In over my head?

ThePriceSeliger · Feb 16, 2006

Most shops should build it even if you didn't buy it there. I would have them do things you can't, and then finish it off yourself just to save money, or maybe you have a friend who doesn't work there to help you out. The only thing you REALLY need a stand for is what they will be doing at the shop. I've been able to build a bike just inbetween my legs and upside down.
As long as you are going to the shop for business, I doubt they will care.
I used to ride for a shop, then I left the team for something better, and they would rip me off so bad on parts if needed, so when I got my new frame from Go-Ride, I took it in there and used their tools and left, just to kind of throw it in their face.

splat · Feb 16, 2006

Suck it up princess and build it .

It really is not that hard. and you can live with out a Work stand , it may bew a pain but it can be done. plus make a Make**** one out of milk crates or something.

and if you have problems just ask here on the monkey , Unless you are in a rush for this bike , do it your self , you'll learn a lot more about your bike that way.

jacksonpt · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
Will most shops build a bike for you if you bring a frame in & a box of componets bought elsewhere? I dont see why not as they charge you for labor.

Yes. Any decent shop will, and from what I've seen, it's generally about $100 in labor.

Mackie · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
I am torn.
I have originally planned on building up my CX frame myself but now after much deliberation ....I dont know. Here are my issues....

Here's what i would do - get the frame faced & chased at a shop, and while you are there, have them put in the headset & bb. Maybe put the crown race on the fork.

After that, you are done with the shop. Nothing else on the bike needs special tools (other than hex keys), and nothing else is that hard to do. You certainly don't NEED a stand.

If you need help or get stuck, check the park tool site, or come here & ask. This is not rocket science, you can do it.

On the other hand, perhaps this is to much for you to handle right now. Just mail me that sweet Monk frame & i'll dispose of it properly......

dan-o · Feb 16, 2006

Mackie said:
good advice

Once the parts needing special tools are installed the rest is pretty easy. After building a bike you realize how straight forward most bike mechanical work is.

DNA · Feb 16, 2006

Mackie said:
Here's what i would do - get the frame faced & chased at a shop, and while you are there, have them put in the headset & bb. Maybe put the crown race on the fork.

After that, you are done with the shop. Nothing else on the bike needs special tools (other than hex keys), and nothing else is that hard to do. You certainly don't NEED a stand.

If you need help or get stuck, check the park tool site, or come here & ask. This is not rocket science, you can do it.

What he said.

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

jacksonpt said:
Yes. Any decent shop will, and from what I've seen, it's generally about $100 in labor.

Wow - I have never heard of more than $65, and I would personally do it for around $40. I don't have a facing tool, but have yet to find the modern frame that needed it, or the threads chased. It'll cost too much in gas money, or I would build it Fred. You can always start and call on us when you have problems. I can give you a number to call if you need help.

Skookum · Feb 16, 2006

Everything is pretty damn easy if you have a little bit of common sense, but it's super time consuming when you don't know the "little tricks" and don't have the proper tools.

i use my lbs shop to do my work, and if i have work done and i'm interested i watch and observe.

Parks has online instructions on stuff, and there are books as well.

If people are nice enough to build your bike, maybe people are nice enough to allow you to learn as well.

DNA · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
You guys make it sound easy enough, but I still dont know. I mean...I have a hard time getting my bike to shift right when I try & tune it up myself. I do figure it will be easier than working on an old hunk of junk with rusty, stripped parts.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Loco: I dont know if I could afford to buy you enough beer to make it worth your while.

Dude, bring it to Devil's Den. Me and Cooter will put it together. I promise I won't let him touch the bike after he has had his tenth beer (or maybe that should be before his tenth beer :rolleyes:

).

It is generally much easier to install new stuff than it is to work on a ragged out bike.

Loco is right about most new frames not needing chased or faced.

jimmydean · Feb 16, 2006

I have built quite a few bikes at my old lbs using parts I got elsewhere. I have also spent a lot on parts there over the years. They have a stand in the back and a bench full of tools (I bring a lot of my own too) just for that.

They help me with things like getting the shifting dialed, bleeding the brakes (easier with two people), making sure it all works. Most of the time, I end up replacing something while I'm there too, so they know I'm good for at least a few bucks.

My last bike, I got a lesson in wheel building when I bought the hoops and spokes there. I brought the hubs in and they showed me how to measure, lace, and tension the whole deal. It was on Thom's lunch hour, so he didn't mind. I paid for his lunch and he was cool with that.

OGRipper · Feb 16, 2006

Yeah Mackie has the right idea except you should probably have them cut the fork too. From there, go for it, if you plan to be riding bikes for a while there is no better time to get started. It may take a little more time and money now but in the long run you will save a lot of both by knowing how to do it yourself. Plus if you build your own stuff it's easier to know what's up when something isn't working right.

If you haven't bought the parts there you should expect the shop to upcharge a little bit and not be too kind if something is the wrong part.

$40 for building an entire bike seems really cheap for someone walking in with a frame and a box of parts, but it depends on where you are. You couldn't get that done for less than $100 in most shops around here (SF) and it would probably be more.

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
You guys make it sound easy enough, but I still dont know. I mean...I have a hard time getting my bike to shift right when I try & tune it up myself. I do figure it will be easier than working on an old hunk of junk with rusty, stripped parts.

There's no better way to learn than to do it. Go for it.

Like everybody else said, crown race, BB, and headset are the only things you need special tools for. Cutting the steering tube and setting the star nut can be done at home but it is probably the most stressful part of building the bike yourself. Cut the tube too short and you are screwed. Measure twice cut once. Hell, measure 3 or 4 times. Setting the starnut is just a royal pain in the fingers.

sanjuro · Feb 16, 2006

Firstly, what kind of frame is it?

Secondly, tapping the BB or facing the headtube is not always necessary. Usually only after you install the headset do you realize something is wrong with the headtube. If you can't screw the BB by hand, then look to a shop.

Cutting the fork is a snap, as long as you have a file to smooth the cut.

But you would not be the first guy to walk into a shop with a frame, fork, headset, and BB; and ask for the mechanic on duty to install it.

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
Its a Soul Cycles Monk.

What a coincidence! I'm building a monk for my wife right now. I have everything put together but I haven't cabled it yet. I should get pictures in the next day or so. They redid the decals and paint on mine and it looks freakin' sweet. If you get it direct from soulcycles, they will put the BB and headset in for you at no cost.

DNA · Feb 16, 2006

DD is February 24-26. I think that I will get there around noon on Friday and stay through Sat. day. I'm not sure if I will drive home Sat. or Sun.

ito · Feb 16, 2006

jacksonpt said:
Yes. Any decent shop will, and from what I've seen, it's generally about $100 in labor.

Wow, your shop is a lot nicer than most I know.

Around here $70 covers a full tune up.

I could possibly see a mountain bike build up costing $100, but not a CX or road bike. Actually even a mountain bike would be more than $100 unless it was SS and even then at least $150 if you want the headtube and bb shell faced and chased.

If you have a mechanic friend who can do it all see if he is up to it and buy him a case or so of beer.

A bike that comes to us boxed (ie headset, bb, cranks installed, just need to put together and tune, no cable installs or such) costs $80.

A bike build from the frame up is about $250, especially with a CX bike where you need to do STI shifting and brake install and handlebar wrapping. Once again, headtube facing is pricey just because the tools are damn expensive and most shops rarely do it. Same with the bb facing and chasing.

Like someone said before, facing is not necessary unless the company really messed up on the paint. Even then you can usually chip ir away with a razor blade (box cutter works best). You can also make your own headset press for about $10 at a local hardware store. Assuming you have cable cutters and know how to wrap handlebars and do STI housing install you should be fine until it comes to the derailleurs, then you definitely need to know what you are doing.

The Ito

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

TN said:
did you get yours faced & chased?

Yes, they prep all their frames before they ship. I think the majority of frame manufacturers do. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Who doesn't prep their frames?

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

ito said:
Wow, your shop is a lot nicer than most I know.

Around here $70 covers a full tune up.

I could possibly see a mountain bike build up costing $100, but not a CX or road bike. Actually even a mountain bike would be more than $100 unless it was SS and even then at least $150 if you want the headtube and bb shell faced and chased.

If you have a mechanic friend who can do it all see if he is up to it and buy him a case or so of beer.

A bike that comes to us boxed (ie headset, bb, cranks installed, just need to put together and tune, no cable installs or such) costs $80.

A bike build from the frame up is about $250, especially with a CX bike where you need to do STI shifting and brake install and handlebar wrapping. Once again, headtube facing is pricey just because the tools are damn expensive and most shops rarely do it. Same with the bb facing and chasing.

Like someone said before, facing is not necessary unless the company really messed up on the paint. Even then you can usually chip ir away with a razor blade (box cutter works best). You can also make your own headset press for about $10 at a local hardware store. Assuming you have cable cutters and know how to wrap handlebars and do STI housing install you should be fine until it comes to the derailleurs, then you definitely need to know what you are doing.

The Ito

Jesus, man. How much does a whole bike cost at your shop??? I charge the shop $40 when I build for them. They only charge $65. I build production bikes that come mostly assembled for $5-$10. A complete road bike only takes 2 hours or so, including wheel truing, so $250 seems out of site.

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

ito said:
Assuming you have cable cutters

I shall add that a Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel makes a damn fine cable housing cutter and won't crush the housing. A good sharp lineman's dyke (ha ha I said dyke) will cut the actual cables like butta.

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

jdschall said:
Yes, they prep all their frames before they ship. I think the majority of frame manufacturers do. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Who doesn't prep their frames?

I haven't received a frame from IRD, Giant, Salsa, Jamis, Tommaso, or Soma that had the head tube faced.

sanjuro · Feb 16, 2006

loco said:
I haven't received a frame from IRD, Giant, Salsa, Jamis, Tommaso, or Soma that had the head tube faced.

Could it be that all those frames are coming from the same factory? Being worked on by my avatar?

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

sanjuro said:
Could it be that all those frames are coming from the same factory? Being worked on by my avatar?

It could be. I would assume they all come from Taiwan. I don't think Giant does the other guys though. Taiwan for sure.

btw - Dean didn't face or ream sh*t when I paid them $400 for a weld on the dropout and powdercoat from Spectrum. Additionally - they burned a swelled spot in the seat tube by welding too hot and everyone had just used a 26.8 post. It slipped. Turns out that I buffed it with a dremel tool and the 27.2 fit like it was supposed to. Thanks but I will stick with sweat shop frames. :thumb:

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

I guess some companies take pride in their work and finish the job and some don't. What can I say?

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

jdschall said:
I guess some companies take pride in their work and finish the job and some don't. What can I say?

I'll add - I have not faced any, or chased any threads, and have had zero problems.

*Giant did face the disc tabs on my new Reign. Not the head tube though.

sanjuro · Feb 16, 2006

loco said:
Jesus, man. How much does a whole bike cost at your shop??? I charge the shop $40 when I build for them. They only charge $65. I build production bikes that come mostly assembled for $5-$10. A complete road bike only takes 2 hours or so, including wheel truing, so $250 seems out of site.

You're paid $20/hr to build bikes. Most shops have a $50-70 work rate, which includes upkeep and other expenses.

If you tap the BB and face the headtube, I can easily see charging at least $70 for that kind of service.

While $250 seems a little steep for a complete build, including frame prep, I noticed the smadoodiest shop in SF, City Cycle, charges $195 for a tune-up!

BTW, I wouldn't want someone who builds bikes for $5 a pop to ever come near a bike I owned.

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

loco said:
I'll add - I have not faced any, or chased any threads, and have had zero problems.

*Giant did face the disc tabs on my new Reign. Not the head tube though.

Then I guess if they get it right the first time then there is no need...

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

sanjuro said:
You're paid $20/hr to build bikes. Most shops have a $50-70 work rate, which includes upkeep and other expenses.

If you tap the BB and face the headtube, I can easily see charging at least $70 for that kind of service.

While $250 seems a little steep for a complete build, including frame prep, I noticed the smadoodiest shop in SF, City Cycle, charges $195 for a tune-up!

BTW, I wouldn't want someone who builds bikes for $5 a pop to ever come near a bike I owned.

I just do it as a favor for the shop owner. He is a friend and hooks me up on stuff. I just help when he is behind. I take as much care on a cheap bike as I do on a boutique bike. As far as facing goes - it can take time, as you must be careful. Chasing is pretty idiot proof and requires little to no effort. I don't see it being worth more than 5 or 10 bucks for frame prep. With the right tools, it's nothing. You can't do it without the right tools, so you see where I am going with this. More than $40 for a tune up is a rip off here.

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

jdschall said:
Then I guess if they get it right the first time then there is no need...

Yeah - I've had no problems.

sanjuro · Feb 16, 2006

loco said:
I just do it as a favor for the shop owner. He is a friend and hooks me up on stuff. I just help when he is behind. I take as much care on a cheap bike as I do on a boutique bike. As far as facing goes - it can take time, as you must be careful. Chasing is pretty idiot proof and requires little to no effort. I don't see it being worth more than 5 or 10 bucks for frame prep. With the right tools, it's nothing. You can't do it without the right tools, so you see where I am going with this. More than $40 for a tune up is a rip off here.

I disagree about the chasing. Tools get worn, and some newb mechanic starts chasing your BB with a tired tap, good bye threads. Seen it happen.

JRB · Feb 16, 2006

sanjuro said:
I disagree about the chasing. Tools get worn, and some newb mechanic starts chasing your BB with a tired tap, good bye threads. Seen it happen.

True - it should read "good tools" and no newb should ever have a facing or chasing tool in their hands.

urbaindk · Feb 16, 2006

I'm pretty sure tune-ups are a rip off in general. My local shop charges $20 to true a wheel. I had them do it once, found out how much it cost and then went and bought a truing stand and learned to do it myself. It paid for itself about 4 trues later.

I think that's generally true of most parts of the bike. You want to replace the bottom bracket. Go buy the tools. Repeat as necessary and you'll come out way ahead monetarily. Plus you will have the knowledge and the tools to earn beer and other payment in-kind from your friends.

sanjuro · Feb 16, 2006

jdschall said:
I'm pretty sure tune-ups are a rip off in general. My local shop charges $20 to true a wheel. I had them do it once, found out how much it cost and then went and bought a truing stand and learned to do it myself. It paid for itself about 4 trues later.

I think that's generally true of most parts of the bike. You want to replace the bottom bracket. Go buy the tools. Repeat as necessary and you'll come out way ahead monetarily. Plus you will have the knowledge and the tools to earn beer and other payment in-kind from your friends.

Frankly, most "basic" repairs are easily done by your home mechanic. The rates might seem high, but this is what needs to be charged so a shop can stay open. This also subsidizes the repair that takes twice as long as expected.

urbaindk · Feb 17, 2006

For the BB just look at the threads. If there's paint on them they need chasing. Or if you can't screw in the bb by hand it needs chasing.

I have no idea how to tell if the headtube needs facing though...

JRogers · Feb 17, 2006

As others have said, build it yourself. It's a great way to get better. Working without a stand makes it take more time, but I have built 2 or 3 bikes without a stand and it went fine, just took a little longer. I am not the best mechanic, but I learned a good deal from building my own bikes up.

ito · Feb 17, 2006

loco said:
Jesus, man. How much does a whole bike cost at your shop??? I charge the shop $40 when I build for them. They only charge $65. I build production bikes that come mostly assembled for $5-$10. A complete road bike only takes 2 hours or so, including wheel truing, so $250 seems out of site.

Hourly rate at our shop is $60. This is actually below average in Silicon Valley.

Bike builders at our shop make $10 for a production out of the bike build.

When I say $250 for a frame up build I'm including a lot more than just the labor. First off we offer a minor tune-up free for the first year the bike is in service. On bikes we sell that is a lifetime mini tune-up. We also make sure the bike is fitted to you before we let it out the door. For a road bike fitting that can take up to an hour depending on the customer. If there are any problems with the bike due to the mechanic's error then we will take care of it free of charge (this often covers rider error as well for the first month or so). Finally when someone has a frame and wants to build up parts we will walk them through the purchasing of each part and give them advice on components choices. Obviously we don't do all of this on every bike, but it is all covered under the same charge.

Likewise we do charge according to level of bike. A kid's bike is going to cost less to build up than a $5k road bike. We also don't let the kid we hired last week build up your Campy Record spec'ed road bike

So does that sound completely unreasonable?

Also, the $40 you charge a shop to build up a bike from the frame up, how much do they charge the customer?

The Ito

P.S. If this is considered "advertising" I'll delete it, just let me know. I won't mention the shop name however.

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