Not sure if you are aware of this, but there were civilizations before the Romans and Jebus.
Is America headed in the right direction?
- Thread starter Changleen
- Start date
Well, if you want to really get into it, go look up how many civilian casualties there were in Gulf War 1, the 2nd invasion of Iraq, and Afghanistan. Look at how many people died while we were "helping" and "defending" those people. Then think about the perspective of someone that lives in the middle east, maybe in one of those countries, maybe in a neighboring one. It's not hard to get the perspective that the US and western nations are systematically invading and attempting to wipe out the populations of those middle eastern nations. What do you think happens when we take out a terrorist leader or camp? A big hole in the ground and all the surrounding villages know what happened and in an instant, we just spawned the next generation of terrorists, that we'll have to "take out" sometime later in the future, which means an even bigger hole with more area around the sides and more people that know people that were killed, and again, the next next generation of terrorists. Yeah, while you think we've been spreading "FREEDUM" in those countries, the perspective of the civilians and indigenous peoples in those countries is that we are oppressing and inciting violence. Kids and civilians started getting their limbs blown off when bombs started showing up all over Iraq. How much more oppressive does it need to be to fit your definition?
Ok im way to drunk to respond to this idiot right bow, but as soon as im sober someone remind me to obliterate this nonsensensical load of crap homeboy is spewing...
I dont need your fixing thankyouverymuch...unless you want to include the Catholic church and its genocide of Native Americans, Extremist Xtians who like killing abortion doctors or any other idiot who follows an imaginary man in the sky who tells him to kill others in his holy name...
We have propped up or stood up oppressive foreign regimes in Central America, Afghanistan and Asia. All because there was money to be made sending young men off to die in the name of Phreeduhmb™.
The US have never, repeat NEVER gone to war unless the 1% stood to profit monetarily from it somehow.
From a man who had been there, done that and brought back a few t shirts...
"WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?"
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
Regarding the direction of this country, I just donated $20 to the Bernie Sanders campaign. I still have little faith that he could win, and, if so, if could get anything meaningful enacted over the Republican-stacked House and do-nothing Senate. That said, I like him a hell of a lot better than anyone else out there.
I too have donated to Bernie. I think there is an angle that he could get elected. If the republican smear campaign against Clinton works, he could win the primary. In the off chance that Trump or Cain wins the primary, they will alienate large swaths of the population.
But even with the longshot of him winning, to paraphrase the man himself. There isn't a whole lot he could do with the vast majority of congress being firmly in the grasp of their corporate sponsors/owners.
Feeling the Bern here too...IDGAF if he wins or not, but I am picking the guy who represents the best way ahead for the citizens of this country, not the corporations...
Yes I absolutely put all those people, and anyone who kills in the name of God, in that group. But it doesn't matter if I label them hypocrites, God does. If it were up to me I'd include roadies too
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@Jm_: Well, if you want to really get into it, go look up how many civilian casualties there were in Gulf War 1, the 2nd invasion of Iraq, and Afghanistan. Look at how many people died while we were "helping" and "defending" those people. THEN CONTRAST THAT WITH MANY OF HIS OWN PEOPLE SADDAM KILLED, USED CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON, ETC. ADD IN THE INNOCENTS KILLED BY THE TALIBAN, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, ETC. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE. Then think about the perspective of someone that lives in the middle east, maybe in one of those countries, maybe in a neighboring one. It's not hard to get the perspective that the US and western nations are systematically invading and attempting to wipe out the populations of those middle eastern nations. TOTALLY FALSE. IF THAT WERE TRUE, WE COULD DO IT IN A MONTH. What do you think happens when we take out a terrorist leader or camp? A big hole in the ground and all the surrounding villages know what happened and in an instant, we just spawned the next generation of terrorists, that we'll have to "take out" sometime later in the future, which means an even bigger hole with more area around the sides and more people that know people that were killed, and again, the next next generation of terrorists. AGREE 100%. NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM. TERRORISTS LOVE THEM. Yeah, while you think we've been spreading "FREEDUM" in those countries, the perspective of the civilians and indigenous peoples in those countries is that we are oppressing and inciting violence. Kids and civilians started getting their limbs blown off when bombs started showing up all over Iraq. THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES, MOSTLY AT THE HANDS OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE. WHO DO YOU THINK ISIS IS KILLING MOSTLY? "HERETIC" MUSLIMS! How much more oppressive does it need to be to fit your definition
Look I'm not saying it was wise on our part to intervene... To think we could introduce democracy to a people who only know oppression and a tribal system and think they would all the sudden start allowing voting and start building movie theaters and opening furniture stores is idiotic. To create a vacuum and leave is totally irresponsible and it probably would have been better to do nothing.
But we are not engaging in genocide, stealing oil, annexing the middle east, etc.
Look I'm not saying it was wise on our part to intervene... To think we could introduce democracy to a people who only know oppression and a tribal system and think they would all the sudden start allowing voting and start building movie theaters and opening furniture stores is idiotic. To create a vacuum and leave is totally irresponsible and it probably would have been better to do nothing.
But we are not engaging in genocide, stealing oil, annexing the middle east, etc.
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I'm glad you asked. Morals, right and wrong, and even democracy, were not pioneered by Jesus. There were societies and civilizations before Jebus came along. Your allusion was that the forefathers founded our nation on these principles because "Jebus invented them".
It's not that you are wrong, you are not, but it's that you can't put yourself in the shoes of someone else that is not American in a different country that sees the EFFECT of all those things we have done. You can claim America has the moral high ground in these places, but in reality the only reason people are claiming that because they want to believe it. Let's not forget what your original post was about.
We went into Kuwait to assure the flow of oil and prevent Sadaam from controlling said flow. Shrub went back after Sadaam because of his Daddy issues and destabilized further an unstable region, adding fuel to the extremist Muslims fires against the US. Was Sadaam a good dude? No, and the world is a better place without him. But we would not have gone if there was no oil, period. There was no great outcry of Iraqis begging to be freed. Is Iraq a better place now? Not hardly. We created a power vacuum.
Let us not ignore the fact that your boy Jesus was the first Socialist. To him according to his need, from him according to his ability etc...Socialism does very well when it is allowed to. I would rather pay for my neighbors education and medication than his incarceration.
Let us not ignore the fact that your boy Jesus was the first Socialist. To him according to his need, from him according to his ability etc...Socialism does very well when it is allowed to. I would rather pay for my neighbors education and medication than his incarceration.
Whoa, you went all caps AND bold. You must be right.
Yes, we arent engaging in genocide...but we are certainly aiding and abetting in it. And we also arent stealing oil...but again, we are enabling those who do. These same greed mongers whose lobbyists convince our elected idiots to spend American blood and tax money to retrieve dead dino juice from under the Earths surface.
Pretty much all of western Europe now has a higher standard of living than the US not to mention better upward mobility. So socialism has been proven to be massively successful in modern, wealthy open societies.When has socialism ever worked?
There is also that little old place called China. You know, the country that pretty much can destroy the free market power house of the US with little more than the click of the sell button.
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enumerate them please.
The defining Christian Belief that this country was founded upon can be best described by Thomas Jefferson's reflections on slavery. He felt slavery was religiously and morally repugnant, but it made him money, so he was cool with it.
Whether or not western Europe has a higher standard of living is debatable. But upward mobility is contradictory to the concept of socialism, and western Europe is not socialist!
And China is communist, not socialist. Furthermore, current financial events notwithstanding, because they own so much of our debt we have them by the short and curlies period. Militarily, it would be ugly and costly just because they have so many bodies to throw at us... But it would be no contest. They have AN aircraft carrier, a pitifully trained navy, etc.
From the Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”
"...Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”
"...Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World”
"...With a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence”
Constitution:
Honors the Christian Sabbath via giving the president 10 excluding Sunday to sign in Article 1, Section 7, Clause 2:
“If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law,”
Signed "The Year of Our Lord" ... Direct reference to God and a simultaneous nose thumb to Great Britain.
Paris Peace Treaty (formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain):
Preamble: "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”
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Since the concepts of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state seem foreign to you, here's a little thingy, nothing too important, you know...
The First Amendment:
The First Amendment (1791) prohibits Congress from obstructing the exercise of certain individual freedoms: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press,freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Its Free Exercise Clause guarantees a person's right to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to freely exercise that belief, and its Establishment Clause prevents the federal government from creating an official national church or favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. The amendment guarantees an individual's right to express and to be exposed to a wide range of opinions and views. It was intended to ensure a free exchange of ideas even if the ideas are unpopular. It also guarantees an individual's right to physically gather with a group of people to picket or protest; or associate with others in groups for economic, political or religious purposes. Additionally, it guarantees an individual's right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I had kids, and moved to the opposite side of the planet, so I was a bit busy.
I'm good, thanks. I posted this when I was drunk and had just watched some BS about some stupid fuck doing something fucking stupid that will probably cause thousands of fairly horrid and unnecessary deaths at some point, but 'money' so whatevs.
Also I have been riding a bike a lot more again, so I felt slightly drunkenly legitimised coming here and mouthing off, apparently.
I don't think the whole world is going to shit, just parts of it. I live in Denmark now and it's really pretty cool.Umm America is headed exactly in teh same direction as the rest of the world:
It is just a step ahead of Yurp.
My rant is mainly because I used to live in the states and had a really good time with great people, who I want to not live somewhere that sucks. More importantly, America's power and influence in the world still seems to relentlessly do stupid, and often downright evil shit that does not just stop at its borders. As a co-inhabitant of Earth, who is often in some way often affected, I find many of these things - to put it mildly, frustrating. Stupid. just. keeps. on. happening.
Possibly top of this list is conservative posture of climate change shortsighted, dangerous and basically criminal, let alone massively immoral. I keep wondering when all the sensible, grounded people I know exist over there are gonna actually stand up and tell these fuckers to fuck off. Why don't any of your violent-rampage-gun-nuts turn their attention to the Koch brothers or something? What is it with shooting up schools anyway?
So yeah - basically what is it with the US and the inability to consider others? I suspect the individualism at the heart of much US culture has a lot to do with it. This too is frustrating, because if you sit down and think about the evidence putting the needs of the individual first in all cases is batshit stupid, as is privatising institutions that are for the greater social good, or, in the same vein, allowing vested interests to dominate the political process.
Imposed by your own government, of course. You don't want that foreign sort, right?
Yup. That's the other thing. You guys seems to be somewhat culturally conscious of these issues and still do nothing about it. This seems to mostly to be about the influence of evil money in politics and yet we're on Clinton vs. Bush version 18 - The 'wilful blindness to the evidence of our own experience' edition, costing more than ever, despite Hillary 'I'll take money from anyone' Clinton's 'efforts'.
Thanks for being here for me to vent like this RM. Who runs this place now? Wasn't a it a dude called Aaron?
Hi Toshi!
Nice to see you, ages ago now. I guess that split is probably true. I hope you can keep growing that minority, before evidence based policy becomes a crime.
Which sort of Christians are True Christians? Would that be your sort? Whilst I do not seek to defend Islam (or any religion) it must be obvious to you that Islam is just like Christianity in that it is practiced by a huge number of people across the world and within it are people of most political and ideological stripes. Islam and Christianity both contain total pacifists and intolerant, backwards looking sects such as Wahhabism or the US Christian Right. They're both as stupid as each other.
Most Christians seem to use a taxpayer/public debt financed arm these days. You were in one yourself it seems?
You seem to think Sharia law is going to be forced on you somehow? Care to explain how that'll happen?
Whereas in the US, if a women is raped, she is just shamed and told it's her fault for dressing like a slut. So much better! Plus the religious right would have her keep the child because they don't know how to think rationally about 'human rights'. You're right, the US is lightyears ahead.
So what are you getting at here? Is placing others before yourself inline with your society of individualism? In what way is US foreign policy embracing any of those values? Or maybe you're talking about how the Bible is less violent than the Koran. Apart from all the bits where God calls for genocide of course...
Seems like a great reason to go to their country and kill them first eh?
Sometimes you can't make this shit up can you? This is why your country is turning to shit. A gritty home-fried combination of ignorance, lies, and extremism. Congrats on helping make the world a better place.
Died in service to the military industrial complex and it's constant requirement for more war with more expensive munitions reigned down with ever greater abandon so the stock trackers of Boeing and Northrop Grumman can keep on pointing up. Died in service to a massively inflated 'threat' your politicians have largely colluded to construct and support and that you clearly don't properly understand.
So your true attitude is for people to run away from problems they don't like, rather than trying to fix them?
How is upwards mobility contrary to the concept of socialism? Actually: It's totally not. Socialists don't want to live in cave any more than you do! Also; Western Europe is considerably more socialist than the UK and especially the US. Do you actually have a clue what socialism means or just a vaguely defined prejudice about what you think it means?
Really? 'I owe the bank so much money now, I've got them right where I want them!' Hahahaha.
Secondly, you really need to have a read about what China actually is. In many ways they are more capitalist than the US, but they are also by turns socialist, liberal, repressive, communist, realist, technocratic and many other seemingly contradictory things when you look closer. Applying broad labels like you seem to love to do is not helpful or realistic.
Why are you suddenly discussing fighting them? What does that have to do with anything? Anyway, the evidence is your army can't even convincingly beat the Afghanistan warlords so insisting you could take China is a bit of stretch.
dtm1 asked when socialism has worked, in reference to Bernie Sanders. He's pretty clearly down with capitalism, with a flavor of social democracy on top of that. Guess what? That's the Western Europe recipe.
Also note that I would personally profit a hell of a lot more under Trump or any of that party's idiots, but I don't support them because I think they and their social policies are corrosive to the fabric of our society, and that their economic policies will lead to discontent and ultimately unrest.
Also note that I would personally profit a hell of a lot more under Trump or any of that party's idiots, but I don't support them because I think they and their social policies are corrosive to the fabric of our society, and that their economic policies will lead to discontent and ultimately unrest.
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Commie.
To be absolutely truthful, the US military destroyed any standing formations they faced in shockingly quick order...there truly was no martial competition. Strategically winning the war was easy, winning the peace is another story. But the corporate warmongers didn't realize enough profit off of that, so we continued...