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Is GM completely hosed?

rockwool

rockwool

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Apr 19, 2004
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Can't put the vast blame on the unions for this, they can only play a minor part. This actually says a little about the climate you live in; that those at the rudder manage to divert the blame. How is this possible?

You can't blame the unions for this like if no other major car producing country didn't have them; Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, Korea, and probably many more. Why don't those countries have the same problems?
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

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ohio said:
How did American automakers end up with Union problems but Japanese automakers didn't?
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because GM has been around for over 100 years and most Japanese mfg's started to sell their product here in the states since the 60's.


oh, and theyre better at business apparently
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

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rockwool said:
You can't blame the unions for this like if no other major car producing country didn't have them; Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, Korea, and probably many more. Why don't those countries have the same problems?
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are their unions as greedy as ours?

do they offer great deals like the UAW's Jobs Bank and make 95% of their pay after getting laid off?

probably not
 
Samirol

Samirol

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IH8Rice said:
are their unions as greedy as ours?

do they offer great deals like the UAW's Jobs Bank and make 95% of their pay after getting laid off?

probably not
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Our unions look like anorexic midgets in a boxing match compared to unions/socialist parties in other countries. The main difference is that our unions didn't create their own political party to challenge those in power, they negotiated and got screwed.
 
rockwool

rockwool

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IH8Rice said:
are their unions as greedy as ours?

do they offer great deals like the UAW's Jobs Bank and make 95% of their pay after getting laid off?

probably not
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I wanna recolect that people that get laid off get 100% for a full year (depending on how long they've worked perhaps). I know a nurse and an officer that got that. Normally, if they sack you, it's 100% for three months, but this is not the same as being laid off, is it?

Still, the executives have shown the way with their salaries, bonuses, and parachutes. Monkey see, monkey do.
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

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rockwool said:
I wanna recolect that people that get laid off get 100% for a full year (depending on how long they've worked perhaps). I know a nurse and an officer that got that. Normally, if they sack you, it's 100% for three months, but this is not the same as being laid off, is it?

Still, the executives have shown the way with their salaries, bonuses, and parachutes. Monkey see, monkey do.
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no, getting fired and getting laid off are different.
 
Toshi

Toshi

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Oct 23, 2001
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IH8Rice said:
autoblog and jalopnik do a better job at the coverage
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seriously?

autoblog is dry and has a very pro-industry bias. jalopnik is written and laid out by 5 year olds who drool over everything and post all sorts of junk (literally) when the idea flits through their heads.

TTAC is perhaps bailout-obsessed and they don't review many cars, per se, but their ongoing big 3 deathwatch articles have been prescient and their snarky but grounded commentary has never been more apt. they also have much more restraint in posting press releases.
 
ohio

ohio

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IH8Rice said:
because GM has been around for over 100 years and most Japanese mfg's started to sell their product here in the states since the 60's.


oh, and theyre better at business apparently
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And what happened in those 40 initial years that put them at such a disadvantage? Given that disadvantage, why were American automakers so dominant in the 50s and 60s?

If they were at such an inherent and insurmountable competitive disadvantage, why didn't they liquidate their assets which would have had a higher valuation than the company itself?
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

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ohio said:
And what happened in those 40 initial years that put them at such a disadvantage? Given that disadvantage, why were American automakers so dominant in the 50s and 60s?

If they were at such an inherent and insurmountable competitive disadvantage, why didn't they liquidate their assets which would have had a higher valuation than the company itself?
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they were dominate in the 50's and 60's because there were really no form of competition out there. with the japanese makers just making a foot hold in the US market around that time, they started out behind the 8ball in comparison to the big three
 
rockwool

rockwool

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IH8Rice said:
they were dominate in the 50's and 60's because there were really no form of competition out there. with the japanese makers just making a foot hold in the US market around that time, they started out behind the 8ball in comparison to the big three
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Yup, and the purchasing power of people in other parts of the world was far from as equal as it is today; fewer could afford to buy cars. Although, the biggest reason must the lack of quality. Look at the Brittish auto industry to see what a similar lack of quality meant to companies that didn't have the advantage of the big three.
 
DaveW

DaveW

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jimmydean said:
Back on topic:

To get a feel for just how hosed GM is, look at the Aveo.

Being a cheap bastard, I tend to rent small cars. My wife and I rented a car for the weekend and they gave us an Aveo. It was brand new, and a total turd. The interior was crap, the level of road noise was awful, it rode like a brick. We drove it about 10 miles before returning it.

When we got back to the rental car place, they said "we just got a Yaris, will that work?" Wow, what a vastly different experience. The Yaris was awesome, seriously. If they made a 4 door hatch, I would buy one.

For 2 cars trying to hit the same market, they couldn't be further apart. The Honda Fit is even nicer the the Yaris, but it is about $2000 more. I'm guessing the Yaris is still solid after 5 years vs. the Aveo having a shelf life of about 3 years tops.
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Hmmm Toyota do make a 5 door hatch, the local dealership sells at the moment for NZ$ 19k (about $11k USD).
 
rockwool

rockwool

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ohio said:
For a pot-smoking communist hippy, you sure are a consumer whore.
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I like design in general, architecture, interior design, details y'know. But I do fear the day that I win a big one on the lotto. There will be battles between the ascetic and the whore within me... If the win is big enough, I'm buying a TV station. :P

DaveW said:
Hmmm Toyota do make a 5 door hatch, the local dealership sells at the moment for NZ$ 19k (about $11k USD).
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The Avensis, it's about the same size as the new Audi A4 wagon.
 
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IH8Rice

IH8Rice

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damn...now they are begging for $6.8bil from canada?
they should go to japan to ask for mercy funding.
 
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Toshi

Toshi

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where's the map for the big 3 going under ch 11 or ch 7 and having their assets taken over by SAIC or Toyota? they're not going to vaporize when they go bankrupt. yes, when.
 
Samirol

Samirol

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Toshi said:
where's the map for the big 3 going under ch 11 or ch 7 and having their assets taken over by SAIC or Toyota? they're not going to vaporize when they go bankrupt. yes, when.
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Well, the auto makers going into bankruptcy isn't like the airlines going into bankruptcy, because getting a flight is a short term purchase, it won't affect you 5 years down the line if you flew on a defunct airline.

Almost every car maker that has filed for bankruptcy has gone out of business, and Chapter 11 would almost certainly mean liquidation. One recent survey showed that 80% of people wouldn't consider doing business with an auto manufacturer if they file for bankruptcy.

Buying a car from a bankrupted company has long term effects, and it will cause sales to drop even further, the point of the map is so it shows that how well the Big Three do will affect the entire nation, not just Michigan.
 
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Toshi

Toshi

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Samirol said:
Well, the auto makers going into bankruptcy isn't like the airlines going into bankruptcy, because getting a flight is a short term purchase, it won't affect you 5 years down the line if you flew on a defunct airline.

Almost every car maker that has filed for bankruptcy has gone out of business, and Chapter 11 would almost certainly mean liquidation. One recent survey showed that 80% of people wouldn't consider doing business with an auto manufacturer if they file for bankruptcy.

Buying a car from a bankrupted company has long term effects, and it will cause sales to drop even further, the point of the map is so it shows that how well the Big Three do will affect the entire nation, not just Michigan.
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put down the fearmongering koolaid. that 80% stat is bunk as people aren't likely to buy either from a company that's on the public dole and is in danger at any point of having the rug pulled out from under it and going under. and btw chapter 11 doesn't mean liquidation. that's chapter 7. chapter 11 with prearranged debtor in possession financing is the only way to go.

oh, and a final point: you think jobs are going to be saved if the big 2.8 get bailed out? think again. they'll "rightsize" away thousands of jobs in a jiffy.
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

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Feb 12, 2003
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i seem to recall AA filed for ch 11, and when i flew this wknd they were tip-top; certainly better than usair
 
ohio

ohio

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Nov 26, 2001
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I'd love for us to place our bailout bets on, say, Ford, break apart and restructure the debt on the other two, and let Tesla become the 2nd biggest American automaker.

edit: which leaves me with the thought that the big 3 should thunderdome. Seriously. Let it be known we will only bail out one of them, and let them all make their case as to why they're more deserving than the other two. It's bull**** that they think because one of them gets a bailout they all do. Business should be cutthroat, and watching these three hold hands and sing Cumbaya makes we want to stuff a dub-deuce down each of their throats.
 
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$tinkle

$tinkle

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Feb 12, 2003
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if ever there were an auto manufacturer that deserved to create the volt, it's tesla
 
ohio

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
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SF, CA
$tinkle said:
if ever there were an auto manufacturer that deserved to create the volt, it's tesla
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****ing kill me if they come out with any of the following:
Joule
Amp
Ampere
Farad
Ohm
Siemens
Coulomb
Watt
Weber
or
Henry
 
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