[Jm_]

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”

"...Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”

"...Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World”

"...With a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence”

Constitution:

Honors the Christian Sabbath via giving the president 10 excluding Sunday to sign in Article 1, Section 7, Clause 2:

“If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law,”

Signed "The Year of Our Lord" ... Direct reference to God and a simultaneous nose thumb to Great Britain.

Paris Peace Treaty (formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain):

Preamble: "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”

I'll only address the parts that actually form our government ( so not the declaration of independence and treaties prior):

Having a day off is simply a good idea, foundation of the workweek and labor rules you could also argue. Weak at best.

Signed in the way that everyone kept track of time (and still does), seriously? That's a "christian principle"? lol...

And that's it, I'm not sure what preamble you are talking about, that text is not in the constitution.

(ok, I will talk about the DOI just a bit, my "creator" was my parents )

You could just as easily argue our government was founded on Greek principles.

 

[dtm1]

Since the concepts of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state seem foreign to you, here's a little thingy, nothing too important, you know...

The First Amendment:

The First Amendment (1791) prohibits Congress from obstructing the exercise of certain individual freedoms: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press,freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Its Free Exercise Clause guarantees a person's right to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to freely exercise that belief, and its Establishment Clause prevents the federal government from creating an official national church or favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. The amendment guarantees an individual's right to express and to be exposed to a wide range of opinions and views. It was intended to ensure a free exchange of ideas even if the ideas are unpopular. It also guarantees an individual's right to physically gather with a group of people to picket or protest; or associate with others in groups for economic, political or religious purposes. Additionally, it guarantees an individual's right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Not foreign at all and I totally embrace that element of our constitution.

Since reading comprehension and respectful discourse are completely foreign to you I'll repeat what I've already said 3 times here:

1. I said the US was founded I Christian principals
2. Others here said it was not
3. So I laid out some evidence
4. Was asked to enumerate more
5. I did, and now no one is saying that America was not founded on Christian principals (principally by Christians btw, how does that suit you).
6. I win. Have a good day.

 

[dtm1]

I'll only address the parts that actually form our government ( so not the declaration of independence and treaties prior):

Having a day off is simply a good idea, foundation of the workweek and labor rules you could also argue. Weak at best.

Signed in the way that everyone kept track of time (and still does), seriously? That's a "christian principle"? lol...

And that's it, I'm not sure what preamble you are talking about, that text is not in the constitution.

(ok, I will talk about the DOI just a bit, my "creator" was my parents )

You could just as easily argue our government was founded on Greek principles.

Those docs were instrumental in making us who we are. Just because they are not the Constitution doesn't make them any less valid, in fact the DOI & PPT give more insight into the founders beliefs and world view, the Constitution sets it out in a legal perspective.


And yes, I agree the Greek world view has heavily influenced western thinking, even to this day. Logic, philosophy, etc. But even the Greeks weren't atheists

Sidenote, appreciate your ability to disagree and challenge and be cool about it.

 

[dtm1]

So being new here I had no idea what I was walking into when I posted, and the heart of my post was not you start a religious debate, but rather to point out how evil and dangerous sharia law is.

In fact, every religion is different from Islam and sharia law (but especially Christianity, which is why they've sworn to kill innocent Christians specifically, and are doing so right now. Notice they haven't sworn to kill Mormons, or Buddhists - although they along with all you atheists fall under the infidel category).

---Every religion's and society's definition of martyr is essentially "dying innocent for ones beliefs"... Islam's (and sharia law and Islam go hand in hand) definition of a martyr is "dying in the process of killing others"! That really is all one need understand to realize how evil and backwards it is.---

 

[Jm_]

So being new here I had no idea what I was walking into when I posted, and the heart of my post was not you start a religious debate, but rather to point out how evil and dangerous sharia law is.

In fact, every religion is different from Islam and sharia law (but especially Christianity, which is why they've sworn to kill innocent Christians specifically, and are doing so right now. Notice they haven't sworn to kill Mormons, or Buddhists - although they along with all you atheists fall under the infidel category).

---Every religion's and society's definition of martyr is essentially "dying innocent for ones beliefs"... Islam's (and sharia law and Islam go hand in hand) definition of a martyr is "dying in the process of killing others"! That really is all one need understand to realize how evil and backwards it is.---

Which religion, predominantly, has been traveling to the Middle East over the last 15 years to kill Muslims?

 

[Jm_]

Those docs were instrumental in making us who we are. Just because they are not the Constitution doesn't make them any less valid, in fact the DOI & PPT give more insight into the founders beliefs and world view, the Constitution sets it out in a legal perspective.


And yes, I agree the Greek world view has heavily influenced western thinking, even to this day. Logic, philosophy, etc. But even the Greeks weren't atheists

Sidenote, appreciate your ability to disagree and challenge and be cool about it.

However, if they intended those principles to be what our country was founded on, they would have included them in the Constitution, rather than specifically prohibit the formation of and promotion of a state religion. Pretty good evidence to the contrary of your point I think?

 

[kidwoo]

the heart of my post was not you start a religious debate, but rather to point out how evil and dangerous sharia law is.

It's true. Fundamental Islam is kind of going through what I would call their "crusades" phase.

But just like you can say people who shoot gynecologists are't 'true christians' there are plenty of people out there who would say the same about your common suicide bomber.

But the basis of fundamentalist control and fear mongering are exactly the same: someone who believes an almighty creator is justifying and even demanding their actions.

 

[FSM]

If they all but turned to Myself, the one true God, all would be at peace.

 

[JohnE]

I knew he would show up sooner or later to smite you heathens...ALL HAIL TEH FSM!!!!

 

[Pesqueeb]

 

[JohnE]

Not foreign at all and I totally embrace that element of our constitution.

Since reading comprehension and respectful discourse are completely foreign to you I'll repeat what I've already said 3 times here:

1. I said the US was founded I Christian principals
2. Others here said it was not
3. So I laid out some evidence
4. Was asked to enumerate more
5. I did, and now no one is saying that America was not founded on Christian principals (principally by Christians btw, how does that suit you).
6. I win. Have a good day.

I will say it...America was not founded on Xtian principals. It was founded on capitalist greed...the Founding Fathers (Rich white slave and land owners...) started a war that none of them had any skin in and sent proletariat farmers to fight, bleed and die for them.

If America™ was founded on Xtian principles, then those principals and this country are completely fucked.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Changleen, welcome back!

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Not foreign at all and I totally embrace that element of our constitution.

Since reading comprehension and respectful discourse are completely foreign to you I'll repeat what I've already said 3 times here:

1. I said the US was founded I Christian principals
2. Others here said it was not
3. So I laid out some evidence
4. Was asked to enumerate more
5. I did, and now no one is saying that America was not founded on Christian principals (principally by Christians btw, how does that suit you).
6. I win. Have a good day.

You haven't provided any serious evidence, only vague phrases taken at random. These prove nothing conclusive as to any direct governmental endorsement of Christianity or that the US was founded on those principles.

The original settlers who came here did so to escape religious persecution, so they could worship as they saw fit. They wanted to escape a tyrannical government. Hence, freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. Not "let's move to another continent and make everyone worship Jesus."

All you're doing is posting some thin "proof' of your ridiculous claims then beating your chest about it with regurgitated conservative platitudes. A respectful discourse as you called it, is the exchange of ideas in an attempt to understand each other's position. Please come back when you feel more capable of such interaction.

 

[dtm1]

"Ideologies are not defeated with guns, they're defeated by better ideas."

 

[dtm1]

You haven't provided any serious evidence, only vague phrases taken at random. These prove nothing conclusive as to any direct governmental endorsement of Christianity or that the US was founded on those principles.

The original settlers who came here did so to escape religious persecution, so they could worship as they saw fit. They wanted to escape a tyrannical government. Hence, freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. Not "let's move to another continent and make everyone worship Jesus."

All you're doing is posting some thin "proof' of your ridiculous claims then beating your chest about it with regurgitated conservative platitudes. A respectful discourse as you called it, is the exchange of ideas in an attempt to understand each other's position. Please come back when you feel more capable of such interaction.

 

[Jm_]

Can you just type like the rest of us?

 

[rockofullr]

Sorry guys I got to the party late. Did I miss all the lolz?

 

[kidwoo]

Uh oh.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/10/pope-francis-questions-american-exceptionalism.html

 

[dtm1]

Uh oh.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/10/pope-francis-questions-american-exceptionalism.html

Yes I get it, use someone you think I support against my own position.

But this is actually very interesting, I hadn't even thought of it until now...

On every topic (climate change, social policy, gun control, socialism, and on and on) almost every one of you God hating atheists (how one can hate something that doesn't exist is beyond me... but, like, whatevs, I failed philosophy) has espoused the same as the pope here in this thread.

Except one of course.

And yet I disagree with him on just about every subject.

Why do you think that is???? Serious question.

 

[Pesqueeb]

God hating atheists

That's not how it works.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Thus we shall strike our enemies: http://www.culturainquieta.com/es/arte/diseno/item/7029-arroja-la-primera-piedra-con-el-tirachinas-jesucristo.html

 

[Jm_]

Yes I get it, use someone you think I support against my own position.

But this is actually very interesting, I hadn't even thought of it until now...

On every topic (climate change, social policy, gun control, socialism, and on and on) almost every one of you God hating atheists (how one can hate something that doesn't exist is beyond me... but, like, whatevs, I failed philosophy) has espoused the same as the pope here in this thread.

Except one of course.

And yet I disagree with him on just about every subject.

Why do you think that is???? Serious question.

Ignorance, bias and selfishness? Ignorance of science. Bias of thinking that people are all like you. Selfishness when you put yourself ahead of the entire population and future generations.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Ignorance, bias and selfishness? Ignorance of science. Bias of thinking that people are all like you. Selfishness when you put yourself ahead of the entire population and future generations.

AKA N8. This guy has to be N8. Same old, tired, regurgitated, right wing nationalism BS.

 

[jonKranked]

I will say it...America was not founded on Xtian principals. It was founded on capitalist greed...the Founding Fathers (Rich white slave and land owners...) started a war that none of them had any skin in and sent proletariat farmers to fight, bleed and die for them.

If America™ was founded on Xtian principles, then those principals and this country are completely fucked.

the foundations of america were build on religious intolerance and dinosaurs

 

[kidwoo]

Yes I get it, use someone you think I support against my own position.

But this is actually very interesting, I hadn't even thought of it until now...

On every topic (climate change, social policy, gun control, socialism, and on and on) almost every one of you God hating atheists (how one can hate something that doesn't exist is beyond me... but, like, whatevs, I failed philosophy) has espoused the same as the pope here in this thread.

Except one of course.

And yet I disagree with him on just about every subject.

Why do you think that is???? Serious question.

I wasn't assuming you were catholic, I was just sharing the thoughts of a non-true christian.


Based on that list you just laid out though, I'm going to go with sean hannity as your luminary over the pope. He's probably not a true conservative™ though.

As far as why you 'diagree' with a magic italian who really does sound an awful lot like the long haired hippy you claim to follow the beliefs of..........I have no idea. Not much you've said in this thread makes a whole lot of sense. It's not up to me to explain this horrendous bastardization of christianity that loves guns, thinks "I got mine so fuck ya'll" when it comes to social policy, and thinks they're informed because they don't understand science.
That kind of shit is what leads to things like sharia law. Neither make a whole lot of sense to me.

But I think changleen has his answer by now.

 

[dtm1]

That's not how it works.

Fair enough.

I didn't mean that as a jab btw, that's how these posts read to me though.

Are not most of you atheist?

 

[dtm1]

Ignorance, bias and selfishness? Ignorance of science. Bias of thinking that people are all like you. Selfishness when you put yourself ahead of the entire population and future generations.

You missed the question.

Why does everyone here who is bashing Christ agree with the pope on every issue?
(other than Christ?)

 

[jonKranked]

we don't agree with the pope. the pope agrees with us.

 

[dtm1]

I wasn't assuming you were catholic, I was just sharing the thoughts of a non-true christian.
.

My mistake then. And I agree 100% that the pope is not a true Christian. Which is why he shares several of the same views expressed here.

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there."

Those are the pope's words. That is not at all what Christ taught. Christ teaches that even when I try to do good, my motives are selfish and self serving. My "good deeds" are repugnant to a perfect God. My works get me nowhere. Christ's death for my sin is all that counts. And because He died for me, via true faith in that act and his resurrection, I will be inspired to do good. But it earns me nothing. That is what Christ teaches.

 

[jackalope]

I think we need a new species of christian: "Freedom Christian"

And for the record, if we could go back to the OG (i.e. "nation founding") version of Christianity and start burning witches again, I'd be down. I'd bet anything Ann Coulter has at least one broom in her closet.

 

[dtm1]

we don't agree with the pope. the pope agrees with us.

And I agree with you that the pope agrees with you.

 

[kidwoo]

Those are the pope's words. That is not at all what Christ taught. Christ teaches that even when I try to do good, my motives are selfish and self serving. My "good deeds" are repugnant to a perfect God.

It makes sense when you think about the loaves and fishes act.

When jesus said to the people: fuck all y'all, I got my sammich, and then ran up and hid in a tree.

And when he took the sight of that guy who could see and made him blind.


I mean if there's really one good overarching message from the new testament, the most obvious to me is certainly 'don't bother being nice to people'.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Fair enough.

I didn't mean that as a jab btw, that's how these posts read to me though.

Are not most of you atheist?

I only speak for myself. I'm a recovering Episcopalian. I am no more angry at god than I am at (SPOILER!) the easter bunny or Santa, and for the same reasons. They don't exist and have no actual bearing on the direction of the universe, or my life.

 

[dtm1]

I wasn't assuming you were catholic, I was just sharing the thoughts of a non-true christian.


Based on that list you just laid out though, I'm going to go with sean hannity as your luminary over the pope. He's probably not a true conservative™ though.

As far as why you 'diagree' with a magic italian who really does sound an awful lot like the long haired hippy you claim to follow the beliefs of..........I have no idea. Not much you've said in this thread makes a whole lot of sense. It's not up to me to explain this horrendous bastardization of christianity that loves guns, thinks "I got mine so fuck ya'll" when it comes to social policy, and thinks they're informed because they don't understand science.
That kind of shit is what leads to things like sharia law. Neither make a whole lot of sense to me.

But I think changleen has his answer by now.

Re: Sean Hannity, that guy bugs me as does Fox news.

Something that is really apparent here is this:

All you guys hold yourselves out as free thinking, liberal, tolerant, and enlightened...

And yet most have stereotyped me, been totally intolerant of my views, and personally attacked me...

So what's with the hypocrisy?

You all are entirely wrong about every assumption you've made about me:

-I don't agree with the pope.
-I'm not a republican.
- I don't think Christianity should be the government sanctioned religion of the US or any country.
- I have no problem with education and am quite educated myself.
-and on etc

So where's your enlightened, high minded, tolerant, accepting of everyone viewpoint?

Maybe you all should put the stereotypes down and address the issues with facts, instead of the problem you have with me that isn't even accurate.

My main point when I posted was not Christianity, but sharia law.

Yet as soon as I said "that word" you all saw red and went nuts on that one point. Why?

Shakespeare's Hamlet is coming to mind...
(That is especially for my angry friend @jackalope, the best this knuckle dragging inbred bible thumper could do for a literary reference )

 

[dtm1]

I only speak for myself. I'm a recovering Episcopalian. I am no more angry at god than I am at (SPOILER!) the easter bunny or Santa, and for the same reasons. They don't exist and have no actual bearing on the direction of the universe, or my life.

Well at least your consistent

 

[jackalope]

I only speak for myself. I'm a recovering Episcopalian. I am no more angry at god than I am at (SPOILER!) the easter bunny or Santa, and for the same reasons. They don't exist and have no actual bearing on the direction of the universe, or my life.

Laugh all you want, just remember who saved us from the xenomorphs

(and yes, I need to rewatch those 2 episodes)

 

[dtm1]

It makes sense when you think about the loaves and fishes act.

When jesus said to the people: fuck all y'all, I got my sammich, and then ran up and hid in a tree.

And when he took the sight of that guy who could see and made him blind.


I mean if there's really one good overarching message from the new testament, the most obvious to me is certainly 'don't bother being nice to people'.

I think I follow... If I'm way off here maybe not...

Here's my reply to what I think you're saying:

Christ's good deeds are entirely good, because he is God... And I didn't say not to do good deeds, just that the motivation is different and it doesn't earn me anything. However if I am a true Christian, I will perform good deeds.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Laugh all you want, just remember who saved us from the xenomorphs

Man, Sigourney Weaver has really let herself go.

 

[kidwoo]

So what's with the hypocrisy?

Like espousing the dangers of sharia law while at the same time adamantly clinging to the idea that you proudly live in a nation founded on religious principles, a religion with an equally spotty history of oppression and murder?

Yeah what's with that?

You have to understand that to someone as an outsider to both, they've shared some similarities.

 

[stoney]

Yes I get it, use someone you think I support against my own position.

But this is actually very interesting, I hadn't even thought of it until now...

On every topic (climate change, social policy, gun control, socialism, and on and on) almost every one of you God hating atheists (how one can hate something that doesn't exist is beyond me... but, like, whatevs, I failed philosophy) has espoused the same as the pope here in this thread.

Except one of course.

And yet I disagree with him on just about every subject.

Why do you think that is???? Serious question.

Where is Andy when you need him.

I don't think that you know exactly what an atheist is. An atheist is somebody who does not believe in a higher power. That is it. That simple.

I don't think that everybody here started as atheists. We got there as we learned more. I was a good solid bible thumper growing up, but reading the bible throughly fixed that. Do yourself a favor. Don't go to church for a month or two, so you can focus solely on the words of the book. Then read the book, cover to cover. Write down the points where you find conflicts (there are a lot) and where there are beliefs noted that you do not believe or agree with. Don't use the excuse of new testament vs. old testament, as they all make up the same book. Islam believes in the first two books and the Jesus was a prophet, but not the final prophet of Mohammed.

The more time you spend reading the book, not listening to a pastor echo chamber the things that you want to hear, the more you will learn about what you truly believe in. As an example, we had a man so versed in the bible that he could step in for his pastor without question. I think at one point he was a pastor, iirc. The more time he spent reading and looking at where the "true christians" in the US have gone, the farther away from the book he went. At this point, I believe he is Agnostic, as what is defined as christianity at this point is a bastardized version that oppresses women, promotes destruction of the planet (through denial of climate change and never ending war), and outright hate (Islam, gays, etc.).

Jesus was a socialist by the text book definition. When I was growing up, a big part of our church activities were not about hating those things we did not like. They were about reaching out and helping people in need; no cares about race, creed, religion, etc. That version of christianity in this country is gone, and you espouse this in the form of hate. A 'true christian' as you call them, should look for how they can help others - welfare, education, healthcare, etc.