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Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Whoa.... who knew Changleen is merely a Nom-de-plum for Bob Scheer?

Koo-koo for coca-puffs!

:p


Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?
The Nation | 11.Jan | Robert Scheer

Is it conceivable that Al Qaeda, as defined by President Bush as the center of a vast and well-organized international terrorist conspiracy, does not exist?

To even raise the question amid all the officially inspired hysteria is heretical, especially in the context of the US media's supine acceptance of Administration claims relating to national security. Yet a brilliant new BBC film produced by one of Britain's leading documentary filmmakers systematically challenges this and many other accepted articles of faith in the so-called war on terror.

The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear, a three-hour historical film by Adam Curtis recently aired by the British Broadcasting Corp., argues coherently that much of what we have been told about the threat of international terrorism "is a fantasy that has been exaggerated and distorted by politicians. It is a dark illusion that has spread unquestioned through governments around the world, the security services and the international media."

Stern stuff, indeed. But consider just a few of the many questions the program poses along the way:

§ If Osama bin Laden does, in fact, head a vast international terrorist organization with trained operatives in more than forty countries, as claimed by Bush, why, despite torture of prisoners, has this Administration failed to produce hard evidence of it?

§ How can it be that in Britain since 9/11, 664 people have been detained on suspicion of terrorism but only seventeen have been found guilty, most of them with no connection to Islamist groups and none who were proven members of Al Qaeda?

§ Why have we heard so much frightening talk about "dirty bombs" when experts say it is panic rather than radioactivity that would kill people?

§ Why did Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claim on Meet the Press in 2001 that Al Qaeda controlled massive high-tech cave complexes in Afghanistan, when British and US military forces later found no such thing?

Of course, the documentary does not doubt that an embittered, well-connected and wealthy Saudi man named Osama bin Laden helped finance various affinity groups of Islamist fanatics that have engaged in terror, including the 9/11 attacks. Nor does it challenge the notion that a terrifying version of fundamentalist Islam has led to gruesome spates of violence throughout the world. But the film, both more sober and more deeply provocative than Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, directly challenges the conventional wisdom by making a powerful case that the Bush Administration, led by a tight-knit cabal of Machiavellian neoconservatives, has seized upon the false image of a unified international terrorist threat to replace the expired Soviet empire in order to push a political agenda.

Terrorism is deeply threatening, but it appears to be a much more fragmented and complex phenomenon than the octopus-network image of Al Qaeda, with bin Laden as its head, would suggest.

While the BBC documentary acknowledges that the threat of terrorism is both real and growing, it disagrees that the threat is centralized:

"There are dangerous and fanatical individuals and groups around the world who have been inspired by extreme Islamist ideas and who will use the techniques of mass terror--the attacks on America and Madrid make this only too clear. But the nightmare vision of a uniquely powerful hidden organization waiting to strike our societies is an illusion. Wherever one looks for this Al Qaeda organization, from the mountains of Afghanistan to the 'sleeper cells' in America, the British and Americans are chasing a phantom enemy."

The fact is, despite the efforts of several government commissions and a vast army of investigators, we still do not have a credible narrative of a "war on terror" that is being fought in the shadows.

Consider, for example, that neither the 9/11 commission nor any court of law has been able to directly take evidence from the key post-9/11 terror detainees held by the United States. Everything we know comes from two sides that both have a great stake in exaggerating the threat posed by Al Qaeda: the terrorists themselves and the military and intelligence agencies that have a vested interest in maintaining the facade of an overwhelmingly dangerous enemy.

Such a state of national ignorance about an endless war is, as The Power of Nightmares makes clear, simply unacceptable in a functioning democracy.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Come to think of it, I've never seen hard evidence of North Korea either. I mean, its easily within the realm of possibility that the govt. doctors all maps and controls the media. Ive never met a north korean and I dont know anyone who has been to north korea. Im pretty sure it isnt actually there.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
BurlyShirley said:
Come to think of it, I've never seen hard evidence of North Korea either. I mean, its easily within the realm of possibility that the govt. doctors all maps and controls the media. Ive never met a north korean and I dont know anyone who has been to north korea. Im pretty sure it isnt actually there.

Kinda like Jesus and germs eh? You hear a lot about 'em but you're hard pressed to find someone who's actually seen 'em.
 

MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
3,428
0
Charlotte, NC
BurlyShirley said:
Come to think of it, I've never seen hard evidence of North Korea either. I mean, its easily within the realm of possibility that the govt. doctors all maps and controls the media. Ive never met a north korean and I dont know anyone who has been to north korea. Im pretty sure it isnt actually there.


God, Jesus and Allah too right BS?


edit... N8 beat me to it.

Interesting article none the less.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Silver said:
North Korea actually has the reactors. That much we do know. Not the same situation.
how do you know? have you seen them? bush just made it all up and the IAEA is just a puppet for all we know, right? trust nothing. the truth is out there. where's my hemp shoes?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
I'm guessing you haven't seen the documentary. Let's it makes a pretty good point that the people in charge now were in charge before, and they placed ideology over reality on more than one occasion.

And they aren't above lying to the citizens if it suits thier aims, either. You might want to watch it. It's nothing if not interesting.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BurlyShirley said:
how do you know? have you seen them?
I haven't personally, but we have the receipt. Rumsfeld was on the board of directors of a company that sold 2 reactors to North Korea in 2000 with Clinton's blessing.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?
The Nation | 11.Jan | Robert Scheer

Yet a brilliant new BBC film....
It was hard to take anything in the op/ed seriously past this point.

The only thing brilliant the BBC produced in recent years was Red Dwarf and Chef! and it's been a while since those came out.

:p
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Silver said:
I haven't personally
Yeah, thats what I thought ;)

It isnt there and niether is Al Queda or germs and Im pretty sure they made up that whole holocaust thing too just to frighten people into obeying Lord Bush.

I havent seen this documentary, but if there is no Al Queda, who exactly are my buddies fighting right now in Afghanistan when they refer to them as "Al Queda"

Maybe theyre just all really confused.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,908
2,876
Pōneke
If anyone wants copies of the Power of Nightmares just let me know. I have all 3 on DVDs. It is as great a series as Burly is an ostrich.

 
Sure, Al Qaeda exists, so does the Klan. As a world society we have made radical Islamists out to be much more than they are; we, and Bush's administration in particular, have in fact helped them strengthen and grow.

The Afghanistan gambit might have worked, or would have if Dub hadn't re-engineered Iraq as a new breeding ground.

The domestic "security" circus is a joke, and a very bad one.

As for the good old BBC, I take them with a grain of salt, which is a good idea when regarding anyone's ideas.

J
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
The real frightening thing about USA, is that an avarege American wathces 5hours of TV every day... and that channels like Fox exist.
I´ve read that 40% of Fox channel watchers think that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!.
As me and my buddies say "Americans are real smart as individuals, but in groups, they are more dump than pigs"

This is not for stepping on anyones toes... i just have a very hard time understanding how the f*** Bush could be re-elected after films like Fahrenheit 9/11, Bowling for Columbine etc...

Could someone please fill me in?, i gues (and hope) that this is something you discuss over there?

sorry for my poor english..
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Lars_moelby said:
...how the f*** Bush could be re-elected after films like Fahrenheit 9/11, Bowling for Columbine etc...

There's far real facts in the writtings of Hans Christian Andersen than any Michael Moore tale.
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
hmm... if i understand you correctly, you say that Michael Moore is soo subjective that he actualy twists the facts, or lies???

Im just thinking, from where i stand, it looks like there are SOO many things that are VERY wrong in the USA, take your democracy for examble, an international board of smart heads have compared all the democracys in the world and USA´s is on the same level as Cambodia and such countrys (maybe not exactly Cambodia, but contries like it)... Money is more worth than peoples lives... and a Leader that can isue a "general warning" to make people afraid so they will consume (from Bowling from columbine, i know, but still VERY true) can be re elected because he have had more TV commercials for him than John kerry (maybe not, but i hope you get my point)...

once again, sorry for my poor english, please state if anything is unclear!
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
oh... BTW, the democracy thing is pointet at your election ways, every state has it own ways, and no-one can cooporate... after last election (Bush VS Goore) a huge election commitee was put together to control that everyone was able to vote on equal terms, that commitee was given X amount of $ to do this for... but when the election comes, and bush sences that he might not win, he choses to give that commitee 10% of the X amount of $ it should have had, so that in thoose places (black people, poor people) that Kerry would have had most votes, people had to stand in line for 4 hours to give their vote!.

Also in general, your Voting system sucks... WTF is it with, "if in a state, 51% of the voters, vote Repuplican, all the votes (i cant remember the exact word in english... lets say political power) in that state goes to the republicans"... what is that for a democracy??
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Lars_moelby said:
hmm... if i understand you correctly, you say that Michael Moore is soo subjective that he actualy twists the facts, or lies???

Im just thinking, from where i stand, it looks like there are SOO many things that are VERY wrong in the USA, take your democracy for examble, an international board of smart heads have compared all the democracys in the world and USA´s is on the same level as Cambodia and such countrys (maybe not exactly Cambodia, but contries like it)... Money is more worth than peoples lives... and a Leader that can isue a "general warning" to make people afraid so they will consume (from Bowling from columbine, i know, but still VERY true) can be re elected because he have had more TV commercials for him than John kerry (maybe not, but i hope you get my point)...

once again, sorry for my poor english, please state if anything is unclear!
Is that fairy tale author, Michael Moore, your sole source of information on America?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Lars_moelby said:
oh... BTW, the democracy thing is pointet at your election ways, every state has it own ways, and no-one can cooporate... after last election (Bush VS Goore) a huge election commitee was put together to control that everyone was able to vote on equal terms, that commitee was given X amount of $ to do this for... but when the election comes, and bush sences that he might not win, he choses to give that commitee 10% of the X amount of $ it should have had, so that in thoose places (black people, poor people) that Kerry would have had most votes, people had to stand in line for 4 hours to give their vote!.

Also in general, your Voting system sucks... WTF is it with, "if in a state, 51% of the voters, vote Repuplican, all the votes (i cant remember the exact word in english... lets say political power) in that state goes to the republicans"... what is that for a democracy??
..and yet the brilliance of the Electorial College system of election in our Republic has stood the test of 229 years.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
..and yet the brilliance of the Electorial College system of election in our Republic has stood the test of 229 years.
Eh? Where's the logic in that? Feudalism lasted centuries but that doesn't make it a brilliant model of democracry.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Lars_moelby said:
The real frightening thing about USA, is that an avarege American wathces 5hours of TV every day... and that channels like Fox exist.
I´ve read that 40% of Fox channel watchers think that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!.
As me and my buddies say "Americans are real smart as individuals, but in groups, they are more dump than pigs"

This is not for stepping on anyones toes... i just have a very hard time understanding how the f*** Bush could be re-elected after films like Fahrenheit 9/11, Bowling for Columbine etc...

Could someone please fill me in?, i gues (and hope) that this is something you discuss over there?

sorry for my poor english..
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now it's my turn to say something silly- "The real frightening thing about Danes is that they believe everything they read, provided it comes from a source they find politically comfortable." I don't watch five hours of TV in two weeks, and if I do, it's only because the Cowboys game was by chance televised two weeks in a row! You and your buddies are obviously very intelligent and clever to have come up with such a cute generalization with which to deliver your backhand compliment. Who are you to pity us for our 'reported' TV watching when you apparently take Michael Moore's droppings for the truth? Don't apologize for your English, as I am quite sure it exceeds my Danish, but do try to think about what you say before spouting nonsense.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
No, not really. But that's not what I was hushing fluff about.

I just didn't want to read another reply of yours that didn't answer the question, that's all.
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
Nice to hear some response... and please know that this is not to piss anyone off, this it to learn!, as i generaly like USA very much (things like Shuan Palmer, MX, TLD, Honda, Burgers, Hiphop, Downhill and mountainbiking in general come from you guys), and i am pretty sure that Danish and American youth is much the same theese days.

I am only 18 years old, and i try to be as objective as posible, but it is hard when you only know a few sides of a case (sometimes without even knowing it)...

that is why i am doing this... to try to get to know more sides of the case!, because, from what i can draw from those infos i have (we have had a HUGE USA subject in my school), it is very hard for me to understand how Bush can be re-elected!

Im just saying that, i think that living in the most powerfull country in the world, comes with some responsebility (especialy when its s democracy)... and its hard for me to understand that "you guys" can live with your government and society in general being so shallow and money opsessed...

Maybe its just Capitalism i am against (as Idea), not that i am a communist, but its fair to say that my personal goal for humanity is to have as many people being as happy as posible as the same time, if you understand... and Michael Moore or not, there is something very wrong with the way your TV networks choose´s what to send, a bad-unhappy story about a murder sells much more than a happy-ending story of cause, but does nobody care about what that does to the society???

Once again, i would like to point out, that this is not an attack, and it is probadly VERY hard for a single person to speak for the entire USA, but i would SOO much like to learn more about this (especialy learn more sides of the case), because this is a subject that i find very very interesting!..

And, i am sorry for maybe not thinking everything i write totaly through, please dont focus on that and try to see the whole picture!

thanks for listening to me!, hope i get some response!
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
"The real frightening thing about Danes is that they believe everything they read, provided it comes from a source they find politically comfortable."

True, and very nice said indeed... but i dont think that that only counts for Danes=)

I know exactly what you are talking about, and i know that i do it myself also... but its hard not to do it... i am trying all i can not to do it, but you have to make your oppinions out of something, and when the info is limited, so becomes your oppinions... hope you get my point!.
 

Lars_moelby

Chimp
Jan 10, 2005
42
0
Denmark
..and yet the brilliance of the Electorial College system of election in our Republic has stood the test of 229 years.

hmm if you are refering to the general fact that it is ****ed up that 51% can decide over 49%, i totaly agree... Democracy is only still in place because something more clever havent been thought out yet!.. Democracy is just another word "majority dictatorship"...
And as idea, i am against Democracy as well, but as far as i know, there is no better way of running things yet! or what??
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Lars_moelby said:
The real frightening thing about USA, is that an avarege American wathces 5hours of TV every day... and that channels like Fox exist.
What's wrong with Fox... I love 'The Simpsons'! (probably won't get that joke b/c you're not in the US)

Lars_moelby said:
I´ve read that 40% of Fox channel watchers think that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!.
As me and my buddies say "Americans are real smart as individuals, but in groups, they are more dump than pigs"
So you saw 'men in black' too... :rolleyes:

Lars_moelby said:
This is not for stepping on anyones toes... i just have a very hard time understanding how the f*** Bush could be re-elected after films like Fahrenheit 9/11, Bowling for Columbine etc...
Well BFC has nothing to do with the election, that is a single issue that barely surfaced (if at all) during this campaign.

...and Fahrenheit 9/11 did nothing but insight feeling that already existed. In other words there was nothing in it that changed people's opinion - those who loved Bush hated F9/11, those who hated Bush liked F9/11. Notice I did not say that those who hated bush "loved" F9/11... most of us saw it for the propaganda that it was. Although I thought it had some good points - at the end most people like myself recognized it for what it was...

Besides - how is a 2+ hour movie most people saw only once, if at all, supposed to compete with 24-7 (24 hours per day, 7 days per week) media propaganda?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Lars_moelby said:
hmm if you are refering to the general fact that it is ****ed up that 51% can decide over 49%, i totaly agree... Democracy is only still in place because something more clever havent been thought out yet!.. Democracy is just another word "majority dictatorship"...
And as idea, i am against Democracy as well, but as far as i know, there is no better way of running things yet! or what??

Sucks huh? Not only can a person that has the majority of individual votes be elected president BUT someone with who dosen't win the majority of votes can be elected too... is that also "****ed up" as well..? Or is that ok with you. If government of the majority dosen't please you, then perhaps government of the minority will.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Lars_moelby said:
"The real frightening thing about Danes is that they believe everything they read, provided it comes from a source they find politically comfortable."

True, and very nice said indeed... but i dont think that that only counts for Danes=)

I know exactly what you are talking about, and i know that i do it myself also... but its hard not to do it... i am trying all i can not to do it, but you have to make your oppinions out of something, and when the info is limited, so becomes your oppinions... hope you get my point!.
I know it has nothing at all to do with you being Danish...I was just borrowing your own words in order to demonstrate my point. After reading your subsequent posts, I have no problem with you. You are 18 years old and I thought much as you do when I was that age. Experience and books have tempered my opinions since then, so I now see where you're coming from.

Over the years, I have learned that idealism and realism are needed in equal parts. Idealism over realism promotes good ideas that don't work, whereas realism over idealism promotes workable solutions out of phase with virtue. You have the two most important ingredients already, which puts you ahead of most twice your age- a mind reasonably open to possibilities and the ability to admit you were wrong. Carry on. :)
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,908
2,876
Pōneke
N8 said:
Sucks huh? Not only can a person that has the majority of individual votes be elected president BUT someone with who dosen't win the majority of votes can be elected too... is that also "****ed up" as well..? Or is that ok with you. If government of the majority dosen't please you, then perhaps government of the minority will.
How about a government of people who are actually qualified for the tasks in hand? Why should someone who never reads the news, never exposes himself to world or even national trends and opinions, and has spent no time considering the development or direction of his country be allowed to vote? Sounds pretty counterproductive to me.

Two rocket scientists are stuck on a particularly difficult superfluid flow problem, neither of them can agree on the other's solution so they ask Jed who works in the cafeteria? Yeah, good idea.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,908
2,876
Pōneke
N8 said:
There's far real facts in the writtings of Hans Christian Andersen than any Michael Moore tale.
So the Bush family doesn't have a massive shared business interest with the rulling Saud family in Saudi Arabia that informs the majority of GW's foreign policy decisions?
:p
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
To know that I didn't used to think N8 was a tool sickens me :p

I like the Dane. Continue!

And yes, the Electoral College is what you could call ****ed up. It's based on Hobbes(ian?) ideals and values, values which have long been gobbled up by totalitarian regimes the world over. The College brings to mind the Estates General of the French Revolution...
 

Jeff 151

Monkey
Sep 25, 2004
175
0
DeezBay, Cali
Two rocket scientists are stuck on a particularly difficult superfluid flow problem, neither of them can agree on the other's solution so they ask Jed who works in the cafeteria? Yeah, good idea.[/QUOTE]

Hah! That's good.

The Dane represents a viewpoint shared by many across the world. They're looking at the US in abhorrent disbelief. They're thinking: How can the richest, most powerful country in the world be composed of such selfish, ignorant, overweight lemmings? The answer is because our society was created as a wealth generating machine. We are conditioned from birth to buy, buy, buy.

The rampant political correctness movement means we can't look down on an individual for being fat, lazy, and stupid. They are making their own life decisions which must be respected.

I respect every one of our armed forces members for their work in the name of this country. But there is a lot of pressure for military, and people with loved ones in the military, to think they have to back Bush and his agendas and despise Michael Moore, or they will somehow be considered traitorous. This is BS

Give me one reason why you're proud to be an American.
 

chicodude

The Spooninator
Mar 28, 2004
1,054
2
Paradise
Jeff 151 said:
Give me one reason why you're proud to be an American.

Well, I have gotten a good education and a chance to succeed. My country has provided this for everyone regardless of sex/race.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,229
9,114

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Jeff 151 said:
Give me one reason why you're proud to be an American.
Becasue no matter what happens in the world, they talk about us!

chicodude01 said:
Well, I have gotten a good education and a chance to succeed. My country has provided this for everyone regardless of sex/race.
I love the sarcasm...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Changleen said:
So the Bush family doesn't have a massive shared business interest with the rulling Saud family in Saudi Arabia that informs the majority of GW's foreign policy decisions?
:p
They do...but Clinton kissed Saudi ass too.

It's not just a Bush thing.