patrol guy the other day. Guess what? It's already a felony to cross the border illegally... doesn't cover all people present without papers, but covers most. And there's already a guest worker status in our visa system...it's just never been used in the memory of anyone I've spoken to. (I assume because there's not actually a program granting this visa status in the first place.)

So it seems what we may need is a review, tweak, and implementation of what we already have. But that wouldn't make such a political circus, would it?

 

[Pau11y]

LO, your tax idea is flawed. For those citizens/legals who are dirt poor, a huge sales tax increase will only hurt. The big-ass refund isn't going to do a damn bit of good when their immediate situation is their loaf of bred and can of tuna goes from $2.00 to $3.00 or higher. Their ability to afford the necessities which they sometimes already can't, will be even less. As an explicit case to counter your idea: for a signle mother raising three kids that's "just" making it, a tax increase of 50% numerically means she's putting one of her kids up for adoption or in a foster home (not exactly...but you know what I mean). And generally, the poor becomes even more poor while the rich isn't affected. That seems a very George W of an idea (you wouldn't happen to be a Republican would ya... )

 

[LordOpie]

LO, your tax idea is flawed. For those citizens/legals who are dirt poor, a huge sales tax increase will only hurt.

It doesn't take an understanding of economics, just math.

If there's a big enough tax rebate to offset the increase in costs so that a poor family isn't burden, then how are dirt poor hurt?

If you want to discuss economics, then good... did you know that all taxes a company pays is passed on in the cost of the good itself? Imagine if there were no taxes except sales tax? The cost of goods would go down by an approximate amount that said company wouldn't have to pay. The cost of the good (without income taxes) + national sales tax + state tax isn't going to be that much higher than they are today.

Please understand the math and economics before you insult me... calling me a republican. Bah!

 

[DaveW]

What's wrong with ignoring the problem?

That goes so well with your signature ........

:mumble: Osama bin forgotten:mumble:

 

[LordOpie]

That goes so well with your signature ........

uhh, did you just equate illegals with terrorists?

 

[DaveW]

uhh, did you just equate illegals with terrorists?

Perhaps... but not in the way you infer it.

I just find it amusing the way your post says "Hey there's a problem.. it's too big lets ignore it", and in the same post your sig says "hey this is a problem why are we ignoring it?"

Cross border smuggling and people smugling has probably caused as much death and human misery around the world (if not more) than Bin Ladin's mob of retards.

 

[noname]

LO, your tax idea is flawed. For those citizens/legals who are dirt poor, a huge sales tax increase will only hurt. The big-ass refund isn't going to do a damn bit of good when their immediate situation is their loaf of bred and can of tuna goes from $2.00 to $3.00 or higher. Their ability to afford the necessities which they sometimes already can't, will be even less. As an explicit case to counter your idea: for a signle mother raising three kids that's "just" making it, a tax increase of 50% numerically means she's putting one of her kids up for adoption or in a foster home (not exactly...but you know what I mean). And generally, the poor becomes even more poor while the rich isn't affected. That seems a very George W of an idea (you wouldn't happen to be a Republican would ya... )

I believe Opie is discussing the Fair Tax. I'll try to explain it better for you, maybe then it will make more sense.
The first thing you have to understand is that businesses don't actually pay taxes. They figure out how much they need to make, estimate the cost, include their tax burden, then increase the cost to cover that tax while still leaving them the money they originally decided they needed. We refer to this as an embedded tax. The tax burdens of all people involved in the supply chain, hidden in the retail price of the goods.
When you go to a store, the average product has an embedded tax of about 22 percent. If you buy something that costs one hundred dollars, 22 dollars of that purchase actually went to pay the tax burden of the manufacturer, the materials suppliers, the delivery services, etc. Then you still have to pay the sales tax at the counter, as well as the fed. and state income taxes on your paychecks.
The fair tax elimenates all other taxes in exchange for a 30 percent consumption tax. It also allows a refund estimated on the cost of food/clothing for people. A monthly check to cover the taxes paid toward the neccessities. This way when you get your check you get all of it and don't pay any taxes till you buy something new(no taxes on used goods)
With a consumtion tax, goods that were once 100 dollars would quickly drop down to about 78-80 dollars, making their after tax cost roughly the same or less than it was with the curent tax system of income and sales taxes. Prices on goods at the counter would not go up, but peoples real spendable/savable income would go up dramatically.
Unlike citizens who would get the rebate checks every month, illegals would not, although they would be paying the same tax. That alone would be more than enough incentive to entice them to become legal citizens.

 

[noname]

Perhaps... but not in the way you imply it.

I just find it amusing the way your post says "Hey there's a problem.. it's too big lets ignore it", and in the same post your sig says "hey this is a porblem why are we ignoring it?"

Cross border smuggling and people smugling has probably caused as much death and human misery around the world (if not more) than Bin Ladin's mob of retards.

People smuggling sucks no doubt, and is a very sad affair, my heart goes out to any one so desperate and determined to make a better way for themselves and their families that they would risk their life to achieve entry to this country and it's opportunities.
That being said, they are not the only ones trying to get here. Google the gang MS13. They are all over the place in Nova and other areas, they're a pretty ruthless gang started by and still primarily illegals. There is a huge problem with criminals entering this country illegally.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Right.

My issue isnt so much with the economics of it all, as with simple lack of accountability. It's scary, actually...given recent world events.

 

[noname]

Right.

My issue isnt so much with the economics of it all, as with simple lack of accountability. It's scary, actually...given recent world events.

right, but if we could create a system that encourages immigrants to become legal, rather than remain illegal, we can then divert those existing resources to boarder security.

 

[Pau11y]

I believe Opie is discussing the Fair Tax. I'll try to explain it better for you, maybe then it will make more sense.
The first thing you have to understand is that businesses don't actually pay taxes. They figure out how much they need to make, estimate the cost, include their tax burden, then increase the cost to cover that tax while still leaving them the money they originally decided they needed. We refer to this as an embedded tax. The tax burdens of all people involved in the supply chain, hidden in the retail price of the goods.
When you go to a store, the average product has an embedded tax of about 22 percent. If you buy something that costs one hundred dollars, 22 dollars of that purchase actually went to pay the tax burden of the manufacturer, the materials suppliers, the delivery services, etc. Then you still have to pay the sales tax at the counter, as well as the fed. and state income taxes on your paychecks.
The fair tax elimenates all other taxes in exchange for a 30 percent consumption tax. It also allows a refund estimated on the cost of food/clothing for people. A monthly check to cover the taxes paid toward the neccessities. This way when you get your check you get all of it and don't pay any taxes till you buy something new(no taxes on used goods)
With a consumtion tax, goods that were once 100 dollars would quickly drop down to about 78-80 dollars, making their after tax cost roughly the same or less than it was with the curent tax system of income and sales taxes. Prices on goods at the counter would not go up, but peoples real spendable/savable income would go up dramatically.
Unlike citizens who would get the rebate checks every month, illegals would not, although they would be paying the same tax. That alone would be more than enough incentive to entice them to become legal citizens.

Ahhh.. Now the back of my eyeball hurts! Thanx noname for the breakdown. Funny this wasn't even really discussed in my intro econ classes...
Oh LO, you know you're a GW luva. C'mon, admit it