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Interbike - Behind The Scenes

Ridemonkey.com

News & Reviews
Jun 26, 2009
2,168
1
An inside and disgruntled look at the unionized set up process of the Interbike Trade Show in Las Vegas, Nevada.

---

Words by Richard Beytagh (www.morewoodbikes.com)

The Biking industry is typically not governed by Unions so it is always a shock when we vendors, mostly self employed entrepreneurs, come face to face with the unions in action. I don't think there was a single exhibitor that wasn't incredibly frustrated or ready to hit one of the GES officials (Interbike Show Organizers) by the end of the show...Soviet style bureaucracy is supposed to be a thing of the past. What ticked me off mostly is the simple act of carrying a chair and table to our booth was not allowed and required a 45 minute wait in a queue to fill in paperwork and then a further 20 minutes wait for a loader to take our items to the booth. Cost $32 for something that should have cost nothing and could have been done in five minutes.

It’s okay if you have a huge budget and have GES manage all your booth logistics, but many of the smaller exhibitors (like us) are on tight budgets and can’t afford the inflated prices GES charge to do it. Most of us arrive with a truck and a trailer and can hand carry all the items we need for our booths in a few loads. GES (or the Union) does not allow this! There are absolutely no facilities to allow you stop for a few minutes unload and carry-in without a militant GES official obstructing this process. It then becomes a stealth operation, circling the block, stopping the traffic, unloading one item at a time and smuggling them into your booth. What a way to run an Expo! Once you have managed to unload, the official Sands Expo Center trailer park is next door, but there is no easy walkway back to the Sands. It’s a 20 minute walk back to the Expo Center and in the Vegas heat, typically heavily loaded, it soon wears you out. When the expo is over it’s the same in reverse except now we don’t have to be nice to the GES folks!

Anywhere else they call it gouging...GES charges outrageous prices for absolutely everything. $120 for a 500watt electric point, $32 to carry in a 30lbs load, $32 to get the electricity reconnected when we tried to use a vacuum to clean our booth, $40 for 3 sandwiches, $265 to rent a carpet for 3 days....the list goes on. If I had a choice I would never exhibit at Interbike again! Vegas sucks as a venue; it’s expensive and once you’ve been there a few times the glitter quickly wears off.

I know this subject has been muted before, but let’s get Interbike out of Vegas to somewhere where we are not just another “oh hum” expo. Where the organizers are actually friendly and want to help.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,020
Sleazattle
Don't take it to Chicago then. GES and unions rule the roost there too. I've dealt with all this crap myself at Industrial Manufacturing trade shows. Working for a big company with a big booth you can get away with doing a lot more work on your own because they know they are already getting a ton of money from you. They screw the little guys as much as possible because if they don't they wont get any money from them. It is a ridiculous system in a time when the internet makes a lot of what a trade show is supposed to accomplish redundant. Consider the cost and benefits of a trade show versus having a great website and a few good press releases.
 

zebrahum

Monkey
Jun 22, 2005
401
0
SL,UT
When it comes to trade shows I'm a complete outsider, so excuse any ignorance I may have, but may I suggest Utah as an alternative location? The Outdoor Retailer show takes place in Salt Lake City, and I have heard the city is currently bending over backward to attract conferences and trade shows.

Unions are not allowed in Utah and the availability of riding very close to downtown is huge. Bike demos can be done in nearby Park City, lift served at Deer Valley.

It's just a thought, again, I don't have any experience as a vendor at OR, so there may be the same problems.
 

3D.

Monkey
Feb 23, 2006
899
0
Chinafornia USA
Vegas is a joke, right along side of some of these unnecessary fabricated union jobs that go so well with convention centers.

Never did understand why Vegas? I realize the outdoor portion works well at bootleg, but it could be put on in many other areas. The town is crap and speaks nothing of mountain biking to me.

I say f the city locations all together. With all of these new whistler style villages that have popped up over the last ten years, why not take the trade show to the ski resorts. They have plenty of indoor conference/convention halls to fill (complete without the union guys), the room accommodations are all completely empty and top notch, and the riding of the resorts and their lifts makes the perfect outdoor demo arena, without a 50 min car ride loaded with all gear/tools/parts/bikes… what a joke… simply roll the goods out of the village and on to the lifts and back again.

Also, it would be nice to dose the local economies with some end of the summer tourism cheer. Some resorts are not making much off of biking and it would be a great way to stoke their season up while getting people up to the mountain. How does giving Vegas our money contribute to the stability of the mountain biking industry?

edit: Getting your gamble/strip club on, might be a bit of a problem.:brow:
 

Surfwax

Chimp
Aug 23, 2002
17
0
Every person I know in the industry who speaks of interbike speaks ill of it. I don't understand why people put up with all the non-sense. The industry needs to rally together and set the show up elsewhere.
 

VMARTINEZ

Monkey
May 23, 2005
303
18
When it comes to trade shows I'm a complete outsider, so excuse any ignorance I may have, but may I suggest Utah as an alternative location? The Outdoor Retailer show takes place in Salt Lake City, and I have heard the city is currently bending over backward to attract conferences and trade shows.

Unions are not allowed in Utah and the availability of riding very close to downtown is huge. Bike demos can be done in nearby Park City, lift served at Deer Valley.

It's just a thought, again, I don't have any experience as a vendor at OR, so there may be the same problems.
Thats not ture about Unions not allowed to work here in Utah. They just dont have the strong hold on the state. We do have unions but they are not huge here.
 

BeerMe

Monkey
Apr 18, 2008
139
0
FOCO NOCO
You guys do realize you're arguing over a point that is no less than a staple of the international trade show industry, right?
No where in the U.S. can you hold an international trade show, especially one the size of interbike, and not have to deal directly with unions in every aspect of the show.
Interbike (or any international trade show) would never even be held if they couldn't find a union organization to do the dirty work.
Interbike, the exhibition hall, and probably the city of Las Vegas are never going to let you hold them accountable because you wanted to carry that little dinky chair over to the other side of the room by yourself and just happen to trip on some carpet and break yourself.
Try getting a booth at any international trade show of any industry in the world and tell me that you didn't have to get a union member to wipe your arse.
Trust me, it doesn't matter where or what. Suck it up.
 

north20

Chimp
Nov 5, 2007
85
0
East Cascades - PNW
You guys do realize you're arguing over a point that is no less than a staple of the international trade show industry, right?
No where in the U.S. can you hold an international trade show, especially one the size of interbike, and not have to deal directly with unions in every aspect of the show.
Interbike (or any international trade show) would never even be held if they couldn't find a union organization to do the dirty work.
Interbike, the exhibition hall, and probably the city of Las Vegas are never going to let you hold them accountable because you wanted to carry that little dinky chair over to the other side of the room by yourself and just happen to trip on some carpet and break yourself.
Try getting a booth at any international trade show of any industry in the world and tell me that you didn't have to get a union member to wipe your arse.
Trust me, it doesn't matter where or what. Suck it up.

Considering Mr. Sunshine's "advice" to suck it up, I'd probably give Westy's post a good read. In light of today's economic and marketing realities it makes more sense than putting yourself through the Interbike ringer.
 

maddog17

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2008
2,815
105
Methuen, Mass. U.S.A.
a company i use to work for held a consumer sales weekend at the World Trade Ctr in Boston, the Hunt's photo show. dealing with those guys (union) could get hairy at times. i remember during setup that a booth needed to get carpeted and i find the shop guy to get it done. i go over to check and there's the carpet, one guy and nothing done. so i asked him what's going on and he says to me "well i'm only the pusher and i'm waiting for the puller" i gave him my best are you f'ing kidding me look and walked away. they got pissed at us for using our own pallet jacks inside of our trailers that were at the docks!! i've read and heard plenty of people say that having IB in vegas is getting old but in one way or another you'll have to deal with union people. but maybe in smaller cities they may not be as bad to deal with.
 

zebrahum

Monkey
Jun 22, 2005
401
0
SL,UT
Thats not ture about Unions not allowed to work here in Utah. They just dont have the strong hold on the state. We do have unions but they are not huge here.
Sorry, you are correct. Utah is a "right to work" state and that means that Employees in a unionized workplace cannot be forced to pay "agency fees" to the union if they refuse to be union members. Basically means that union labor is not forced upon employers or employees in Utah, and are not common as they are in other states.

So, to those who continue to go on about the inevitability of union labor, well open your eyes to the possibility of other venues, Nevada and Illinois aren't the only place you can have international traffic gather.
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
You guys do realize you're arguing over a point that is no less than a staple of the international trade show industry, right?
No where in the U.S. can you hold an international trade show, especially one the size of interbike, and not have to deal directly with unions in every aspect of the show.
Interbike (or any international trade show) would never even be held if they couldn't find a union organization to do the dirty work.
Interbike, the exhibition hall, and probably the city of Las Vegas are never going to let you hold them accountable because you wanted to carry that little dinky chair over to the other side of the room by yourself and just happen to trip on some carpet and break yourself.
Try getting a booth at any international trade show of any industry in the world and tell me that you didn't have to get a union member to wipe your arse.
Trust me, it doesn't matter where or what. Suck it up.
The above is true only if you ignore some facts.

1) It's not an "international" show -- EuroBike and other shows handle the display, business-doing, etc for other nations. Interbike is a NORTH AMERICAN bike show.

2) These "realities" you speak of show an immense naivete on how the State of Nevada operates. It is a mafia state, run by mafia money, which derives from traditional mafia work -- trash removal/disposal, commercial construction, general blue collar union work, and the vices (gambling, booze, prostitution, drugs, porn).

3) Interbike is not necessary for business. Anyone who says it is, well that person has a serious deficiency in imagination.

Interbike serves 2 purposes -- (a) reveal new products, and (b) enable industry people to meet and perhaps do a bit of business.

The part about revealing new products -- pretty well handled by the internet these days.

The part about meeting to do business -- could be done anywhere, and there's absolutely no reason why Las Vegas or anywhere else is a "must" location for it.
 

BeerMe

Monkey
Apr 18, 2008
139
0
FOCO NOCO
The above is true only if you ignore some facts.

1) It's not an "international" show -- EuroBike and other shows handle the display, business-doing, etc for other nations. Interbike is a NORTH AMERICAN bike show.

2) These "realities" you speak of show an immense naivete on how the State of Nevada operates. It is a mafia state, run by mafia money, which derives from traditional mafia work -- trash removal/disposal, commercial construction, general blue collar union work, and the vices (gambling, booze, prostitution, drugs, porn).

3) Interbike is not necessary for business. Anyone who says it is, well that person has a serious deficiency in imagination.

Interbike serves 2 purposes -- (a) reveal new products, and (b) enable industry people to meet and perhaps do a bit of business.

The part about revealing new products -- pretty well handled by the internet these days.

The part about meeting to do business -- could be done anywhere, and there's absolutely no reason why Las Vegas or anywhere else is a "must" location for it.
Hahahaha, you're not very smart. Where do you think the name interbike comes from? Hey I know! Maybe its short for interns that ride bikes! Ya dood, totally!
Interbike, as in international bike show. It is an international show genius. For the entire world. Your mind must = blown.
The rest of your revelations have nothing to do with anything except for Casino and Joe Pesci.
I stand by my previous statment. Unions are a staple of internsthatridebikes shows, so suck it up and learn to deal with them.
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
Hahahaha, you're not very smart. Where do you think the name interbike comes from? Hey I know! Maybe its short for interns that ride bikes! Ya dood, totally!
Interbike, as in international bike show. It is an international show genius. For the entire world. Your mind must = blown.
The rest of your revelations have nothing to do with anything except for Casino and Joe Pesci.
I stand by my previous statment. Unions are a staple of internsthatridebikes shows, so suck it up and learn to deal with them.
The name controls the substance?

And you chide me for lacking "smarts"?

Wow.

If InterBike is THE international bike show, why is there a EuroBike?

Dude, you are a child. If you had a logical, factual response, you should have offered it.

You have no response to the point of the Nevada government and economy being run by the Mafia. Why is that, SuperSmartGuy? Why do you have to ignore this reality?

You say that the name "InterBike" PROVES it's an international show. International from whose perspective? If it were the true international show there would be no reason for the EuroBike show and the UK's own CycleShow. So what gives, SuperSmartGuy?

In your world, unions are everywhere and we just have to accept that. Gee, what world do you live in? SuperSmartGuy's 13-year-old boyville? Can others play in your little treefort? Or is it just for other SuperSmartGuys who don't know anything but pretend they're the World's Great Genius Guys?
 
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BeerMe

Monkey
Apr 18, 2008
139
0
FOCO NOCO
Nobody gives a damn about Nevada's economy or what a particular tradeshow does for it. You brought that up.
This is about how unionized international trade shows are. Which is what INTERbike is. The name of the show does not dictate its broad coverage of a world wide industry. The shows broad coverage of a world wide industry dictates its name, most of the time. (At least in this case)

The only reason I chimed in on this thread is because I spend 40 hours of many weeks out of the year sending the company I work for to international trade shows, EVERY ONE OF WHICH IS HANDLED BY A UNION.

Allow me to enlighten you to the wonderful world of wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbike
And I quote,
"The Interbike International Bicycle Expo is the largest bicycle industry trade show in North America and is held annually in Las Vegas, Nevada. Exhibitors consist of companies interested in selling their products and services to bicycle retailers, wholesale distributors and manufacturers. Because of the many new cycling products and technologies that are launched each year to much fanfare at Interbike, the show is also an important media event for the bicycle industry."

And no, you aren't allowed anywhere near my tree fort, numbnuts. You'll inevitably fall out and try to sue me to help the mafia run Nevada's underbelly economy.
 

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
Which still fails to explain why other INTERNATIONAL BIKE SHOWS exist each calendar year.

I love childish pseudo-adults who pretend they hold all the world's wisdom in a superficial outlook on a subject they don't understand.

Actually I don't want into your treefort, as I hear it's a boys club with ghey porn circlejerks being the admission ritual. Have fun with that one, Wankboy!
 

BeerMe

Monkey
Apr 18, 2008
139
0
FOCO NOCO
slowitdown is definitely a good screen name for you considering how slow your thought process is.
Seriously broseff, you're the dumbest person on the entire internet today.

Send me a pm as soon as you exhibit at an international show and don't deal with a union in every possible aspect of your booth setup.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
Send me a pm as soon as you exhibit at an international show and don't deal with a union in every possible aspect of your booth setup.
for the past 7 years we have been off-site during the CES show and still have to pay stupid amounts for union and still cant even plug our own equipment in unless some union putts does it.
next year we are being forced by the CEA who runs CES to be on site. im sure this will jack up our cost for showing during CES time.


my point? unions stink
 

NOJA22

Chimp
Jun 3, 2009
4
0
Unions do not stink. They are the only way for a working man to get a fare wage and a job with benefits and a retirement set up. Try doing that working construction non-union. Most of the trades that are union actually have to work on a regular basis. Alot of us out in the bitter cold and peak of summer. Unfortunately in order to keep the large picture of jobs there are some spots where the individual job is completely ridiculous. I don't agree with it, but when you give up that stupid job, a bunch more follow behind it and it puts more skilled men out of work. Nobody in the unions are clearing 100k a year now a days, yet the people that are sitting behind desks, comfy cozy with 6 figure bonuses have no problem bitching about it. And telling every one how unions are hurting things. Men don't get paper cuts on my jobs, they get maimed or dead, no sick days, no vacation. You don't work, you don't get paid. You **** in a porta john with a bunch of day woker mexicans who tryand cut you out for 6 dollars an hour, and have no care in the work they do. Unions are for men with families.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Why not pick some struggling midwest town with good trails? There's got to be someplace hard up for cash that could use the income from an uber bike show....ie not vegas.

Union or not, it would cost less just about anywhere besides vegas.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,020
Sleazattle
Vegas is a joke, right along side of some of these unnecessary fabricated union jobs that go so well with convention centers.

Never did understand why Vegas? I realize the outdoor portion works well at bootleg, but it could be put on in many other areas. The town is crap and speaks nothing of mountain biking to me.

I say f the city locations all together. With all of these new whistler style villages that have popped up over the last ten years, why not take the trade show to the ski resorts. They have plenty of indoor conference/convention halls to fill (complete without the union guys), the room accommodations are all completely empty and top notch, and the riding of the resorts and their lifts makes the perfect outdoor demo arena, without a 50 min car ride loaded with all gear/tools/parts/bikes… what a joke… simply roll the goods out of the village and on to the lifts and back again.

Also, it would be nice to dose the local economies with some end of the summer tourism cheer. Some resorts are not making much off of biking and it would be a great way to stoke their season up while getting people up to the mountain. How does giving Vegas our money contribute to the stability of the mountain biking industry?

edit: Getting your gamble/strip club on, might be a bit of a problem.:brow:
Yep Union men are all about quality. I got shocked with 480 volts at a trade show 3 years ago when I touched an electrical cabinet. The Union electrician had reversed a hot line and the ground line when hooking it up. Thick paint on the cabinet prevented it from shorting out immediately. I was just lucky enough to brush up against the chromed hinge. If I hadn't been standing on several layers of Tyvek and carpet I surely would have been killed. I was told the mistake happened because the electrician was colorblind and couldn't tell the difference between a red and green wire.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
I was told the mistake happened because the electrician was colorblind and couldn't tell the difference between a red and green wire.
nice. you almost die because the guy was colorblind. its not like the red, black and green wires actually mean anything.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,020
Sleazattle
nice. you almost die because the guy was colorblind. its not like the red, black and green wires actually mean anything.
It's not like it is a fundamental requirement to be an electrician either.

I've worked with all kinds of Unions. My favorite were the Iron Workers. It is supposed to be one of the most dangerous jobs in the US. From the crew I worked with I'm guessing that has a lot to do with the combination of heavy equipment and large amounts of alcohol, weed and cocaine. Not to mention they were fairly violent. The one person that got hauled off in an ambulance at our work-site got stabbed. Most other accidents were not reported because they would get piss tested.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
It is supposed to be one of the most dangerous jobs in the US.
According to the US BLS, the fishing industry is most dangerous and usually loggers and pilots trade 2nd and 3rd from year to year. Steelworkers are usually in the top 5 but not the top 3. Police and firefighters do not make the top ten, despite their over hyped job danger.
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
0
Danbury, CT
Allow me to enlighten you to the wonderful world of wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbike
And I quote,
"The Interbike International Bicycle Expo is the largest bicycle industry trade show in North America and is held annually in Las Vegas, Nevada. Exhibitors consist of companies interested in selling their products and services to bicycle retailers, wholesale distributors and manufacturers. Because of the many new cycling products and technologies that are launched each year to much fanfare at Interbike, the show is also an important media event for the bicycle industry."
There is a reason that you can't cite Wikipedia in any school or industry papers my friend. That sounds like Interbike copy right there. I will agree that at one point IB was the go-to place for all the cool stuff, but at this point it's been eclipsed by EuroBike. They call it international because there are a fair number of Western Canadians who attend, as well as a decent number of buyers from South America. Not to mention exhibitors from all of the world, but many of these are here to support their North American distributors. There are a fair number of Chinese/Taiwanese companies that exhibit, but honestly I'm not sure why most of them show up. No one comes by to see the junk they're peddling, they just sit there and read the paper for a week.

Interbike used to have an East Coast show, and then West show, and there used to be a MidWest show run by another company. There is a Canadian show in Montreal that handles much of the Eastern Canadian shops, though some still do come to Vegas.

Many "real" vendors will come to meet with North American customers for OEM meetings, show the next model year stuff, etc. But a lot of this has moved to the Taipei OEM show in March/April. Like it or not, Eurobike is the big international show now, it is earlier than IB, and it is also covering many more countries, just based on it's location.

New stuff is generally teased at the Taipei show to OEM companies and selected media, and if it isn't launched to the press at EuroBike, it's usually done during the racing season, directly to the media. And why not launch a new bike directly to the end customer? This is why events like the Sea Otter Classic Expo are so important.

There is a reason companies like Trek and Giant don't exhibit anymore, it's a waste of money, and you don't have the full attention of your dealers. Why not create your own show, focused solely on your company? Trek World is gigantic, and the majority of Trek retailers have at least one person attending.


Why not pick some struggling midwest town with good trails? There's got to be someplace hard up for cash that could use the income from an uber bike show....ie not vegas.

Union or not, it would cost less just about anywhere besides vegas.
This comes up just about every year, and the reality is that there aren't an infinite number of places that can meet some of the important criteria, in no particular order:
1. Number of hotel rooms for the thousands and thousands of bike shop people, buyers, media, plus the industry people who attend.
2. Ease of travel from much of the country.
3. Place for the Outdoor Demo.
4. It's a vacation for a lot of these people, they bring the wife, and spend an extra couple of days doing Vegas.
Like it or not, Vegas is set up to handle large (much, much larger than IB) trade shows. IB used to be in Anaheim, CA, and there has been talk of going back at some point, but when there was a poll of bike shop people (attendees), no one, at least a large number of people anyway, objected to Vegas. I think IB has a contract through 2012 or 2014 or something in Vegas.
Denver has been bandied about, as has Portland, but I don't know the specifics of that.


Sorry this post is kind of convoluted, I'm tired from jetlag and drinking waaay too much every night for over a week. Damn the Taiwanese and their hospitality!
 
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ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
... as has Portland, but I don't know the specifics of that.
That would be f*cking awesome. We have two great freeride parks close to PDX and an awesome cycling community. And, of course, I live in the vicinity :D
 

Mike B.

Turbo Monkey
Oct 5, 2001
1,522
0
State College, PA
James is spot on of course. Also worth noting are the OE only small "shows" in Taichung in mid-December. They've partially taken over what the Taipei show was all about.

There is a reason that we, as a small company, have not displayed at 3 of the last 4 Interbike shows but have done EuroBike instead. Interbike is nice to see your dealers, US distributors, etc but not a whole lot of business gets done, it seems to be more about image. EuroBike on the other hand, actual business is conducted and there has been a direct correlation in sales as a result of attending. Doesn't hurt that the people that run EuroBike and the actual show venue are about a million times easier to work with than GES at the Sands.

The Messe (show venue) in Friedrichshafen added two new halls this year, they were sold out and from what I'm told there are 100+ exhibitors on a waiting list to get in.
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
0
Danbury, CT
James is spot on of course. Also worth noting are the OE only small "shows" in Taichung in mid-December. They've partially taken over what the Taipei show was all about.

There is a reason that we, as a small company, have not displayed at 3 of the last 4 Interbike shows but have done EuroBike instead. Interbike is nice to see your dealers, US distributors, etc but not a whole lot of business gets done, it seems to be more about image. EuroBike on the other hand, actual business is conducted and there has been a direct correlation in sales as a result of attending. Doesn't hurt that the people that run EuroBike and the actual show venue are about a million times easier to work with than GES at the Sands.

The Messe (show venue) in Friedrichshafen added two new halls this year, they were sold out and from what I'm told there are 100+ exhibitors on a waiting list to get in.
Well of course I'm spot-on! :P

Agreed about the earlier shows, but none of them have really reached Taipei or EB or IB sizes. Ride-On is getting bigger, and I like the idea, but I'm just afraid that we're pushing earlier and earlier and what will that mean?

IB it seems is about networking and glad-handing and socializing, and I just don't think it's worth $500,000+ to do that. Call me crazy. IB has gotten complacent, and they'd better watch out for the day that the EuroBike guys decide that hey, they can do a better job in North America. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they plan a show, and after some fancy footwork by IB, it was postponed/canceled or something. It's got to be coming soon though, and then IB will see just how much people hate Vegas/GES. I welcome this day.

Eurobike is where business gets done, that's for sure. EB is a juggernaut.
I was at IB for only 2.5 days this year, no booth, just meetings, and I was still so excited to leave that I decided to cut out early and catch an earlier flight.
 

Mike B.

Turbo Monkey
Oct 5, 2001
1,522
0
State College, PA
IB is starting to grasp I straws I think, witness the horrible IB East. EB people did pitch a show here but I don't remember the details. They were trying to do it on short notice which was probably the biggest issue but I would welcome them here. Not that they could dodge the union stuff any better but I'm sure there would be fresh ideas. I think they'd need to roll it out on a 2 year plan so everyone can adjust accordingly.