[DRB]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6229305/

Among the tensions dividing the locals and the foreigners is religion. People in Fallujah, known as the city of mosques, have chafed at the stern brand of Islam that the newcomers brought with them. The non-Iraqi Arabs berated women who did not cover themselves head-to-toe in black -- very rare in Iraq -- and violently opposed local customs rooted in the town's more mystical religious tradition. One Fallujah man killed a Kuwaiti who said he could not pray at the grave of an ancestor.

 

[MikeD]

Good article.

 

[ohio]

Holy crap, he's back!

****, now I actually have to justify my outrageous claims.

I demand a death match of the well-informed: MikeD vs. DRB
otherwise the rest of us in the political forum will never be free to wildly postulate illogical conclusions from fabricated premises.

 

[MikeD]

I demand a death match of the well-informed: MikeD vs. DRB

His crane style cannot defeat my plunging dragon style...

 

[Skookum]

His crane style cannot defeat my plunging dragon style...

Your plunging dragon style is bordering on the "Szuezan stinky foot massage" technique as far as effectiveness... No he'll lose because he doesn't accept the athletisism of women's professional basketball leagues, it's a fatal weakness....

 

[DRB]

Your plunging dragon style is bordering on the "Szuezan stinky foot massage" technique as far as effectiveness... No he'll lose because he doesn't accept the athletisism of women's professional basketball leagues, it's a fatal weakness....

I said that I wouldn't watch them if they were playing in my backyard NOT that they weren't athletes. Skookum you mistook indifference for contempt (and a subtle yet crappy attempt at humor).

 

[DRB]

Holy crap, he's back!

****, now I actually have to justify my outrageous claims.

I demand a death match of the well-informed: MikeD vs. DRB
otherwise the rest of us in the political forum will never be free to wildly postulate illogical conclusions from fabricated premises.

Daylight is going away as is my riding time so its back to the Political debate Forum.

How was your summer boondoggle?

As for MikeD, I must study him and his plungin' fuzzy bellied salamander style before engaging him.

 

[ohio]

Daylight is going away as is my riding time so its back to the Political debate Forum.

How was your summer boondoggle?

'Twas sweet. Logged on about 14,000 miles driving, 30,000 miles flying, and 600 miles of hitchhiking. Spent a total of probably 2 months sleeping without a roof over my head, caught about 400lbs of salmon and halibut, hung out with sea otters and moose, and some great friends I hadn't seen in years. Finally rode moab, finally rode whistler, toured 1000-year-old castles and churches, ate lots of pork and cabbage, water-skied, crabbed, oystered, clammed, skied the rockies, the wasatch, and the tetons, had 3 hospital visits... one from skiing, one from biking, and one from partying at my little brothers graduation (I'm too old, apparently).

And now I'm settled in San Francisco, working long long hours to finally pay off some big big bills.

Thanks for asking. Sorry you're losing daylight.

 

[Westy]

'Twas sweet. Logged on about 14,000 miles driving, 30,000 miles flying, and 600 miles of hitchhiking. Spent a total of probably 2 months sleeping without a roof over my head, caught about 400lbs of salmon and halibut, hung out with sea otters and moose, and some great friends I hadn't seen in years. Finally rode moab, finally rode whistler, toured 1000-year-old castles and churches, ate lots of pork and cabbage, water-skied, crabbed, oystered, clammed, skied the rockies, the wasatch, and the tetons, had 3 hospital visits... one from skiing, one from biking, and one from partying at my little brothers graduation (I'm too old, apparently).

And now I'm settled in San Francisco, working long long hours to finally pay off some big big bills.

Thanks for asking. Sorry you're losing daylight.

So where are your pics.

 

[Jesus]

Good to hear some Iraqis are figuring things out. If they want us gone, all they have to do is help the US get rid of the insurgents. Then the Iraqi forces can take over, then we'll leave.

Easy enough.

 

[MikeD]

It's not that easy. You forgot to add, "after the US forces leave, the new goverment be attacked as a puppet US/Zionist-controlled state. Their government will be untenable, the country will be unstable, and it grow to be seen as ever-more illegitimate by the average iraqi as it fails to ensure the safety of its citizens, who will feel ever-more sold out by the US. Iraq's democratic government will be an easy and local target for Arab islamists for as long as it manages to survive."

We'll see what happens. Whatever it is, it won't be 'easy,' and I don't think we'll be able to leave for a loooooong time.

MD

 

[jdcamb]

It's not that easy. You forgot to add, "after the US forces leave, the new goverment be attacked as a puppet US/Zionist-controlled state. Their government will be untenable, the country will be unstable, and it grow to be seen as ever-more illegitimate by the average iraqi as it fails to ensure the safety of its citizens, who will feel ever-more sold out by the US. Iraq's democratic government will be an easy and local target for Arab islamists for as long as it manages to survive."

We'll see what happens. Whatever it is, it won't be 'easy,' and I don't think we'll be able to leave for a loooooong time.

MD

The Russians had Afghanistan, now we have Iraq. Democracy only works when it is wanted will be the lesson learned here. Once again we have imposed our will on another nation. So sad.....jdcamb

 

[Silver]

Good to hear some Iraqis are figuring things out. If they want us gone, all they have to do is help the US get rid of the insurgents. Then the Iraqi forces can take over, then we'll leave.

Easy enough.

And if they elect a fundamentalist Muslim in a free election?

 

[MikeD]

The Russians had Afghanistan, now we have Iraq.

And Afghanistan, too!

 

[genpowell71]

This propaganda rant was brought to you by the Friends for Kerry liberals.

 

[MikeD]

This propaganda rant was brought to you by the Friends for Kerry liberals.

Did you mean the article or our commentary? I thought the article, if anything, had slightly pro-Bush leanings. If you think my assessment of how long we'll need to be in Iraq was anti-Bush, and it is, in that I think he's unrealistic about the immediate future of the country, it's even MORE anti-Kerry, because he seems to think the place will be under better control with some ridiculous multinationalism.

I think, in the end, both guys will do the same thing, really. They'll have to keep Americans there, because no other nation can (except, say, China) or will provide troops in quality and quantity to handle the situation, and I certainly don't think Iraqis will be handle the security issues on their own for years to come.

MD

 

[genpowell71]

I can tell you without a doubt that the majority of us Infantry soldiers that went over there knew what we were getting ourselves into. We had it figured out from the day we got word we were deploying to Kuwait. We fought the war all the way up through Iraq and my unit finally ended up in Mosul (101st airborne). Our commanders told us that we would be out of there by 4th of July. Still we seasoned soldiers knew better. The we got the word we'd be relieved by Labor day. But again, we were duped. And without a doubt, American service men and women will continue to die over there because our country's leadership got us into another insurgent style war. And the thing that sucks about the whole thing is that there are no nations that want to help us out there, because the majority of them are owed oil by Iraq. How much did Russia give Iraq in aid? How much are they gonna see out of this whole thing? Jack and Crap, and Jack left town. Same thing with China. Iraq owes them oil also. Again will they see any of it? doubt it. France? There's alamrning evidence that the french actually helped to rearm the Iraq's after the first gulf war. So do I expect any help from anyone? No. Will the current president do anything different? No Will Kerry do anything of real benifit for the servive men and women there? Probably not.

 

[Jesus]

And if they elect a fundamentalist Muslim in a free election?

Well if it's really a US puppet government, we won't let that happen will we?

 

[Jesus]

The Russians had Afghanistan, now we have Iraq. Democracy only works when it is wanted will be the lesson learned here. Once again we have imposed our will on another nation. So sad.....jdcamb

Your right. I am sure no one likes freedom when it's forced upon them.

I was reading some stories that my daughter brought home from school that she is doing a paper on. It was a bucnh of stories written by black slaves years ago. But the one thing I noticed throughout all the stories, is that the main focus of theire lives was obtaining freedom. To do anything it took to get it.

Everyone in this world should have the chance at freedom.

Everyone.

 

[Silver]

Your right. I am sure no one likes freedom when it's forced upon them.

I was reading some stories that my daughter brought home from school that she is doing a paper on. It was a bucnh of stories written by black slaves years ago. But the one thing I noticed throughout all the stories, is that the main focus of theire lives was obtaining freedom. To do anything it took to get it.

Everyone in this world should have the chance at freedom.

Everyone.

Except the Saudi people, or the Pakistanis, because it happens to be politically expedient that they don't?

I agree with your freedom sentiment. I'd just like to see it evenly applied if that's the rationale we happen to be using for invading other countries.

 

[MikeD]

'Freedom?' I don't think there's a unified, pan-cultural definition for that. To a lot of people, 'democracy' means living in apostasy, against the word of their God and his appointed rulers on earth. Hey, I don't get it, but that's how a lot of people think. Most of them are ignorant and have never been told anything else...but we're products of our environment, just like them. (It's like Austin Powers..."finally those capitalist bastards got what they deserve, eh, comrade?)

Everyone should have the chance to be free...OK...but they're going to have to do it themselves. We need to lead by example. People should want to be like the US, because the US should be free at home and righteous in its dealings abroad. They should seize their own freedom when it's important to them. We can't free everyone. We're not everyone's parents, and we should stop acting like it.

MD

 

[MikeD]

'Twas sweet. Logged on about 14,000 miles driving, 30,000 miles flying, and 600 miles of hitchhiking. Spent a total of probably 2 months sleeping without a roof over my head, caught about 400lbs of salmon and halibut, hung out with sea otters and moose, and some great friends I hadn't seen in years. Finally rode moab, finally rode whistler, toured 1000-year-old castles and churches, ate lots of pork and cabbage, water-skied, crabbed, oystered, clammed, skied the rockies, the wasatch, and the tetons, had 3 hospital visits... one from skiing, one from biking, and one from partying at my little brothers graduation (I'm too old, apparently).

I've been hanging with my friends off the coast of St. Bart's playing with spider monkey's and dropping acid...changed my whole perspective on ****.

Viva la differance.

 

[Damn True]

'Freedom?' I don't think there's a unified, pan-cultural definition for that. To a lot of people, 'democracy' means living in apostasy, against the word of their God and his appointed rulers on earth. Hey, I don't get it, but that's how a lot of people think. Most of them are ignorant and have never been told anything else...but we're products of our environment, just like them. (It's like Austin Powers..."finally those capitalist bastards got what they deserve, eh, comrade?)

Everyone should have the chance to be free...OK...but they're going to have to do it themselves. We need to lead by example. People should want to be like the US, because the US should be free at home and righteous in its dealings abroad. They should seize their own freedom when it's important to them. We can't free everyone. We're not everyone's parents, and we should stop acting like it.

MD

What about narco-syndacalist communes?

 

[MikeD]

What about narco-syndacalist communes?

I thought we were an autonomous collective!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well if it's really a US puppet government, we won't let that happen will we?

if its a religious fundamentalist like the ones in arabia its ok. if the new gvmt kills more than saddam? its still ok... if the new gvmt is a fascism?, still ok.

the only department in which puppet gmvt need to be, is in the trade department. otherwise, the US will look other way and start whistling.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Your right. I am sure no one likes freedom when it's forced upon them.

I was reading some stories that my daughter brought home from school that she is doing a paper on. It was a bucnh of stories written by black slaves years ago. But the one thing I noticed throughout all the stories, is that the main focus of theire lives was obtaining freedom. To do anything it took to get it.

Everyone in this world should have the chance at freedom.

Everyone.

yup, freedom to be un-free if they want to.

isnt impossing freedom against people, who may not want freedom in the western concept and may choose a theology, against the core of the freedom idea itself????

and what is this "freedom" you refer too??

the one the slaves refer to, or this new concept of "foreign elite decision, people ratification" which is the democracy the US pushes for other nations????

is it freedom to "liberate" some people to turn them into a puppet gvmt??? like the US has always done wherever it has landed marines in the last 20 years????
is that just changing the people from subjugating hands?????

 

[Changleen]

'Freedom?' I don't think there's a unified, pan-cultural definition for that. To a lot of people, 'democracy' means living in apostasy, against the word of their God and his appointed rulers on earth. Hey, I don't get it, but that's how a lot of people think. Most of them are ignorant and have never been told anything else...but we're products of our environment, just like them. (It's like Austin Powers..."finally those capitalist bastards got what they deserve, eh, comrade?)

Everyone should have the chance to be free...OK...but they're going to have to do it themselves. We need to lead by example. People should want to be like the US, because the US should be free at home and righteous in its dealings abroad. They should seize their own freedom when it's important to them. We can't free everyone. We're not everyone's parents, and we should stop acting like it.

MD