[Tenchiro]

Funny...I've never seen a mac like that...

I have seen people do things to their macs (and PC's) that would make you lose sleep.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Which you can easily do on both PC and Macs.

Uhh..no.

Perfect example: My parents are HORRIBLE computer users. Their PC was LOADED with crap. Spyware, viruses, adware...anything you can imagine. They don't do it intentionally...just through regular amateur computer usage they contracted all that crap.

6 months after getting a Mac, it's still clean....and trust me, it's not because they've learned a lesson.

 

[binary visions]

6 months after getting a Mac, it's still clean....and trust me, it's not because they've learned a lesson.

No, THAT'S because your parents now have a machine that 90% of the viruses and spyware isn't written for.

No arguements there, you have a teeny tiny market share and the list of viruses and spyware is appropriately long.

If Macs made up 50% of the market, they would have 50% of the viruses and 50% of the spyware.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Like I said, it's not clear cut one way or another since it's so subjective. Have you taken into account how rabidly loyal Mac users are? Rabidly loyal customers are typically very unlikely to complain about a product, even if it's not that great.

Sure...there are Mac owners who are blinded by their love for Mac...but you have to ask where that love comes from. When I talk about happy Mac users, I'm referring mostly to recent converts - people who used PCs their whole life then switched to Mac and would never consider going back.

There are so many variables present... Hell, even consider the tiny market share Apple has - what kind of users are buying these machines? Are those users a good cross section of the general public who often ruins their machines by installing six billion games on it, or who browses porn sites all day and is hit by spyware that's designed for the majority of the market (Windows)?

Sure, most viruses, spyware, etc are targeted towards Windows, that's the reason they're more commonly infected, but...all the more reason to buy a Mac no?

Yes, you can say I'm speaking from my subjective experiences...but what else is there? I spent my life on PCs, and switched to Mac last year, so if anything, my allegiances should lie with PC, but Mac is just that much better.

 

[Ridemonkey]

No, THAT'S because your parents now have a machine that 90% of the viruses and spyware isn't written for.

No arguements there, you have a teeny tiny market share and the list of viruses and spyware is appropriately long.

If Macs made up 50% of the market, they would have 50% of the viruses and 50% of the spyware.

Right...so wouldn't it make more sense to buy a machine that isn't targeted? Maybe 10 years from now that won't be the case, but for now of course I'd rather not be a target.

I've never understood why this argument is always used by PC advocates. It's like saying "Sure more people die in war than in peace because war is incredibly dangerous"...then choosing war because you've explained why it's true.

 

[binary visions]

Sure, most viruses, spyware, etc are targeted towards Windows, that's the reason they're more commonly infected, but...all the more reason to buy a Mac no?

Erm, what do you think is going to happen when you convince everyone in the world to switch to Mac?

If one of the reasons for a Mac being better is that its small market share means fewer viruses, it seems like a bizarre arguement. "Buy a Mac. It's better because nobody buys Macs."

Does that not seem odd to anyone else?

Yes, you can say I'm speaking from my subjective experiences...but what else is there? I spent my life on PCs, and switched to Mac last year, so if anything, my allegiances should lie with PC, but Mac is just that much better.

Nothing, but this started out as an issue of cost. The cost is objective - Macs are more expensive than PCs. Then you started talking about "value", and I was emphasizing that your perception of value was not necessarily applicable all around.

Now that this has gone straight into a Mac vs. PC debate, subjectivity and personal experience is all we've got to argue with, so please proceed

 

[Tenchiro]

Right...so wouldn't it make more sense to buy a machine that isn't targeted? Maybe 10 years from now that won't be the case, but for now of course I'd rather not be a target.

I've never understood why this argument is always used by PC advocates. It's like saying "Sure more people die in war than in peace because war is incredibly dangerous"...then choosing war because you've explained why it's true.

We don't choose PC's because they are more dangerous. We choose them because we can do things like go to the store and buy software. Personally I build all my own PC's and there is no way to do that with a Mac. Not only that but PC's do everything I need and do it well, and for a fraction of the price.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Uh, not exactly. Maybe: "One reason to buy a Mac is because they're less subjected to viral attacks."

Ok, so let's get back on track. I'm not going to argue which machine has a higher sticker price, it's pretty safe to say that for a base machine you're going to pay a little more for a Mac. Few would dispute that. It's tricky saying "Mac A" has the same specs as "PC A" because the hardware is simply different, and I'm not here to debate which hardware is "better".

My point is simply this: No PC I've ever worked on has allowed me to work as efficiently as I can on my Mac. I'm a constant, the work is a constant, the software is a constant, the only variable is the machine (hardware/OS). To me, that increase in efficiency is worth far more than the $x increase in sticker price. I will also say, that through interactions with others who have made the same transition, that this is a common experience among converts.

 

[Ridemonkey]

We don't choose PC's because they are more dangerous. We choose them because we can do things like go to the store and buy software. Personally I build all my own PC's and there is no way to do that with a Mac. Not only that but PC's do everything I need and do it well, and for a fraction of the price.

And Mac software is delivered by elves on unicorns?

I don't question that you can do it well on a PC...I did my job well on a PC...now I do it better, and at most we're talking about a 25-30% price difference...depending where you shop.

 

[Tenchiro]

And Mac software is delivered by elves on unicorns?

I just like being able to go to the store and buy my software and not wait (and pay for) for shipping. Don't even get me started on gaming.

 

[syadasti]

Don't think the mac is less vulnerable simple cause of less virus' either, you just need one exploit...

http://secunia.com/product/96/

If you didn't patch OSX, you could have up to KNOWN 63 holes in it. If you have it all patched up, there are still 2 unpatched holes in it and definately are other unreported ones too.

PCs are the MUCH bigger target, so there are about twice as many known security faults:

http://secunia.com/product/22/

Newer PCs (ie Athlon 64 and Intel P4/D cores with 64-bit extensions) have hardware based buffer overflow protection which covers a great deal of these exploits. Apple won't have this feature until July at the earliest with the Intel Conroe Core.

Apple's OS had best ease of use until OSX came out - somethings don't "just work" as claimed. What I've personally had to do to make things right on systems I supported:

Have to use CUPS and terminal to get print sharing to work right with gimp (Apple included) beta freeware non-native drivers (lower quality print experience - not all features are supported), turn off the finder via scripts to delete hidden files the "simple" uninstall by dragging to the trash didn't delete (or that stuffit expanded to hidden files - in windows you can unhide files with a simple menu option), or edit lots of firewall settings to get iChat to work when AIM/MSN/Yahoo all work without any hassle on the same consumer firewall. Thats not user friendly for the average user. I like the OS, but its not a magic bullet...

 

[syadasti]

Reality of other flaws that keep the Apple products from "just works experience":

Applications that break from service pack to service pack (ie Panther to Tiger).

Apple is infamous for first/second/third generation flaws in their products (I know PCs aren't immune either) - exploding powerbooks, uniformity on Cinema displays, bad battery system in ibook, cube lexan flaws, soft iPod material scratching too easily, ipod battery flaws, easy paint chipping off the "titanium" PowerBooks, bad wireless reception, iBook hinge problems, RAM slot failures (and aftermarket RAM going bad after software updates), and iBook keyboard issues and magnetic latch problems. In 12/03 MacWorld reported that 3 of their 6 first-gen PowerBooks had to be returned - 50% were defective - just works, eh?

http://www.macworld.com/2003/12/reviews/15inchpowerbookg4s/

Because of this almost all keen Mac users are sure to buy Applecare too cause something typically goes wrong and the proprietary parts cost a lot more.

Think different, think again. Its just another brand of PC with plus and minuses like any other.

 

[Ridemonkey]

I just like being able to go to the store and buy my software and not wait (and pay for) for shipping. Don't even get me started on gaming.

I buy software from the store all the time...or I pay for the download, which is far more convenient anyway.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Reality of other flaws that keep the Apple products from "just works experience":

Applications that break from service pack to service pack (ie Panther to Tiger).

Apple is infamous for first/second/third generation flaws in their products (I know PCs aren't immune either) - exploding powerbooks, uniformity on Cinema displays, bad battery system in ibook, cube lexan flaws, soft iPod material scratching too easily, ipod battery flaws, easy paint chipping off the "titanium" PowerBooks, bad wireless reception, iBook hinge problems, RAM slot failures (and aftermarket RAM going bad after software updates), and iBook keyboard issues and magnetic latch problems. In 12/03 MacWorld reported that 3 of their 6 first-gen PowerBooks had to be returned - 50% were defective - just works, eh?

http://www.macworld.com/2003/12/reviews/15inchpowerbookg4s/

Because of this almost all keen Mac users are sure to buy Applecare too cause something typically goes wrong and the proprietary parts cost a lot more.

Think different, think again. Its just another brand of PC with plus and minuses like any other.

Whatever. No one said they're perfect, of course there are flaws, but you're missing the point. There's no perfect machine, but I'll take the flaws on the Mac over the flaws on a PC in a heartbeat.

 

[syadasti]

Whatever. No one said they're perfect, of course there are flaws, but you're missing the point. There's no perfect machine, but I'll take the flaws on the Mac over the flaws on a PC in a heartbeat.

I haven't seen a PCs with flaws/problems as bad as those since the Win9X based WinMe. Never had the pleasure of owning WinMe personally

A 50% failure rate would spell death for a marketplace as competitive as PC notebooks - its a commodity market.

Its always great to pay a premium for the pleasure of these flaws too. Never seen such cognitive dissonance!

 

[Ridemonkey]

I haven't seen a PCs with flaws/problems as bad as those since the Win9X based WinMe. Never had the pleasure of owning WinMe personally

A 50% failure rate would spell death for a marketplace as competitive as PC notebooks - its a commodity market.

Its always great to pay a premium for the pleasure of these flaws too. Never seen such cognitive dissonance!

...huh?

 

[syadasti]

Macs, you know the topic of this thread...

 

[Toshi]

Funny, Toshi, I see this:

http://gateway.com/products/GConfig/proddetails.asp?system_id=nx560xl&seg=hm

...for $1299, which competes with the $2000 Apple model.

I see this:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?CS=19&kc=11111&oc=ie1705s1

...for $2000 that beats out the $2499 Apple model.

If you want to nitpick about specs one way or the other that's your business, but don't deny that Apple laptops are more expensive.

dell:
- 8.2 lbs.
- did i mention that it's 8.2 lbs?
- no remote control vs. remote control
- 80 vs. 100 gb hdd
- combo drive vs. dvd burner
- no bluetooth
- (no firewire)
- (no pci express)
- (no built in isight video camera)
- (no magsafe power cord)

configure the dell with non-parenthetical items to bring it in line, now it's $2187. is apple overcharging for the $2500 top end macbook (1" thick, 5.6 lbs, snazzy new-technology lithium-polymer battery)? i don't think so. 0/1 so far.

the gateway is closer on size (but not quite the same, at 1.3" and 6.3 lbs) but not on specs:

- 60 vs. 80 gb hdd
- 1280x800 vs. 1440x900
- Radeon® X1400 SE vs. Radeon X1600 with dual link DVI
- no bluetooth
- no pci express
- no remote
- no magsafe power cord
- no built in isight

granted, $1300 is pretty dang cheap and the size is in the ballpark, unlike that beast of a dell you threw out there, so i'll grant you 1/2.

for the casual reader i'd just like to point out that you didn't come up with comparable machines in either case, and i for one would hesitate before buying a gateway. perhaps this is "nitpicking on specs" but the point stands that apple is in the same ballpark as other companies with regard to pricing.

 

[Toshi]

oh, and Tenchiro, your experiences at apple in the early 90s, what with powerbook 540s and system 7.6, are NOT RELEVANT ANY MORE. you can stop bringing them up.

:nuts:

 

[syadasti]

Toshi, here you go, $500 premium and you get less

Macbook Pro
Al Chassis
Intel 1.83 GHz Core Duo (slower)
AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth (no free Bluetooth headset)
2GB 667 DDR2 - 2x1GB SO-DIMMs
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW) (no Dual Layer)
100GB Serial ATA HDD (20GB less capacity)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
.3MP iSight Camera
15.4-inch 1440 x 900 (inferior spec)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 - 256MB GDDR3
60 watt hour battery (shorter battery life)
HDD shock protection
$2,899.00
(Advantages - magsafe, built in keyboard lighting, 1 lbs lighter, runs OSX or Windows
Disadvantages - Inferior screen, weaker warranty (only 90 day phone), Slower CPU, does not include DL drive, does not have built in 5-in-1 memorycard reader, does not have modem built-in, no PC Card slot (your old investments are trash), shorter battery life, weaker Al instead of carbon fiber, no free bluetooth headset, and lower quality built-in camera)

Acer TravelMate 8204WLMi (PCMag's Editor Choice Dual Core Laptop, Jan 2006)
2006 IF design award winner
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060107/20060107005001.html?.v=1
Carbon Fiber Chassis
Intel Core Duo 2 GHz
2GB DDR2 667 SDRAM
120GB SATA Hard Drive
Modular Super-Multi DVDRWDL Drive
5-In-1 Card Reader
15.4" WSXGA+ (1680 x 1050)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB
Built-in 1.3 MP digicam/webcam
802.11a/b/g WLAN
Bluetooth
Bluetooth Headset (for VoIP, etc...)
Gigabit LAN
V.92 Modem
87 Whr Battery
PC card AND Expresscard slot
HDD Shock Protection
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
1 year international valid warranty (important for travelers)

Chumbo .com for 2,389.99 (before release, price prices drop signficantly after release, while macs adhere to retail during lifecycle)

Due the commodity nature PCs will get even cheaper after they are available...

Not to mention, on PC service packs are free, on the Mac if you bought OSX when it first came out, you spend about $500 or so?

Mac OS X v10.0 "Cheetah"
Mac OS X v10.1 "Puma"
Mac OS X v10.2 "Jaguar"
Mac OS X v10.3 "Panther"
Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" (current release)
Mac OS X v10.5 "Leopard"

WinXP - major revision/service packs free. There was:

WinXP
WinXP SP1
WinXP SP1a
WinXP SP2
and soon WinXP SP3
Each added significant updates - especially SP2

 

[Toshi]

ok, that's a comparable (and cool) machine. you do know that the price difference shrinks substantially if you don't upgrade the ram on the apple machine, so the true price difference is more like $200-250. am i and other consumers willing to pay that? yes.

 

[syadasti]

ok, that's a comparable (and cool) machine. you do know that the price difference shrinks substantially if you don't upgrade the ram on the apple machine, so the true price difference is more like $200-250. am i and other consumers willing to pay that? yes.

What do you mean 2GB Macbook Pro vs. 2GB Acer - its a fair comparison. Acer is going to have a lower spec version for $1999 retail, so that will be at least $500 still.

Not to mention as I said PC prices drop after the product is available.

The 8104 retailed for 2500 on release, it now sells for $1540. You don't see much more than a few hundred off after Macs become obsolete with a new model even. Mac buyers are suckers I guess

 

[jimmydean]

Having just ordered my G4 17", I look forward to seeing the MacBook after a few revs. There was a test machine in my lab running OSX for x86 machines 6 months ago and it seemed to run well enough.

I'm not a huge fan of first gen hardware, so I will wait a few revs. Plus, my G4 will do just fine.

As a note:
Anyone who removes OSX to install either XP or Vista is a jackass. You woun't understand unless you've run it for a week. You'll never look at Windows the same again...

 

[syadasti]

As a note:
Anyone who removes OSX to install either XP or Vista is a jackass. You woun't understand unless you've run it for a week. You'll never look at Windows the same again...

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the new intel fancy virtualization tech which promised near native performance - run windows in a sandbox in OSX.

Guess we'll probably have to wait a while for that though

Dual booting is a PITA, dual machines for me with VNC seems like the most fun. I don't like using KVM or USB switch with dual input monitors - I want to use both at the same time :mumble:

 

[Ridemonkey]

Why would you want to run Windows anyway? Speaking strictly from a user experience standpoint?

 

[syadasti]

Why would you want to run Windows anyway? Speaking strictly from a user experience standpoint?

Pay attention - see page 2 of this thread, BV already covered this

Besides that you need to be able to communciate with the rest of the world, about 90% runs Windows and some applications are pretty platform specific. 3-6% of the world runs Mac OS (not OSX, but all Mac OS) and that number hasn't changed much on average since sometime in the 90s. If MacOS was significantly better, business would see that those that switched had an advantage and eventually converted by now - it never happened. In the real world the advantages don't outweight the disadvantages.

On the otherhand Solaris has always been important in the corporate world and linux has caught on big in back office applications and made Microsoft very nervous. These OS offer real tangible benefits that have caused notable trends...

 

[binary visions]

for the casual reader i'd just like to point out that you didn't come up with comparable machines in either case, and i for one would hesitate before buying a gateway. perhaps this is "nitpicking on specs" but the point stands that apple is in the same ballpark as other companies with regard to pricing.

Sorry, Toshi, I didn't pick up on how big the Dell was - but besides that, your argument on specs doesn't hold a lot of water. The (specs) aren't really deal breakers - the lack of PCIe doesn't detract from that killer video card, if sales of webcams are any indication, the lack of a video camera is hitting a pretty limited audience (and there are plenty of aftermarket alternatives), and Firewire is really the only thing there that could impact people - but Firewire still hasn't caught on as much as people had hoped. Other specs can be upgraded as necessary.

Then, you have to look at street pricing. Apple does, what, 10% education discounts? Dell has rotating coupon codes, available on any website or you can subscribe to their coupon mailings (right from Dell), to give you $500 off $1500 or $750 off either $2000 or $2100 (depending on the week). That slashes the price of the notebook dramatically and these are not super secret hidden codes - they're widely available to anyone who wants to use them.

They're just more expensive. Period. Which is not the indication you gave. Is some equipment included in the Mac over the Dell? Sure. Would I pay $500+ for it? No way. Given the way consumers want cheap over quality, I don't think most people will.

 

[binary visions]

By the way, Toshi, I'm not arguing that you don't get more with the Mac. Apple has always offered a very well-thought-out package with a lot of nice little touches. Those touches, though, are hitting a limited audience.

With the market offering up $1200 dual core notebooks, to compete or increase market share, you'd better bring to the table something other than a few unique touches and a nice package for $800 more. You'd better have a dirt cheap laptop for the masses. You'd better have a middle-of-the-line laptop for the more hardcore consumers. After those requirements are satisfied, going after the power users with your PCIe video card and other top notch specs makes sense.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Pay attention - see page 2 of this thread, BV already covered this

Did you read a different page two than I did?

Besides that you need to be able to communciate with the rest of the world, about 90% runs Windows and some applications are pretty platform specific.

That hasn't been an issue for 5 years. All mainstream software is also available in a Mac version. Much of the PC software that isn't available on Mac is because Mac has a better alternative. Seriously, get with the times. The days of Mac incompatibility are long gone.

 

[syadasti]

That hasn't been an issue for 5 years. All mainstream software is also available in a Mac version. Much of the PC software that isn't available on Mac is because Mac has a better alternative. Seriously, get with the times. The days of Mac incompatibility are long gone.

Seriously get with the times, there are lots of VERY expensive specialized financial, engineering, and custom software applications you'll never see on the mac. The programs that make businesses work

 

[Ridemonkey]

By the way, Toshi, I'm not arguing that you don't get more with the Mac. Apple has always offered a very well-thought-out package with a lot of nice little touches. Those touches, though, are hitting a limited audience.

With the market offering up $1200 dual core notebooks, to compete or increase market share, you'd better bring to the table something other than a few unique touches and a nice package for $800 more. You'd better have a dirt cheap laptop for the masses. You'd better have a middle-of-the-line laptop for the more hardcore consumers. After those requirements are satisfied, going after the power users with your PCIe video card and other top notch specs makes sense.

Let's face it, the majority of the US market has never been overly concerned with quality. That's why McDonald's, Walmart and Compaq do so well. It's all about getting the next best thing for less money.

 

[Ridemonkey]

VERY expensive specialized financial, and engineering software applications

Yeah...exactly the kind of stuff used by a VERY small portion of the market. As for the custom software, that's just as easily developed for Mac...if not more easily. It's a lousy argument, sorry.

For Joe Officeguy who only needs Microsoft Office and a web browser day to day (90% of the business world) there's no issue at all.

 

[syadasti]

Yeah...the kind of stuff used by a VERY small portion of the market. As for the custom software, that's just as easily developed for Mac...if not more easily.

Small portion of the market...key to the vital functions of industry.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Right....so let them keep using PCs, it's no reason for the rest of the market to stay tied to them.

 

[syadasti]

For Joe Officeguy who only needs Microsoft Office and a web browser day to day (90% of the business world) there's no issue at all.

Joe Officeguy doesn't not need a PC. Thin-client is getting pretty popular again - its much easier to manage a few servers compared to an armanda or PCs or Macs....

 

[Ridemonkey]

Right. 10 years from now the concept of "software" will be pretty much dead to the average business user. Web/Intranet-based applications are the wave of the future for sure. Then it just comes down to a browser and an email client.

So...I think if it isn't already, software restrictions are a moot point for most.

 

[syadasti]

Let's face it, the majority of the US market has never been overly concerned with quality. That's why McDonald's, Walmart and Compaq do so well. It's all about getting the next best thing for less money.

Nice theory, only its WRONG - Apple is more popular in its home country:

Apple Computer's market share of the U.S. computer market climbed to 4.3% in the September quarter, according to market research firm IDC. That's an increase from 3.3% from the year-ago quarter. Apple was the number five vendor in the U.S. market, behind Dell, HP, Gateway, and Lenova (formerly IBM's PC division), and the company showed a steeper climb in U.S. unit sales, 44.6%, than any other company in IDC's report.

IDC broke Apple's U.S. unit sales at 737,000 units. By comparison, number one vendor Dell shipped some 5.638 million PCs in the US. Dell had 33.2% of the market, well ahead of perennial number two HP, which had 20.3% of the market.

...

Worldwide, Apple saw a 48% increase in unit sales, but didn't crack the top five PC vendors (Dell, HP, Lenova, Acer, Siemens). IDC didn't specify Apple's worldwide market share, but extrapolating from Apple's own total Mac unit sales of 1.236 million Macs, a record quarter for the company, the company had some 2.3% global market share.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Who said anything about the world market? I'm talking about the US (North American) market, and why machines from companies like HP/Compaq (if you defend them so help me God...) can outsell Apple. Despite the fact that your average Compaq is literally crippled with Compaq System Tray and Startup Item junk right out of the box, more American's buy them because they're dirt cheap.

That's always going to be the way, and that's why Apple, and other quality-oriented brands will never have the largest market share. Price is more important than quality to most North Americans. Period.

 

[syadasti]

Right. 10 years from now the concept of "software" will be pretty much dead to the average business user. Web/Intranet-based applications are the wave of the future for sure. Then it just comes down to a browser and an email client.

So...I think if it isn't already, software restrictions are a moot point for most.

You don't know Jack

All PCs are huge compared to JackPC:

http://www.chippc.com/products/jackpc/

 

[jimmydean]

But what you seem to forget is that OSX is a big hit with Linux users because you have a stable platform and still use all the cool Linux tools you want.

Look at some of the countries (government computers for government business) that have switched to Linux:
Germany
China
India
Brazil

That is just in the last 2 years. There are a lot more on the way. Why? Because for "Joe office user" Linux is fine and for a system or network administrator, it's a dream come true for security and reliability. If they try and like Linux, then switching to OSX is a dream come true.

There is a good reason all the people in my last 2 companies ran Mac, and with the MacBook, you will see Intel drop the Thinkpad and go Apple in the next year, all running OSX.